Expectation vs Reality...

[Simi 60]

Our boat punched well above her weight - figured for the price asked she would be to far gone but reality is she only had some cosmetic issues.

The only thing we don't like is the leather lounge and dinette seating needing new foam.
Bum gets a bit sore after several hours of lounging.

Bed on board was a standard house sized Queen.
1st thing I did was modify the base to take our newly purchased pillow topped king sized bed which is two singles zipped down the middle.
Incredibly comfortable.
I can roll around and get up during the night without disturbing the wife.

 

[markpierce]

My 80-horsepower John Deere works for me... Noticed cracks in the mirror at the foot of the forward berth, adjacent to the anchor-chain locker. Probably due to hitting steep five-foot waves at the eastern end of Suisun Bay.

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks, Bruce... I just sent a queen size mattress inquiry to https://slumberease.com/

Art, I just noticed where you are located.
I suggested that Dave look at Slumber Ease because they are not too far from him and we had a great experience there.
Like BandB suggested, you would likely find a more local company that worked well for you.
The magic for us was in actually spending time at their showroom and selecting the correct mattress! Take your time and get it right...
It is so worth the effort!
Bruce

 

[Bruce B]

...

Bruce,
Manufacturers almost always do what's expected and that's not far from what is considered standard. So I'm sure you could easily spend a lot of time and money on sound insulation. That will probably make a world of difference.

Something else to consider is that noise is closly related to work being done. The pressure in the combustion chamber produces a torque pulse that accellerates the flywheel causing the most (generally) engine shaking. Sure there is the # of cylinders, weight of flywheel & crank ect ect. But the torsional vibration is usually the greasest source of vibration and noise. Valves, chains and gears add to it (usually at different frequencies) .. much higher frequencies. The number of cylinders and torsional vibration probably creates the most noise on the boat. But not directly engine noise.

So enter the power pluses and torsional vibration in fairly low frequencies and many hull components can be set in resonance as to to sizes (dimensions) of hull components like a bottom pannel or a bulkhead. Hull components very often act like a tuning fork and "hum" to the engines vibrations. A very simple form of this is engine running and dishes ratteling. The hull components can vibrate at the input frequencies or fractions there-of. Say if the engine puts out 500cps a bulkhead may predominately vibrate at 250cps. A bulkhead may vibrate at The highest vibration (or noise) will be from the input frequency as it's the highest. The noise of hull components can be far in excess of the noises of the engine itself.

If all things are equal and of course they never are w different things a more easily driven hull could reduce noise and vibration considerably. The American Tug is not an efficient hull. It's a big, wide, tall and stable boat and those wonderful things have a price. And of course I'm refering to the power required to drive the boat. Less weight, beam, draft and wetted surface reduces power required. Have you ever ridden in a NT? They appear to be lighter, narrower and smaller w/o being shorter. Thus w the same hull resonance, torsional vibration # of cylinders ect the NT requiring much less power may be considerably quieter. There's so many variables the opposite may be true.

Just some things to think about re noise and vibration.

I am sure that the sound insulation on our boat is some of the best that I have ever seen. They put a lot of thought and effort into the subject.
That is not to say that improvements could not be made but...I don't believe it would be simple.

As to the Nordic Tug being more quiet, I am not too sure. I have seen sea trial numbers and sound measurements on both boats (AT and NT) and they are about the same at various speeds at least for like models of similar specifications.

Now, one thing we did when we ordered our boat was to banish all carpet from the build opting instead for hardwood floors. When you compare sound level measurements for the boats, the carpeted boats are quieter.

Our intent when we purchased the boat was to figure out an appropriate floor covering scheme after we had the boat.i will be interested in seeing if it makes any difference...

Bruce

 

[Nomad Willy]

Bruce,
We don't have carpeting either. That's for houses and perhaps yachts. But good point about carpeting.
At what speed do you cruise?
When I think of NT I think of the 32 that has rocker and is narrower. Perhaps the others have a lower aspect ratio as in wider.
I've been aboard boats w "scream'in Jimmies" that were working hard and the boats were relatively quiet. A tour boat out of Juneau comes to mind. Big twin DD's. The only real noise was over the stern railing where I heard one of the most beautiful exhaust noises ever. Wonder if they were twin V12's? A 15 knot boat. 58' I think and steel.

I think you need more and/or better sound insulation. I see you're of the opinion AT has done just about everything possible to control noise. I don't believe they have. If they spent a lot of "extra" on noise abatement they spend that same amount of extra on everything and you'd never be able to afford the boat. Riva comes to mind. I think Hamilton Marine in Seattle specializes in sound attenuation. Look them up. You may need a Riva in sound insulation.

 

[Art]

Art, I just noticed where you are located.
I suggested that Dave look at Slumber Ease because they are not too far from him and we had a great experience there.
Like BandB suggested, you would likely find a more local company that worked well for you.
The magic for us was in actually spending time at their showroom and selecting the correct mattress! Take your time and get it right...
It is so worth the effort!
Bruce

Thanks Bruce. I realize that.

Figured I'd get quote from mattress builder recommended as very good on TF. I requested shipping cost too. Felt maybe they could send small swatch of material offered after Linda and I looked over their selection and thicknesses. We already have a "fairly" comfortable mattress in master stateroom with good upholstery. It is a bit too hard for Linda... I admit it's not too soft! Believe we can get an upholstered foam overlay about 2 to 3 inches thick that makes nighttime rest a bit more comfortable. I'll try to remember to post here if something comes of this.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
We don't have carpeting either. That's for houses and perhaps yachts. But good point about carpeting.
At what speed do you cruise?
When I think of NT I think of the 32 that has rocker and is narrower. Perhaps the others have a lower aspect ratio as in wider.
I've been aboard boats w "scream'in Jimmies" that were working hard and the boats were relatively quiet. A tour boat out of Juneau comes to mind. Big twin DD's. The only real noise was over the stern railing where I heard one of the most beautiful exhaust noises ever. Wonder if they were twin V12's? A 15 knot boat. 58' I think and steel.

I think you need more and/or better sound insulation. I see you're of the opinion AT has done just about everything possible to control noise. I don't believe they have. If they spent a lot of "extra" on noise abatement they spend that same amount of extra on everything and you'd never be able to afford the boat. Riva comes to mind. I think Hamilton Marine in Seattle specializes in sound attenuation. Look them up. You may need a Riva in sound insulation.

OK,

For the mental exercise I will look at Hamilton as you suggest.
Our boat is quiet at 3 through about 8 or 9 knots. It is when you push it that it becomes loud. We can hit 19 plus knots and it is when pushed that it becomes loud. Even opening a window at speeds above about 8 knots adds a lot of noise!
Here are some engine room pictures.
Bruce

 

[Bruce B]

By the way, I can't find anything on Hamilton marine in Seattle...
Bruce

 

[Rossland]

No boat is perfect. Thus our boats name "Almost Perfect" is an accurate description, and the reason we decided to keep the name.

Yes, there are things that need to be changed/modified/fixed. Some are mistakes made by the builder, and some are errors made by boatyards after the boat was delivered. But because we have some experience with other Kadey-Krogens, we anticipated that there would be a few minor problems.

However the boat is very smooth, very quiet, and very comfortable for both the Captain and the Admiral. Regardless of price, I can't think of another boat I would rather have. It will probably be the last boat I will ever own.

 

[Art]

Bruce, Eric - Regarding boat operation noise


Throughout all of boat interior's sole We have resilient 5/8" thick under carpet sound deadener insulation material with thick, high grade Berber carpet atop. In areas such as salon center floor, entry door, galley at sink/stove and in master bed room we have nice throw rugs of different sizes/designs/colors Makes for good look, easy vacuuming, removal for cleaning and comfortable walking in bare feet... as well... this carpet arrangement makes fantastic noise modifier.

Double hatches are on salon floor that open up a non restricted 5'6" x 5'6" area with center walk step-down platform for easy access to engines, fuel tanks, house bank, gen set and trim tabs' hydraulic reservoir... as well as somewhat cramped access to transmissions, holding tank, batt charger, a Lectra San and a few incidentals. Both hatches have insulation underneath and are attached by piano hinges. Both are covered over their hinges with the under carpet sound deadener and Berber; the other three edges of each have metal trim. The hatches are so tightly fit together that to open or close they must both move in unison or else they will get bound up.

With hatches closed propulsion or gen set noise is considerably muffled. With hatches open the noise is pretty loud. I believe that operational noise reduction of engines and water rush on hull bottom has a lot to do with under sole and top of sole sound absorbing insulation.

 

[FOG]

I like listening to music while underway.

When we were on our sail boat, sailing, the music was off. We listened to the wind and water.

I also have a dune buggy and play in the Southern California sand dunes. Many people put very expensive music systems into their buggies. I don't and love hearing the roar of my V8 as I go through the sand dunes.

The difference between an ordeal and an adventure is your attitude.

 

[Codger2]

I'm always interested in threads that deal with levels of noise on a boat & the various efforts to reduce said noise.

Since all navigating on our boat is done from the fly bridge, I really have no gripe on salon noise. We recently changed out all carpeting in the boat & my wife tells me that Sandpiper is a little quieter. I ran the boat just after the old carpet was removed & before the installation of the new & even from the bridge the noise level increase was noticeable.

Carpeting has a greater impact than I previously thought.

The photos below are with the new carpeting in the salon, staterooms & area rugs in both heads. The flybridege was also carpeted.

 

[Mike.p]

The noise is engine noise but I am not entirely sure if it is direct or resonant.
Tomco does an awful lot to the boat to abate things from excellent Sounddown insulation everywhere in the engine room to snaps that hold hatches tight, to special mounts etc. All you have to do to verify that things are working is to open an engine hatch while underway...wow, what a difference!
I believe that much of the noise is simply a result of the fact that the engine is directly beneath your feet.

We recently took a fellow American Tug 34 owner for a ride and he felt pretty strongly that our boat was quieter than his at speed. I know that boats with hardwood floors like ours are noisier than carpeted boats and I suspect that this is an indicator of higher frequency, reflected sounds but I am not 100% sure. Open the windows or get to the flybridge and you get a lot of water noise at speed too.

Our boat is noticeably quieter than the same model we got to sea trial last year before we committed to ordering. Custom Isoflex motor mounts and the Veemstar 5 blade propeller have combined to eliminate harmonics and vibration I was aware of on the other boat. Still, for long periods of time, our boat is happiest at 1800 RPM's or less. That translates to just under 9 knots for us.

Even on the flybridge where you are isolated from engine noise, wind and water noise rise at speed. We have run at 16 knots fot an hour or so but it is not something you want to listen to for a long day...

Bruce

Try one of these then let us know your report to be compared.

The Best Phone Apps to Measure Noise Levels

 

[dhays]

Now, one thing we did when we ordered our boat was to banish all carpet from the build opting instead for hardwood floors. When you compare sound level measurements for the boats, the carpeted boats are quieter.

Our boat had carpet that was put down by the PO. They just selected a high quality home carpeting, and had pieces cut and edges bound to fit the boat. There are pros and cons to this.

Pros: The boat is really quiet. The carpeting adds a huge amount of sound insulation that I think we take for granted since we haven't known anything else. The carpet is very comfy under foot during the cool months (most of the year). Underneath the carpeting the PO placed that non-sliding rubber webbing stuff. The carpet doesn't slide around. This is also helped by having the carpet pieces cut edge to edge. Bare feet or socks won't slide in rough weather.

There is no carpeting up in the pilothouse nor under the saloon table. Both those floors are a lot slipperier.

Cons: Having carpet means to you have to have a vacuum. Not as convenient as a broom. The carpet has to be laid back to access the engine hatches. This is a pain because they cut one large piece in the saloon center which covered three of the hatches. If I was laying it out, I would have done it differently to make it easier to access.

Carpeting doesn't look as "yachty" as the teak and holly flooring that it covers. I'm not crazy about the carpet the PO selected however so maybe another color would make me feel better about it. I'm wondering about a deep red? ;-)

 

[Bruce B]

Try one of these then let us know your report to be compared.

The Best Phone Apps to Measure Noise Levels

I use SPLnFFT on my phone.
Just sitting in our pilothouse with nothing on we are showing something like 37 dB(A). Turning the pilothouse air conditioner on results in this about 56.7 dB(A), starting the engine it rises to about 63.2dB(A) at idle and if I open the engine room hatch I see a whopping 78.5 dB(A)!
Here you go...

 

[Group9]

I like listening to music while underway.

When we were on our sail boat, sailing, the music was off. We listened to the wind and water.

I also have a dune buggy and play in the Southern California sand dunes. Many people put very expensive music systems into their buggies. I don't and love hearing the roar of my V8 as I go through the sand dunes.

The difference between an ordeal and an adventure is your attitude.

Probably the biggest thing we miss about the sailboat. There is really no substitute for just hearing the sound of the hull gliding through the water and the waves lapping against it.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I'm returning to my "work being done" theory.

On our Willard w/o carpet and a 37/40hp engine run at 50% output noise only gets objectionable over time at 2500rpm or higher. Rated rpm is 3000 so we're down 500rpm from rated rpm and propped to rated rpm. Normal cruise is 2300 and I don't think anyone would complain about the noise there. The only sound control that I know of is foam/lead sheathing under the hatch covers.

The 30' Willard uses 18hp to push the boat at 6 knots. We're a bit (6.15 knots) over that. Call it 20hp. So w/o much sound insulation Willy is very comfortable sound wise. And there's very little work being done. One just can't make much noise w/o doing considerable work. And Bruce's testimony that noise is fine cruising fairly slow (doing little (relatively)) work supports my theory.

However a generator (small diesel engine) running at 1800rpm and little load (work being done) kinda ruins my theory. The generator's engine sits on soft rubber mounts and is otherwise mot physically connected to the boat. It only turns the generator itself and it is bolted directly to the engine. And weight bolted to the engine will reduce vibration. Many times I've heard people on TF complain about "genny" noise. Dosn't seem to add up. Not much actual engine vibration. Must be mostly mechanical noise like valve clatter or/and the sharp rap of diesel combustion seems to be the only obvious source of dominant noise. I'm sure a well muffled gasoline engine would be nice and quiet .. on a genny if well muffled exhaust wise.
So it appears to be the problematic devil in diesel engine noise. The combustion noise can be compared to (perhaps quite accurately) a hammer hitting something hard like a car frame. I wonder how much the diesel engine combustion noise varies under load. I had a Nissan Maxima (diesel (80's)) that had awful noise at idle and light load. The only zone that could be called relatively quiet was under heavy load. So going up hills was great. Many diesel PU trucks are very noisy .. even at idle at a traffic light where I frequently roll up my windows on the offending side. But some of the newer trucks are much quieter. Wonder how they did that? But the semi-truck I drove a lot in the 80's was noisiest when working hard. It was Cummins powered.

Lots of variables.

 

[twistedtree]

I'd say our boat is performing as expected. The trouble is that expectations evolve, and typically only go up.

Bruce mentioned sound levels. That has been a big factor is all our boat changes. Each "new" boat has had a clear objective of being quieter than the last one. And each was much quieter than the previous boat, but soon you acclimate and want to go quieter again. To me, machinery can never be too quiet.

The same is true with space and other amenities. What seems luxurious on a new boat becomes the norm over time, and you start wanting more. A dishwasher was a huge luxury for us on our current boat. But after getting used to having it, we noted how loud it was (there is noise level again), so replaced it with a much quieter Bosch. Now after running it for a second or third time in a day when we have guests, a full size 24" dishwasher starts sounding pretty good.

Washer and dryers are similar. The idea of having one at all on our Grand Banks was amazing, and we tolerated the Splendide capacity limit of one sock at a time, and drying capacity that left all clothes a bit damp. Now I wouldn't consider anything other than separate washer and dryer, and only a vented dryer.

Another factor that pushes one down this path is how long you spend on the boat. If you are on for a weekend, it's one thing. On for a week or two, something else. On for a month or two, something else yet again. And on for multiple months straight, another thing again. Our expectations have evolved in lock step with the amount of time we spend on the boat.

 

[twistedtree]

Re engine noise, be careful assuming all the noise is radiated from the engine room. The exhaust note can be quite significant in many boats, and is harder to deal with as boats get smaller because there just isn't room for as big a muffler as you might want. Our Back Cove 29 was deafening and we both wore ear plugs when underway. It was all in the exhaust note, and due to a muffler that was as big as it could be, but not as big as it should have been.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Tree,
Don't think much about exhaust noise personally as we have a lift muffler. I don't see why all boats don't have them. The only exhaust noise is the occasional splashing of water. What exhaust noise?

 

[twistedtree]

Tree,
Don't think much about exhaust noise personally as we have a lift muffler. I don't see why all boats don't have them. The only exhaust noise is the occasional splashing of water. What exhaust noise?

Only if it's the appropriate size.....

 

[twistedtree]

Speaking of escalating expectations, before my eyes I see the future.

A 160 foot Westport, Gigi, just came zooming into Gloucester Harbor, accompanied by a pilot boat. I don't think I've ever in my 57 years seen a pilot boat escort a vessel into Gloucester except for the occasional cruise ship.

But wait, there's more.

Coming in behind it is the yacht escort vessel, Axis. It's 180 feet long, and carries the boat toys, including tenders that are the size of most of our primary boats, helicopter, and submarine.

As Mel Brooks said in the History of the World, "It's good to be the King".

 

[BandB]

A 160 foot Westport, Gigi, just came zooming into Gloucester Harbor, accompanied by a pilot boat. I don't think I've ever in my 57 years seen a pilot boat escort a vessel into Gloucester except for the occasional cruise ship.

164'. One of it's big advantages is that even at that size, it's draft is only 7'6". Slightly older model for charter for $240,000 per week, although that's probably negotiable. Just a shortage of 164's for charter right now. Thirteen 130's available (or more) and fifteen 112's. The 164' wot is around 24 and cruises up to 20 knot.Fiberglass built in US. Twin 3860 hp MTU's.

Now Axis is very interesting and unique. 181' built in the Netherlands and just delivered to the current owner last year. Four CAT 1118 hp, WOT 22 knots, cruise 16 knots. Not bad for a steel hull that claims to displacement. lol. Axis draft is 12.8'.

The Westport holds 20,000 gallons and range of 5000 nm at 10 knots. Axis range is 5000 nm at 16 knots.

 

[BandB]

Reminded today of something else that I really didn't know much about and that's diesel engines. I'd only been in an uncle's diesel car once and that was long ago and it really stunk. That worried me. The reality of diesel boats might be bad to some but with my low expectations, I was pleasantly surprised.

I was just reminded as we bought a diesel vehicle, a Mercedes Sprinter. Needed something to haul large numbers of people back and forth and drove it on Saturday from Fort Lauderdale to Northern MS, almost TN. Not one time did I think of it as "diesel". It was just a van. Come a long way from what I remembered.

Shows how much of accepting reality is expectation.

Long ago I said I'd never own a diesel vehicle. Guess boats changed me on that although I was still a bit hesitant.

 

[O C Diver]

H

Reminded today of something else that I really didn't know much about and that's diesel engines. I'd only been in an uncle's diesel car once and that was long ago and it really stunk. That worried me. The reality of diesel boats might be bad to some but with my low expectations, I was pleasantly surprised.

I was just reminded as we bought a diesel vehicle, a Mercedes Sprinter. Needed something to haul large numbers of people back and forth and drove it on Saturday from Fort Lauderdale to Northern MS, almost TN. Not one time did I think of it as "diesel". It was just a van. Come a long way from what I remembered..

Did you remember when you went to fuel it up?

Ted

 

[BandB]

H

Did you remember when you went to fuel it up?

Ted

Oh yes, and it does have very clear warnings. I have to laugh about the first time we filled on the way. We're all the group headed to the boat, regular boat mentality. It was out loud looking at the fill and saying diesel and looking at the pump and saying diesel. We laughed and I'm sure anyone around thought we were crazy. But we kept that approach. Also, had to adjust to going to truck stops to fuel. I've done it occasionally in the past, but not focused on it before.

I thought we were crazy buying this van, but very much in love with it now.

That brings up a question of whether we sometimes let one person drive the van between each of our coastal stops (different person each time perhaps) so everywhere we go we have it to use. Local transportation is hard in some small towns when you have anywhere from 6 to 12 people. Even four can be.

 

[Fletcher500]

Try one of these then let us know your report to be compared.

The Best Phone Apps to Measure Noise Levels

I was going on line today to buy a DB meter, and found out on this web forum there is an App for that. Amazing. How did we exist without all of these fancy electronic gadgets when we were young? Actually, I am glad they weren't around. But happy for the App...I think.

 

[Art]

I was going on line today to buy a DB meter, and found out on this web forum there is an App for that. Amazing. How did we exist without all of these fancy electronic gadgets when we were young? Actually, I am glad they weren't around. But happy for the App...I think.

EZ Peezie! Wife and I let our ears work as our DB meter... after we've done nearly all that can [realistically] be accomplished to make items quite. If the noise level is not bothersome we're happy. If it is... we search for more [realistic] sound deadening approaches.

 

[cappy208]

Reading these posts brings back many memories of sound chasing. To recount several instances which took weeks/ months to find. Hours of labor to remedy and trial and error:

Thousands of dollars of sounddown installed (after several other types were installed and then thrown out) only to find that the muffler was hard mounted to an aluminum house frame which caused most of the echoing. And the rest was the engine beds acting like speakers echoing forward into the cabin. In the end the only livable solution was to run the engine at 1600 rpm for normal top end, And only go to 1800/1900 when absolutely needed in a pinch.

Another particularly vexing issue was one (out of 9) exhaust mounts being improperly installed in a generator installation. This sound only occurred in the winter time when the heat was on (loading the generator up fully). Once the lagging was installed you couldn't find the culprit. Only after uninstalling about 30' of professionally installed lagging did we stumble across the offending pipe hanger. At normal loads the generator load wouldn't cause a vibration.
Some engines have a 'critical' speed that they don't 'like' to operate at. Above and below the critical speed is fine. Just not certain speeds.
Trying to find if your engines have a critical rpm they don't like operating at (and avoiding that rpm).
You mention opening the window and hearing noise. New noises take time to acclimatize to. Patience.

 

[rwidman]

I would say we achieved our goal when we bought our boat. Being our first trawler and our first "cruising capable" boat, we didn't have specifics in mind, just a boat that we could cruise comfortably on and one that fit our means.

This has happened and we happily cruise two or three months per year plus shorter trips.