Fire - Gone in 180 seconds

[AusCan]

Here is an article describing the loss of a trawler due to an electrical fire. It really makes you think about how unprepared many of us are.

Gone in 180 seconds!

 

[Bruce B]

That is nightmare material!
Bruce

 

[swampu]

Damn, Those pictures bring back some memories. I've read a couple of articles that point to the source of the fire in the battery banks. The rose fire started in the batteries. Makes since. Good find AC

 

[psneeld]

The last close call I had was also battery started to cook at 3 AM. It was almost to hot to touch.


Thankfully my cheapo, household CO alarm woke me up 3 times before I could locate the smell of the gasses from the battery....so I pulled it to the dock and saw that it was starting to cool from disconnecting it and getting it out in the wind..


8D battery...so I wasn't too enthused at 3 AM but it beat the alternative....

 

[Art]

Ouch, Ouch, Ouch... I'll find time to read full article. TY for posting

 

[caltexflanc]

Reminds me of a few quick lessons/comments

Automatic ER extinguishing systems are good. The guy in the story had to open it up and expose himself to the flames and smoke. Would an AER have stopped his fire? Most of them, probably not from the sounds of it but would have bought him some more time for sure, and lessened his exposure and risk. I was lucky to have two systems on my Hatt, one for the main ERs and one for the generator and utility room which also had a bunch of batteries in it. Each equipped with internal and external alarms as well.

Batteries and attendant electrical connections.. remind me of the lyric from "Tommy" : "See me, feel me, touch me.." how often do you take warmth tests (by hand and/or thermometer) of these, especially when under load? Most chargers have a temperature sensor with ability to have readout on a remote... ever look at that on a regular basis?. Issues like the one in the article are not often sudden, but develop over time.

How fast can you abandon ship? We tried to make a habit of having the Whaler tied off to the swim platform as much as possible, even in port. When anchoring or mooring, launching it was part of the process. Admittedly, the main reason was because we liked to use it as much as possible, but the abandon ship aspect was always there. Fire or sinking prevents access to dinghy? Up to the flying bridge and the life raft, if possible.

Regardless, how quick can you get to your PFDs and ditch bag in the middle of the night? Can you get out of the boat from your stateroom? Our Hatt had two large portlights/escape hatches in the transom directly to the swim platform. Even we could fit through them. The dinghy was kept preloaded with safety and some survival gear.

 

[mbevins]

Reminds me of a few quick lessons/comments

Automatic ER extinguishing systems are good. The guy in the story had to open it up and expose himself to the flames and smoke. Would an AER have stopped his fire? Most of them, probably not from the sounds of it but would have bought him some more time for sure, and lessened his exposure and risk. I was lucky to have two systems on my Hatt, one for the main ERs and one for the generator and utility room which also had a bunch of batteries in it. Each equipped with internal and external alarms as well.

Batteries and attendant electrical connections.. remind me of the lyric from "Tommy" : "See me, feel me, touch me.." how often do you take warmth tests (by hand and/or thermometer) of these, especially when under load? Most chargers have a temperature sensor with ability to have readout on a remote... ever look at that on a regular basis?. Issues like the one in the article are not often sudden, but develop over time.

How fast can you abandon ship? We tried to make a habit of having the Whaler tied off to the swim platform as much as possible, even in port. When anchoring or mooring, launching it was part of the process. Admittedly, the main reason was because we liked to use it as much as possible, but the abandon ship aspect was always there. Fire or sinking prevents access to dinghy? Up to the flying bridge and the life raft, if possible.

Regardless, how quick can you get to your PFDs and ditch bag in the middle of the night? Can you get out of the boat from your stateroom? Our Hatt had two large portlights/escape hatches in the transom directly to the swim platform. Even we could fit through them. The dinghy was kept preloaded with safety and some survival gear.

Interesting point...I keep my PFDs on the bridge. In a fire that's not good enough. How many of you keep a set in your state room? Particularly those of us with aft cabin escape hatches

 

[bayview]

. Indeed, what had happened was that major short circuit had occurred when a cell in one of the deep cycle batteries had collapsed and instantaneously, the whole system was on drain.

Right there is a demonstration of the danger of paralleled batteries. One cell shorts and all the other batteries see it as a load and dump current into it sometimes overheating it enough to start a fire .


Electrical fires can not be extinguished until the current can be turned off.

 

[mbevins]

Right there is a demonstration of the danger of paralleled batteries. One cell shorts and all the other batteries see it as a load and dump current into it sometimes overheating it enough to start a fire .

Electrical fires can not be extinguished until the current can be turned off.

If your suggesting that we eliminate parallel batteries please do tell us how.

 

[bayview]

Ideally they would be independently switched outside the ER.

 

[cardude01]

So, since my battery switches are in the pilot house, if I ran there and turned them all off would I stop all the current? Or in a disaster like this would those switched become shorted somehow?

 

[ksanders]

If your suggesting that we eliminate parallel batteries please do tell us how.

Use large enough batteries to just series them together to make up a house bank.

I have parallel batteries as well, but might re-think that when my bank needs replacing.

 

[sbu22]

“...... the cut-offs were on the fuse board at the for’ard end of the engine room, which on all boats are pretty pokey by nature, and in a blaze you just cannot get to them!”

Exactly what I had. Installed remote disconnects operated from the FB helm. Otherwise, it was duckwalk through the ER and, over the battery banks, attempt tp operate the switches. While things are burning.

I can still conjure up scenarios where this won't help, but for many instances (I think) the remotes could help a lot.

 

[what_barnacles]

If your suggesting that we eliminate parallel batteries please do tell us how.

You could fuse each battery before connecting it to the bus ( the bus being the battery cables tying them in parallel).

 

[hmason]

I just replaced 2 8D AGMs that service my inverter. I smelled the gas and they were too hot to touch for more than 15 seconds. My remote panel shows battery temperature and it was 115 degrees. I now check the temp morning and night. I also check temps on the start and gen batteries.

 

[bayview]

So, since my battery switches are in the pilot house, if I ran there and turned them all off would I stop all the current? Or in a disaster like this would those switched become shorted somehow?

depends on how they are wired. if the switch does the paralling then yes. if they are wired together then switched to the load then no.

 

[dhays]

You could fuse each battery before connecting it to the bus ( the bus being the battery cables tying them in parallel).

This is what I was thinking as well. We already have fuses at the battery bank to protect the wiring from the battery. There are some pretty simple ways of adding fuses at each battery to protect the interconnect cables. If you have the head room over the battery terminals, just use a terminal fuse.

Reminds me that I need to complete the diagramming of my electrical system.

 

[bayview]

You could fuse each battery before connecting it to the bus ( the bus being the battery cables tying them in parallel).

the problem is that a quick guess yields the shorted cell drain of a bad battery in parallel with a good battery might be in the range of 160 amps. If that is much more than your loads then it might work.



Here is how I guessed the 160 amps. One shorted cell cuts the output voltage by 12/6cells or 2V
Now if we have one good 12V battery in parallel with one 10V bad battery we have a 2v imbalance.

If the battery has 1000 CCA rating that says its equivalent internal resistance is 12V/1000A=0.12Ohms

So now as a first approximation we have 2V imbalance loading 0.012 Ohms giving 2V/0.012=166 Amps.

Those 166 Amps are what dumps into the bad battery and causes heating.

 

[oscar]

You could fuse each battery before connecting it to the bus ( the bus being the battery cables tying them in parallel).

This.

 

[caltexflanc]

This.

Really? I've never seen it done intra-bank. Besides, if a battery dead shorts, you got lots of trouble no matter what.

 

[dhays]

the problem is that a quick guess yields the shorted cell drain of a bad battery in parallel with a good battery might be in the range of 160 amps. If that is much more than your loads then it might work.

The fuse is there to protect the wire. Use the appropriate table to find the fuse that keep the cable from igniting. If the batteries catch fire, you are still toast, but a fuse. An keep the wiring from catching fire.

 

[bglad]

I think terminal fuses are a great idea! Very large battery banks have the potential to turn a small problem into a large one. Fuses should definitely be sized to protect cabling but there is no reason they have to be grossly more than the anticipated load. Same goes for terminal fuses. Give a margin to avoid nuisance trips but immediate stop if a bad battery causes the whole bank to discharge into it.

I surveyed a trawler with a Cummins 480C. Its owner had installed a 350 amp fuse on his engine battery bank. Cranked his engine no problem and gave him peace of mind a short wouldn't result in a problem. Made good sense what he did.

Seems that energy storage capacity is the objective not maximum output. Sizing fuses to protect against intra-system faults is a good plan that should be possible without causing issues with day to day use.

This is what I was thinking as well. We already have fuses at the battery bank to protect the wiring from the battery. There are some pretty simple ways of adding fuses at each battery to protect the interconnect cables. If you have the head room over the battery terminals, just use a terminal fuse.

Reminds me that I need to complete the diagramming of my electrical system.

 

[sdowney717]

“As soon as I saw smoke from the battery isolator I tried to go back to one or off, but it had fused inside by that time and was rendered useless. "

Good reason to have big bolt cutters nearby to cut big battery cables.

Battery fuses would blow stopping a dead short, the internally shorted battery would get hot but not likely to catch fire.

Odd thing that he switches on both banks, so switch on combining banks then it instantly short circuits. The bad battery suddenly the cell collapses? very odd, never in years have I seen that. I can easily imagine such a devastating short circuit if the polarities of the banks were reversed one to the other, so then joining them with the switch, an instant high current short and fire.

A collapsed cell in a 12 volt battery will instantly bring that battery down to 10 volts. So connecting another 12 battery to the battery with 10 volts will only be a 2 vdc difference, and the current flow would heat up the 10 volt dying battery more than a short piece of battery cable.

How many of you have had a battery fail while connected to a good battery in parallel, and there is not a fire, or a melted battery cable? I have had this several times. The bad battery, the electrolyte can get hot, but where is the fire?

I have never had a battery go into a complete dead short with every cell in a dead short with zero resistance.

 

[psneeld]

I have seen dozens of failed batteries in both aviation and marine....all to the point of smoking and sizzling.....but never a fire from just the battery.

But then again...I am sure there have been some.

Just like whale induced sinkings, lightning strikes, deaths from CO from a boat down the docks, bacon grease fires and ugly marine curtains, Ying from heart attacks at sea, etc...etc....

Just can't get into the TF hysteria that every boat is a time bomb, gonna fail because I didn't follow someone else's expert opinion, every new piece of gear makes me safer than using hard won experience, etc....etc....

It's been said many times by better men than I....."it's the bullet you don't see that gets you"....

 

[caltexflanc]

the internally shorted battery would get hot but not likely to catch fire.

I've seen the aftermath of them exploding.

I'm still interested in who has actually put inline fuses between batteries in a bank.

 

[bayview]

I agree with the above that failed batteries seldom explode or catch fire but I have seen several get very hot, emit fumes and vent battery acid.


My intent is not to scare folks but point out that real problems do occur with parallel batteries so folks can be alert to the issue. strange smells and an unusual charging rate are indicators.

 

[psneeld]

But even paralleled, I can't recall ever seeing anything more than one battery affected.

Not saying it can't hapoen....but I know more people hit by lightning.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Still the most critical advice comes from Burt Bacharach in Promises, Promises.....

Knowing When to Leave
Go while the going is good
Knowing when to leave may be the smartest thing anyone can learn.
Go!

 

[what_barnacles]

I have seen dozens of failed batteries in both aviation and marine....all to the point of smoking and sizzling.....but never a fire from just the battery.

But then again...I am sure there have been some.

I had a 72 impala that had a battery catch fire. I pulled out of traffic into a new car lot because flames were coming out of the hood. You would not believe how many salesmen came running with a fire extinguisher.

I've also seen a battery catch fire and subsequently detonate on a tow motor in the service.

 

[psneeld]

I had a 72 impala that had a battery catch fire. I pulled out of traffic into a new car lot because flames were coming out of the hood. You would not believe how many salesmen came running with a fire extinguisher.

I've also seen a battery catch fire and subsequently detonate on a tow motor in the service.

I said repeatedly that it could happen...but really, how often and why?

Hundreds of millions of batteries in use...and how many and why eventually catch fire?

I know of plenty of other issues that boats have...does everyone scurry around and make their boat perfect in every way?

No...use best practices to a point, keep an eye on things and enjoy with a backup pkan.

If every little thing was required by insurance companies and even common sense...most of us couldn't afford boating or have the boat to a point where we could get underway.

Sure do the simple things that keep us 95 percent safe...that last five percent will drive most people nuts.

For those that don't cruise a bunch or live aboard...do they make the rest of their lives 95 percent safe? Health, home, car, activities...etc...etc...?