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09-13-2019, 07:05 AM
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#1
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Guru
City: Deltaville
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,061
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Fire
Most boat owners in the US, and many elsewhere, have heard about the recent tragic dive boat fire in Southern California, with the resultant loss of life. Many of my clients and readers have inquired about regulations regarding fire, firefighting, smoke alarms and escape routes.
Like most others in this industry I anxiously await the full NTSB report, which will hopefully detail the cause of the fire. At the moment there is speculation that it may have been caused by rechargeable lithium ion battery, like that used in a phone or camera (it was a dive boat so no doubt there were many underwater cameras, lights etc, all with Li Ion batteries). I've encountered overheated Li Ion batteries, having had one catch fire in the toolbox of my pick-up truck on one occasion a few years ago.
Until the full report (a preliminary report has been released, the link is included here) is released all we can do is speculate. However, there are things you can do to prevent such a tragedy aboard your own vessel.
Make sure you have working, up to date (most common battery-powered household units are OK to use aboard, with some caveats, see link below, however, they should be replaced every 5 years) smoke detectors with fresh batteries. You should have one on both sides of every door, as well as in engineering spaces, and behind electrical panels. The last time I wrote about this was after another tragic onboard fire.
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/s...oke-detectors/
Make sure you have fire extinguishers, more than the USCG-required minimum. They are relatively inexpensive, you should have one in every cabin, and no fire extinguisher should be more than three large steps away.
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/p...created-equal/
Make certain your fixed engine room and other engineering space fire extinguishers are up to date, inspected, and pressure gauges are in the green. I recently inspected a 3 year old vessel, whose safety pins had never been removed from fire extinguishers in the engine room and machinery space; which means neither of these units could have been discharged manually.
https://vimeo.com/160266778
Preliminary NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ary-report.pdf
Recent Coast Guard Safety bulletin
https://images.saymedia-content.com/...y-bulletin.pdf
ABYC is silent on escape routes, but NFPA 302 isn’t, it says...
NFPA 302, Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure and Commercial Motor Craft, 2010 Edition
Chapter 4 Hull
4.1 General Arrangement.
4.1.1
The hull shall be arranged so that all compartments are accessible and all escape hatches are unobstructed and readily accessible.
4.1.1.1
Every boat having enclosed accommodation spaces shall have a readily accessible and unobstructed means of egress.
4.1.1.2
Every boat having enclosed accommodation spaces shall have a second accessible means of egress if it is possible for one exit to
be blocked by a fire in a galley or machinery area.
4.1.1.3
The means of egress in 4.1.1.1 and 4.1.1.2 shall provide for minimum clear opening dimensions of 14 in. × 18 in. (36.8 cm × 47
cm) (rectangular); or 18 in. (45.7 cm) diameter (circular); or 270 in.2 (1741 cm2) with a minimum dimension of 141
⁄2 in. (36.8 cm)
(oval).
4.1.1.4
Any hatch that is required for egress shall have a means of being operated from the inside and a means of being operated from the
outside when not secured from the inside.
4.1.1.5
All hinged hatches shall have a means or method to support the hatch in an open position
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09-13-2019, 08:20 AM
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#2
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Guru
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pacific Myst
Vessel Model: West Bay 4500
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,402
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I particularly like this part of Steve's post .....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio
.......................
You should have one on both sides of every door, as well as in engineering spaces, and behind electrical panels. The last time I wrote about this was after another tragic onboard fire...............
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Reading Causes of Boat fires - BoatUS and other sources DC electrical is the greatest cause of fires. I'll be putting a smoke detector in the electrical cabinet.
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09-13-2019, 08:48 AM
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#3
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,818
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It will be interesting to see if they can identify the cause of the fire. As an avid technical diver, it would seem to me the more likely cause would be a lithium battery powered canister light or scooter battery. The canister lights can be in excess of 20 amp hours, but the scooter batteries can be as large as a car battery. While the numbers of both in their largest sizes are relatively small, there have been incidents with both starting fires. The problem with some of the lithium type batteries is that once a cell starts burning, the fire feeds very quickly off of the rest of the battery pack. With the large scooter batteries, trying to charge them in a shorter time requires higher amperage chargers, which can heat up a faulty cell faster. Lots of increased risk with lithium batteries.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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09-13-2019, 08:59 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: SchoolHouse Branch
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 551
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Toxic gases are produced when many modern materials burn. As an example, the gases from burning plastic pipe can kill everyone in a room. Survivors have reported an inability to move even though they were aware of the fire and the need to run. They were paralyzed by the toxins and would burn to death if not rescued.
http://web.mit.edu/parmstr/Public/NR.../cbd144_e.html
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09-13-2019, 10:08 AM
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#5
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Guru
City: Columbia City, OR & Mulege, BCS
Vessel Name: Imagine
Vessel Model: Farrell 34
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 846
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Good advice!
In my experience, the weakest link is not the batteries, it is the chargers, cabling & connectors that are used to charge batteries on board. I have upgraded all on my boat after a cheap thin cable got kinked at the connector, got hot, and started to let the smoke out of the wire.
If the device you are charging (like a phone) shows a message like "slow charging" that means the cable and/or charger are limiting out on voltage/current (bad!) So feel around to see of any of the parts are hot/warm.
If you are leaving devices on at night (like anchor alarms, for example) be sure those devices are securely mounted to the boat and the parts are not hot during normal operation.
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09-13-2019, 10:19 AM
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#6
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Guru
City: Deltaville
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,061
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Correction, there's an error in my previous post, it should have said, "ABYC isn't silent on this subject..." It is covered in chapter H3
3.5.1 Enclosed accommodation compartments or designated sleeping compartments shall have:
3.5.1.1 a readily accessible and unobstructed means of exit, and
3.5.1.2 a second readily accessible means of exit to the open air if the main exit leads through or over an engine space or directly past a cooking appliance.
3.5.2 The means of exit shall have the following minimum clearing characteristics:
3.5.2.1 circular shape: diameter of at least 18 in (457 mm),
3.5.2.2 any other shape: a minimum dimension of 14.5 in (368 mm) and minimum area of 270 in2 (0.174 m2). The exit shall be large enough for a 14.5 in (368 mm) diameter circle to be inscribed.
NOTE: The circle should be inscribed after taking in consideration any restrictions including hinges, latches, and stays, etc.
3.5.2.3. The vertical distance to the means of exit shall not exceed 47.5 in (1.2 m). If cushions or mattresses are below the means of exit, the distance is taken from the compressed material.
3.5.2.4 Any hatch that is required for a means of exit shall have a means of being operated from the inside, and from the outside when secured and unlocked.
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09-13-2019, 01:57 PM
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#7
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,121
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With the possible culprit being thought to be portable device Li-ion batteries, how should we feel about using much bigger Li-ion house batteries. Seems to me that if there is risk of fire/explosion with small Li-ions then there may be a risk of much bigger fire/explosion while charging, say, an 8D Li-ion.
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09-13-2019, 02:19 PM
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#8
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,129
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From SteveDs post
Make certain your fixed engine room and other engineering space fire extinguishers are up to date, inspected, and pressure gauges are in the green. I recently inspected a 3 year old vessel, whose safety pins had never been removed from fire extinguishers in the engine room and machinery space; which means neither of these units could have been discharged manually.
Before I retired from the CG Aux, I did vessel safety check and almost never found a fixed system that was up to date on the inspection. The only ones that I found up to date were people that had just taken a boating safety class from the auxiliary. A friend had a boat he stored by mine. Each year he would take both our halon bottles to a certified inspection company. He sold his boat this year and asked me to represent him during the survey. The surveyor was amazed when he checked the halon. He said it was the first one in over 10 years that was up to date inspection wise.
This is something that everyone should take seriously since the only way to make sure the halon is still in the bottle is to weigh it. It costs me $10 for the yearly inspection.
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Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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09-13-2019, 02:28 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Port Townsend, WA
Vessel Name: Traveler
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 46 LRC
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,573
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Appreciate the timely and thoughtful post, Steve!
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09-13-2019, 02:54 PM
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#10
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Moderator Emeritus
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Vessel Name: DOS PECES
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,263
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With todays technology it makes sense to incorporate smoke detectors as Steve indicated in the engine room, and behind electrical panels.
These can be difficult to hear from a berth maybe 40 feet away and behind a couple of doors.
A great solution is to use smoke alarms that wirelessly network together so that when one detects smoke they all alert, or that they trigger a loud siren.
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09-13-2019, 05:29 PM
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#11
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,129
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I just ordered 4 wireless smoke detectors. I may end up putting one more up on the flybridge so we can hear them underway.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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09-13-2019, 05:45 PM
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#12
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Veteran Member
City: Ft.Lauderdale
Vessel Name: Sandpiper
Vessel Model: 1976 Marine Trader D/C
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 40
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Question for all the electrical guru guys out there.
You hear a lot about "electrical purity" from gensets and the effect on today's electronics. Would that have any bearing on the charging of LI batteries?
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09-13-2019, 07:51 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,021
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Many fires start from overloaded circuits. A good preventative program is to read your power panel and other connections with a hand held temperature reading gun.
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09-13-2019, 08:30 PM
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#14
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TF Site Team
City: MX, thru Canal to Bahamas
Vessel Name: Muirgen
Vessel Model: 50' Beebe Passagemaker
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 3,384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisjs
With the possible culprit being thought to be portable device Li-ion batteries, how should we feel about using much bigger Li-ion house batteries. Seems to me that if there is risk of fire/explosion with small Li-ions then there may be a risk of much bigger fire/explosion while charging, say, an 8D Li-ion.
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Lithium house batteries are generally LiFeP04 (Lithium Iron Phosphate), not standard Lithium ion. If you research the difference, you will find that LiFeP04 are much safer than other Lithium batteries.
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09-13-2019, 08:37 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Vessel Model: Currently Boatless
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 397
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I wanted to clarify that the wireless smoke / CO detectors do NOT need WiFi. They link to themselves through their own system. I just bought 8 new smoke/CO detectors (Kidde) due to the fact that I’d never hear an alarm in the bow, if I was in the aft cabin. Now, if one alarm goes off, they ALL go off. They are powered by their own battery and are super easy to install. You can buy them by the pair from Home Depot for about $80.
Money well spent.
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09-13-2019, 08:56 PM
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#16
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Guru
City: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Vessel Name: Gumbo
Vessel Model: 2003 Monk 36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,882
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A fire extinguisher cylinder, full or empty, would make a good window breaking tool if it comes to that.
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09-13-2019, 11:26 PM
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Vessel Name: DOS PECES
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave
I just ordered 4 wireless smoke detectors. I may end up putting one more up on the flybridge so we can hear them underway.
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Good idea!
As Steve pointed out a smoke detector behind your electrical panel is a Great idea!
I am a firm believer that many or most things that catch on fire on a boat smoke first, and catching a fire in the smoke phase might just save your boat or your life.
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09-13-2019, 11:35 PM
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#18
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Guru
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 5,482
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Quote:
. I recently inspected a 3 year old vessel, whose safety pins had never been removed from fire extinguishers in the engine room and machinery space; which means neither of these units could have been discharged manually
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Why would not have removing the pins prevent using them?
Over here the pins are held in with light fishing line easily broken when pulling the pin.........but then the pins fall out, get lost and triggers are inadvertently bumped.
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09-13-2019, 11:46 PM
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#19
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,129
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I ordered 4 detectors, the type that detects smoldering fire, one each for the engine room, electrical panel and the 2 cabins. If when I test them underway I cannot hear them on the flybridge I will get another one and put it up there. I got the wireless ones that announce what room the fire is in. The only problem is the choices don’t really correlate to a boat but rather a house.
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Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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09-14-2019, 03:33 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
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My visitors are briefed that in case of a fire, all the extinguishers, buckets, axes etc. are there to get them off the boat. No heroics, insurance does that. Squirt, run, life jackets (grand kids call them “boat coats”), the hand-held radios then dinghy or swim.
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Don't believe everything that you think.
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