What? No discussion about the vast amount of data gained from the multi million dollar boon doggle to retrieve the data recorder? A total bust just like a few here predicted. Well, I guess it will play well in the upcoming movie. Somebody will profit, but it won't be the taxpayer.
Final report on El Faro
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SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
Lives were lost and the only thing that's worse than that is the CG isn't doing anything to protect the mariner.
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Lepke
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The captain was probably under pressure from Tote to meet port dates. How much pressure would determine if Tote is criminally responsible. The captain went right into the hurricane path that even novice captains could foresee.
No vessel is safe in a hurricane, even well outside the eye. He had rolling cargo, while secured, wasn't secured for the waves of a hurricane. He killed his own crew.
The CG is burdened to investigate events that result in major damage, sinkings and loss of life. While I also didn't care for the expense of recovering the black boxes, those boxes were the only witnesses. The CG is just doing their job.
No vessel is safe in a hurricane, even well outside the eye. He had rolling cargo, while secured, wasn't secured for the waves of a hurricane. He killed his own crew.
The CG is burdened to investigate events that result in major damage, sinkings and loss of life. While I also didn't care for the expense of recovering the black boxes, those boxes were the only witnesses. The CG is just doing their job.
psneeld
Guru
You never know till you retrieve it.
Sure you can assume and we know how tbat old expression ends....
Some guessed right this time ....but recorders are pretty well universal in transportation operating cockpits/ bridges/control stations because what is obvious to a few monday morning quarterbacks is often wrong or only a piece of professional accident investigation.
That from the resident union rep. I don't doubt for one second that you had many contentious encounters with management.
Oh, but the professionals most certainly did know in this case. It's a simple fact that the recorder was as rudimentary as it gets. I've been involved with many aircraft accident investigations. Everything of consequence (what's in the report) was established before the ship went down. The black boxes witnessed nothing not already known, and any investigator who looked at what could possibly be found on that recorder knew it. This was a politically motivated waste instigated by uniformed hysteria to appease a vocal minority. The experts decision not to retrieve the box was reversed by politics. Criminal.
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SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
Go cry your River elsewhere.
diver dave
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My only input is that human factors can play a big part. Yes, we knew the weather data, we knew already the ships track, we knew the essence of the radio traffic; but we didn't know until the transcripts were raised is what was in the captains head, the exact workload, who was on the bridge; much of which can be pertinent to the accident investigation.
It is a shame that the pointy end of blame is usually on the wrong end of the arrow.
I'm not the one whining about the report results. I believe the Coast Guard got it exactly right.
psneeld
Guru
I have been involved with aircraft and vessel accident investigations also , more so from a reviewing level to make sure they were thorough.
Luckily I saw only investigations that went to great lengths to make sure the truth was known.
I dont remember who said going after the box was a waste of time...anyone have the names or links?
Luckily I saw only investigations that went to great lengths to make sure the truth was known.
I dont remember who said going after the box was a waste of time...anyone have the names or links?
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angus99
Guru
You do seem to be whining about the cost of recovering the black box and how that will affect your taxes. Would you be satisfied with leaving the recorder on the bottom if your son or daughter were down there with it?
Yes I would...and that is exactly the sentiment of the Chief Engineer's father. Nothing to be gained but more pain given what was already known. Look it up.
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It didn't require that box to arrive at the truth and the subject matter experts knew it. Every investigation involves judgement calls. This one was made by meddling politics. The Board's initial decision was to not go after the box. Then some grandstanding Florida Congressman made a big stink and forced a reversal. Look it up.
SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
What do you do for a living
SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
So you had nothing to do with shipping. In any way, shape or form which is why you think the CG was right and the VDR should have been left alone.
diver dave
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If you don't pull the black box up on this disaster, when do you?
One thing to learn. Don't put the mic right near the ventian blinds (or whatever noise source they had to deal with). It took a team plus some DSP, IIRC just to get the transcript on paper. And some fraction of it still missing.
One thing to learn. Don't put the mic right near the ventian blinds (or whatever noise source they had to deal with). It took a team plus some DSP, IIRC just to get the transcript on paper. And some fraction of it still missing.
Flawed premise.
psneeld
Guru
Its slways easy to say how everyone knew there would be nothing on it....
Till that one investigation where a few words on a voice recorder changed the whole tone.
This is one of those "professional guesses" where someone gets to tell you "I told you so"....but in my world we would have gone after the box if there was a possibility there was evidence on it.
Using the Navy to get it may or may not have cost that much, that ai didnt look up to see what was normal versus supplemental budgeting.
Often what is quoted in the media is BS if you know how the real systemnworks.
Like the cost of USCG rescues that cost hundreds of thousands...according to the media...but in reality it was money budgeted for just that in the fiscal year...no additional cost to the taxpayer
Benthic2
Guru
I don't want to derail the thread here.....but its STILL a cost to the taxpayer!!
I don't think the investigation would have been complete without the black box. That gave them insight into details like the water might have been entering from the fire fighting equipment, that it was too dangerous to go into Hold 3 because cars were floating around....that they shifted ballast from one side to the other, and so on. Without it, all we would have had would be the information from the sat call to headquarters.
I was totally stunned to hear that there was no high water alarm panel on the bridge. If there was, they would have been able to respond to the incoming water earlier, and the outcome might have been very different.
I was also surprised that the guys supervising the loading had no official training in cargo loading and were unfamiliar with the software that was used.
If there's a question as to what happened and why, of course you go after the box. That was decidedly not the case in this tragedy. Once they lost the power plant, they were doomed. The audio of the crew will simply be used by Mark Walburg in his next tasteless disaster movie. The engineer's father said as much. Again, the initial decision by the board was to let it be. They knew there would be nothing of consequence on it...just desperate men fighting a hopeless battle. Y'all enjoy the movie.
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psneeld
Guru
Sure it costs taxpayer money to run the USCG and everything else.
But because taxpayers wont pay as you go and its impossible to fund that way anyhow, a budget is set and hopefully professionals get all the jobs done needed to be done within that budget.
So a particular SAR case doesnt cost "extra", and as far as I know, the Navy's mission to grab the box may not have either, it might have, I just cant say.
If the Navy's case is similar to a USCG SAR mission, then if they didnt grab the box, the money might have gone to training, maintenance, another ship....but it probably would not have gone back into a general fund outside the Navy.
Benthic2
Guru
I think the media overstates the costs....since the Ship is paid for and I assume the crew's salaries are being paid whether they stay in port or go on a mission. They certainly burn more fuel in the ships/planes when they are searcing rather than sitting still...so that cost is real. An accountant can use lots of different methods to assign costs, and they aren't all necessarily realistic. I'm sure you've seen it from a different angle than the average Joe.
SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
Well you've yet to answer my question and you keep repeating what 1 person said. You don't like it, so sorry.
Benthic2
Guru
Rufus, you and SaltyDawg had a difference of opinion so he asked what you did for work. My guess is he was trying to understand where you were coming from. You knew what he was doing and dodged the question by providing an answer that revealed nothing about your background. He made the assumption, as I think most people would in this case, that you are not in the shipping industry......again....you took to your keyboard to give an answer that revealed absolutely nothing by simply stating "flawed premise"
In your little pissing contest, you seem to be going out of your way to prevent any common ground from being reached and are simply trying to sow discord, while he sought to better understand someone with a difference of opinion. Our world would be a far better place if more people took his approach to things, and a far worse place if more took yours.
In your little pissing contest, you seem to be going out of your way to prevent any common ground from being reached and are simply trying to sow discord, while he sought to better understand someone with a difference of opinion. Our world would be a far better place if more people took his approach to things, and a far worse place if more took yours.
SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
^^^ I'm glad someone else sees that. I thought that was getting lost in translation.
psneeld
Guru
the fuel budget is up front and paid for too....thats what I am saying, it ALL could have been money aready allocated...but unless you were in those little circles of Navy finance, its hard to know for certain.
Yet I would bet its probable, yet if there was enough pressure from the outside, the Navy ciuld have requested special funding.
That was rarely the case in my USCG experience. Usually only huge operations like Katrina and now Houston where hundereds of missions were flown would there be separate funding,.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
I have no problem with the navy go getting the black box. There was good info gained. And it does the navy good to take on a serious technical challenge, and succeed at it. Most of the hardware and personnel are being paid for whether at the dock or at sea. Fuel and sea pay about the only difference. Kudos to them on their success retrieving it from such depth.
angus99
Guru
No, I just don't obsess over a meaningless financial impact to politicize a tragedy.
The funds spent on this recovery are funds that would have gone somewhere else. That's just a fact and is not meaningless in my estimation. I have no idea as to which political party the Florida Congressman belonged and don't care. As I said, I have an issue with politicians of any persuasion pressuring independent investigative organizations. I'd think everyone would.
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