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Old 10-25-2014, 07:02 PM   #21
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Bottom machine ?

Brain,
Thanks. Got something to read on a very rainy day.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:27 PM   #22
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Brian,
Read the reports. The first two were basically a waste of time but the third was excellent. The inclusion of Rocna's whining about their competitor not making them the star of the show could have been dropped but I can understand why the author wanted to explain in some way the Rocna's terrible performance.

That said the rest of the article was well written and quite to very objective. His grouping together anchors w similar design and more importantly .. performance gave good comprehensive scope to the issue. He even posted good pictures of the anchors .. not always easy to find.

And he gave proper credit to the Ultra and Mantus for their excellent consistency in the test.

Something that occurred to me is that the quite heavy chain could have, and IMO probably did sink below the bottom enough to affect the attitude of the shank to interrupt the normal setting. A roll bar anchor upside down w it's shank held below the surface of the bottom may very well indeed cause the anchor not to set. One can only guess why this did not happen to the Mantus. The Mantus roll bar is quite a bit different that all the rest and it looks to me as it could be more likely to drag upside down .. but it didn't ..? I have a theory though.

So in a very good test the 1938 designed Danforth anchor did outperform lots of much later designs, one of them the most popular of the day to show that older anchors have plenty of merit and the anchor you have on your boat may not need replacing. Especially if it's a Danforth.
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Old 10-25-2014, 09:59 PM   #23
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Fine Art of Anchoring

We used our Rocna anchor in the Chesapeake early this summer but never quite found the goo like you do down here on the TenTom waterway, where this morning I had so much mud stick to the rode and anchor that it took a considerable amount of time to half clean them off.

By the end of the day the residual mud had stained my foredeck pretty bad that it will take a lot of elbow grease to bring it back, I would have done more cleaning when fresh as I pulled away from the anchorage but being solo in skinny water has other more important challenges.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:01 AM   #24
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There are several skippers in the Puget Sound area that use the Super Max anchor and think it's great. The super Max has three protrusions that are very much like the fluke end on my XYZ and it may be even less likely to penetrate a rocky bottom. But people use the Super Max and I would think that would say even more so than my using my XYZ that most all bottoms in the area are mud .. or at least soft.

Yeah, I'd describe the SuperMax as looking similar to the business end of a backhoe. Wouldn't call it attractive

I think the weighting is what mostly causes it to land properly, but I think the outside points of the "bucket" can also influence the thing to tip itself into the correct orientation. Just theorizing, though. OTOH, I've never had it obviously land upside down... or if it did, it must have righted itself so quickly I couldn't tell otherwise.

Ours has worked well for us here on the Chesapeake -- mostly mud or various consistencies, sometimes mud covered with leaves, sometimes oyster shells -- but I don't have any experience with it in other holding grounds.

-Chris
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:03 AM   #25
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And yes, Chris, the University of Maryland and the crew of the Rachel Carson led us to the site. Thanks!

Thought I remembered that correctly. Didn't you once post the coordinates? Not sure, but thought I'd seen those somewhere...

-Chris
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:12 AM   #26
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from the Chesapeake Holding thread...post 3

Chesapeake Anchor Holding Power Test

The location is at approximately Lat: 3818'58.49"N and Long: 7626'48.94"W

Thanks,
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:30 AM   #27
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from the Chesapeake Holding thread...post 3

Chesapeake Anchor Holding Power Test

The location is at approximately Lat: 3818'58.49"N and Long: 7626'48.94"W

Thanks,
Brian

Ah. Glad it wasn't a snake... Dunno how I missed it...

Looks like the chart says approx. 40' depth, nearest bottom marking (a "tad" slightly WSW from there) simply says soft.

-Chris
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:42 AM   #28
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So right in the outer entrance channel to Solomons. For obvious reasons, have never anchored there. But right where the chart is marked "soft". Between two "hard" areas in the path of the outflow from the creek, like so many spots on the Chessie where one does anchor, though some are labeled "silt" or "shells" among other things and mixtures such as mud/shells. It's fun and often instructive, when in doubt, to take a big pointed pyramid sinker, coat it with silicon grease and throw it overboard to see what you've got down below.
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:18 AM   #29
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Ah. Glad it wasn't a snake... Dunno how I missed it...

Looks like the chart says approx. 40' depth, nearest bottom marking (a "tad" slightly WSW from there) simply says soft.

-Chris
I know how...returning to that thread was traumatic enough...the first time around put me in a forum induced coma for days....
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:27 AM   #30
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Brian,
Read the reports. The first two were basically a waste of time but the third was excellent. The inclusion of Rocna's whining about their competitor not making them the star of the show could have been dropped but I can understand why the author wanted to explain in some way the Rocna's terrible performance.

That said the rest of the article was well written and quite to very objective. His grouping together anchors w similar design and more importantly .. performance gave good comprehensive scope to the issue. He even posted good pictures of the anchors .. not always easy to find.

And he gave proper credit to the Ultra and Mantus for their excellent consistency in the test.

Something that occurred to me is that the quite heavy chain could have, and IMO probably did sink below the bottom enough to affect the attitude of the shank to interrupt the normal setting. A roll bar anchor upside down w it's shank held below the surface of the bottom may very well indeed cause the anchor not to set. One can only guess why this did not happen to the Mantus. The Mantus roll bar is quite a bit different that all the rest and it looks to me as it could be more likely to drag upside down .. but it didn't ..? I have a theory though.

So in a very good test the 1938 designed Danforth anchor did outperform lots of much later designs, one of them the most popular of the day to show that older anchors have plenty of merit and the anchor you have on your boat may not need replacing. Especially if it's a Danforth.
Eric, there are a few more stories that will follow, and I expect that the one from the Sail magazine writer will be particularly hard-hitting, so to speak, as he is a long-time cruiser and he is writing a book on anchoring. He was aboard for all 4 days of the testing, from start to finish, and we talked anchors from dinner Monday night through breakfast Saturday morning.

For the testing we used 20-ft of 3/8" G4 chain, which as I recall weighed about 30 lbs. I believe it had an effect on the "pivoting fluke" anchors (Danforth and Fortress) as at the long starting scope, it might have sunk the shank below the flukes and preventing setting in a couple of instances in the soft mud.

I would welcome hearing your theory as to why the Mantus roll bar anchor (and the Manson Supreme as well) consistently set better than the Rocna, I haven't a clue........

And yes, a 1938 anchor design did, in fact, achieve the highest tension over the course of 60+ tests, and an American one at that.
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:38 AM   #31
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Brian,
Read the reports. The first two were basically a waste of time but the third was excellent. The inclusion of Rocna's whining about their competitor not making them the star of the show could have been dropped but I can understand why the author wanted to explain in some way the Rocna's terrible performance.
I don't know...I thought Rocna's comments were a good illustration of how some companies won't let a bit of data get in the way of a persistent marketing meme.
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:59 PM   #32
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I think we are watching Groundhog Day.
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Old 10-26-2014, 01:43 PM   #33
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Well, I don't know about you guys, but I went to several schools for Fine Arts and I don't recall an anchoring course ever being offered. Sculpture, ceramics, drawing, painting, design, art history, etc, but no anchoring.

Interesting concept though...how would one anchor in the style of Jackson Pollock? Edvard Munch? Salvador Dali?
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Old 10-26-2014, 02:58 PM   #34
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The advantage of the Mantus roll bar in mud is that it's longer and presents more roll bar to the surface and thus is less likely to sink into the mud enough to prevent the anchor from setting. But then after setting the longer (bigger) roll bar reduces holding power as does the roll bar in any case. Not to misunderstand me is the fact that everything except the fluke reduces holding power. Shanks, stocks, ballast, roll bars and anything else that is not fluke reduces holding power. But not equally and many non fluke appendages add to holding power but none are as efficient at holding power as the fluke. However you've never seen an anchor that is 100% fluke as a rode attached directly to a fluke would not control the anchor sufficiently to do it's job. That's why I like the XYZ. It has less hardware attached to control it than any other anchor so for a given weight in steel the XYZ will have a larger fluke and as long as there is enough control to make it behave it will have more holding power. There is much more to it such as the shape of the fluke ect ect. The first sentence is the answer to your first question Brian. The rest is just thinking in text.

Your question about the Mantus and Supreme setting better than the Rocna can be answered in several ways. In your test it only about setting in Chesapeake mud. The Mantus fluke is extremely sharp and I'm guessing the shank angle or throat opening is wider. Have you seen the video from Mantus of some dude w a line about 12' long held chest high pulling along a Rocna on a beach? Well I'm sure the height of his hand and thus the end of the line is such that combined w the length establishes a level attitude of the anchor preventing it from getting a purchase on the beach. Maintaining tension on the line insured that the fluke tip would just skid along w/o any tendency to dive down ant set. A rather dramatic demonstration showing (incorrectly) that the anchor is worthless. Ironic in that Rocna dragged a CQR along a beach in much the same way to have the same affect. But the Mantus did better in your test because the RB didn't sink into the mud as much as the Rocna and Supreme. The Supreme did better because the whole shape of the back of the anchor (including the fluke and RB) is more round and the anchor has a lower CG. So the tendency for the Supreme to roll right side up is greater and the resistance to do so is less. Enough greater in your test to set consistently. Remember someone saying a fellow somewhere cut off his Supreme roll bar and the anchor set fine 95% of the time. The few failures may be due to the way he deployed the anchor. In time I'll have more on this when I whack off my Supreme RB but I intend to leave 2" of RB sticking up on each side at the fluke.

The above is my opinion only and I have no comment on Rocna's marketing meme, ground hog day or schools of fine arts. However I did minor end in art.

Oops ... I did ramble on a bit. That's what happens when you ask for my opinion.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
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from the Chesapeake Holding thread...post 3

Chesapeake Anchor Holding Power Test

The location is at approximately Lat: 3818'58.49"N and Long: 7626'48.94"W

Thanks,
Brian
Approximately??? That's +/- 2 feet
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Old 10-26-2014, 07:31 PM   #36
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They said the depth averaged 27'.
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Old 10-26-2014, 07:50 PM   #37
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Approximately??? That's +/- 2 feet
Hey I'm more of a Christopher Columbus type...West Indies...East Indies...12,500 miles amongst friends...what's the diff???

who needs stinking WAAS GPS...

drink more rum and navigation seems a lot easier, even if it's not..
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Old 10-27-2014, 12:51 AM   #38
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So in a very good test the 1938 designed Danforth anchor did outperform lots of much later designs, one of them the most popular of the day to show that older anchors have plenty of merit and the anchor you have on your boat may not need replacing. Especially if it's a Danforth.
That's the point I was making on another thread. Coming from my decades personal experience with Danforth and Danforth design anchors; set into many bottom types on both coasts. However, my input at that time was rudely discarded. I ceased input thereafter. Allowing attrition time needed to work its magic, as it now most certainly has!

Again I say: Fortress Anchors clearly appear to be the basic Danforth design on steroids.

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Old 10-27-2014, 07:20 AM   #39
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They said the depth averaged 27'.

Probably depends on how close they really were to that "approximate" location...

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Old 10-27-2014, 09:03 AM   #40
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Probably depends on how close they really were to that "approximate" location...

-Chris
We had five different "datums" or starting points for each series of tests. To insure that every anchor had a fresh sea bed, the research vessel Rachel Carson returned to the datum and then the pulls were made in an "azimuth" formation (image below).

The depth of the water was 26-28 ft.

Psneld, we recently exhibited at the 5 day US Sailboat Show in Annapolis, and the local drink of choice is a Painkiller with Pussers rum, and it is often served at after show hour parties on the docks.....although there are some exhibitors who don't wait that long . Deadly.
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