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Old 06-28-2016, 04:47 PM   #1
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Ethanol

Just got this email from BoatUS. I sent in my complaint/comment. I hate the ethanol mandate. Ethanol is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever invented by rational people. It raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).

Plus it screws up my carburetors !!!


BoatU.S. Government Affairs Logo

June 28th, 2016

Dear BoatU.S. Member:

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is asking for comments on a proposal to increase the amount of ethanol that must be blended into the nation's gasoline supply for 2017. If adopted, these proposed levels will require the use of a record amount of ethanol, forcing higher-level fuel blends (including E15 or 15% ethanol) into gas pumps and at more gas stations. It's important to know that most marine engines are built to only work with up to 10% ethanol, and it is illegal to use gas containing more than 10% ethanol in any marine engine.

Please take a few moments to send a message NOW urging the EPA to lower the ethanol mandates to ensure an adequate supply of fuel that will work in your boat.

Click here to take action.

Background:

The Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) is the 2005 law that requires the blending of biofuels such as corn-ethanol into our gasoline. When written, it was assumed that America's use of gasoline would continue to rise. However, U.S. gasoline usage has actually dropped steadily since 2005 and now the law forces more ethanol into fewer gallons of gasoline.

To keep up with this mandate, in 2010 the EPA permitted E15 (fuel containing up to 15% ethanol) into the marketplace, for some engines. E15 has been proven to damage boat engines and so it is prohibited in marine engines. It is also illegal to use E15 in snowmobiles, motorcycles, small engines like lawnmowers and leaf blowers, as well as any car or light-truck made before 2001.

E15 and higher ethanol blends fuel can now be found in 23 states, often at the very same pumps as E10 gasoline. A sticker on the pump mixed in with all the other labels may be the only warning for E15 gasoline. This creates a huge potential for mis-fueling and puts boaters at risk of using fuel that will damage their engines. CLICK HERE for more information on E15 and the Renewable Fuel Standard.

Thanks for being a BoatU.S. member and for taking action to let EPA hear how more ethanol will affect your boat engine. The deadline for your comment is July 11th, 2016. Help spread the word and please FORWARD TO A FRIEND.

Sincerely,

Margaret B. Podlich
President, BoatU.S.
(703) 461-2878 x8363
BoatUS - Government Affairs - Home

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL. If you prefer not to receive Boat Owners Association of The United States Government Affairs Alert emails go to BoatUS - Government Affairs - Unsubscribe or use the link at the bottom of this message.

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Old 06-29-2016, 09:05 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by cardude01 View Post
Ethanol is quite possibly the stupidest thing ever invented by rational people. It raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).
I don't know how to respond without this thread becoming political. The best I can do is non-partisan.

If you actually believe the elected officials in EITHER party are looking out for your best interests, please re-read the above quote until you understand.
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:05 AM   #3
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Yeah I agree my post was probably possibly too political.

But what do y'all think about E15? Won't that be even worse for outboards?
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Old 06-29-2016, 03:07 PM   #4
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It [mandated ethanol use] raises the price of corn which raises the prices of other foods. It's not a good conversion of energy-- it actually eats up more energy than it makes. All the extra corn farming and fertilizing and watering is terrible for the environment. It only makes sense for the farmers (and their lobbyists).
That summation is not political at all. It is simply a rational statement on the current situation. The use of ethanol could make some sense, both environmentally and economically. Unfortunately, it does neither the way it is being done. It currently serves more as a farm subsidy than any type of environmental strategy.

Probably won't get much argument to your statements in this crown as generally we represent both coasts and not the large corn producing sections in the middle.
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Old 06-29-2016, 03:15 PM   #5
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E 15 WILL KILL your outboard!

DO NOT USE E 15 in any marine engine.

(Unless you hate your boat motor)
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Old 06-29-2016, 03:53 PM   #6
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E15 will also cause major problems with aluminum fuel tanks.
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Old 06-29-2016, 07:23 PM   #7
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If 15% ethanol is so great that it has to be mandated why not 85% or 100%?
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Old 06-29-2016, 09:15 PM   #8
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cardude or others,

Can you find/post up here the hot linky for comments to this issue please?
I dug around in EPA site and struck out.
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Old 06-29-2016, 10:34 PM   #9
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In one of my adventures away from the ocean, I had a dairy in Tillamook, OR. I still have friends and family farming, but none growing ethanol corn. My parents came from farm families. Born in 1901 and 1908 when Teddy was president. Wish he still was now.
I don't care for ethanol in fuel, but then I don't like low sulfur diesel. But it does make the air cleaner. In addition to gasoline, ethanol is used to bring biodiesel up to standard diesel power. That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper. If you don't eat meat or ice cream then I suppose it's a bad thing.
Also, most farmers live on the land they farm. They don't get city water, but well water and they don't want their families to get cancer anymore than you do. Farmers wouldn't use products that kill them. The take multiple soil samples every year so they don't put down more fertilizer than the next crop will use. Extra fertilizer or trips across the fields don't help profits if there are any. If all the farmers went organic, much of the world's population would have to go away.
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Old 06-29-2016, 10:59 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
In one of my adventures away from the ocean, I had a dairy in Tillamook, OR. I still have friends and family farming, but none growing ethanol corn. My parents came from farm families. Born in 1901 and 1908 when Teddy was president. Wish he still was now.
I don't care for ethanol in fuel, but then I don't like low sulfur diesel. But it does make the air cleaner. In addition to gasoline, ethanol is used to bring biodiesel up to standard diesel power. That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper. If you don't eat meat or ice cream then I suppose it's a bad thing.
Also, most farmers live on the land they farm. They don't get city water, but well water and they don't want their families to get cancer anymore than you do. Farmers wouldn't use products that kill them. The take multiple soil samples every year so they don't put down more fertilizer than the next crop will use. Extra fertilizer or trips across the fields don't help profits if there are any. If all the farmers went organic, much of the world's population would have to go away.
Ethanol fuel produces less CO than regular gasoline. However it produces more
Ozone producing gasses. Ethanol can't use current pipelines because of the water that comes with it. E85 also has much poorer fuel economy than regular gasoline, meaning that more fuel has to be burned (and transported) to do the same amount of work. This also increases consumer costs. Since the mandated ethanol standards the cost of food and feed corn has risen dramatically, and therefore the cost of corn fed meat and poultry.

I like the idea of reduce CO emissions, but I am not convinced that when you look at the total effect it has it will be a net environmental gain. Not to mention the cost of replacing and disposing of marine gas engines engines earlier than they would otherwise.

We will be much better off when switchgrass can be used economically to produce ethanol or any of the other currently wasted biomass.

While tempting, ideas such as ethanol fuel additives or electric cars don't always provide the overall environmental "win" that we might like. However in the case of ethanol, the farm lobby will ensure that lawmakers will continue to simply look at the large drop in CO from E85 use.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:08 AM   #11
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This is from the Boat US website. Try this link: http://www.capwiz.com/boatus/issues/...ertid=72776626
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:16 AM   #12
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Ladies, Gentlemen, Children and All Boaters

Atmospherically separated CO2 turned into syn-gas and then transformed into fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel, and jet fuels. All production portions can be solar powered for new source availability to a "full cycle" global scale hydrocarbon fuel source. Worldwide the atmosphere currently holds over 100 year supply of overburdened CO2 PPM.

Others and I have been proceeding forward for 12 years toward attaining this capability.

Happy New-Fuel-Source Daze! - Art
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Old 06-30-2016, 03:43 AM   #13
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Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.
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Old 06-30-2016, 06:38 AM   #14
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Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.
Maybe a side effect of these new fuels?
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:09 AM   #15
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Ethanol eating bacteria, acetobacters, create acids. Acids create galvanic corrosion currents in gasoline, which is why you wont find much metal in a car's fuel system.

I agree it is a dumb idea. People do dumb things and you have to live with their dumb ideas or change the rules. They dont care the people who support ethanol about your old carbs. They want them to disappear, that old tech they consider to be polluting tech.

I now after having to constantly fix lawnmower, small motor carbs, simply buy 5 gallons of craptastic E10 and dump in water, shake it. Let it sit for 15 minutes. Then pour off pure gas on top. It improved the power of my weak 6 HP lawnmower so that it no longer bogs down. And so far, the carb is lasting without clogging up with white corrosion.

Probably a good idea to mix ATF into E10 on boat engines..
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:40 AM   #16
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Art, I think you need to translate that into a clearer explanation, or some typos slipped thru there, because even I am unsure what you mean, and I'm fairly up on this sort of subject.

Peter

No typos. Translation to complete clarity is thwarted by trade secret abeyance - on many levels. I best as allowed explained this method of utilizing atmospheric CO2 as a base product for a global scope new fuel source till my finger tips ached in 2011 through 2012, to numerous TF members. I've not time nor energy to do that again. Vast majority of TF persons who read what I described were too often rudely condescending toward this method and its need for development to assist stopping the ever increasing speed of marching toward climate catastrophe. Much is confidential/proprietary regarding my devices as well as many of the other devices from persons and companies. We've a sizable conglomerate is working feverously on this endeavor. What and how is said about this program in my post #12 is exactly what we are proceeding with and toward.

If you'd like to personally learn a bit more regarding allowably released specifics... that can be accomplished via email. Let me know.

Art


PS: For natural reasons - Atmosphere CO2 content to keep climate regulated into reasonable living conditions (as it has been for over 12 thousand years) needs to stay at between 225 to 280 CO2 PPM (parts per million). Currently it is breaking 400 PPM and currently gaining approx. 3 PPM per year http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/weekly.html Atmospheric CO2 is the instigator for global warming. From its warmth producing solar absorption rates there are many added "feed-ons" that occur to increase this solar absorption warming cycle (such as increased humidity, dark open land masses from glacial retreats, open waters from reduced ice formations... etc.). Suffice it to say the following: Scientific predictions show that within this century, maybe as soon as in the next couple to few decades, this warming trend will interrupt the thousands of years naturally regulated flows of trade winds and oceanic currents. When these cataclysmic events take place there will be an unprecedented upheaval of environmentally altered conditions that effect all living properties on Earth - Very much humans included.


Luckily I can still edit here - See FF's post just below this. It is the reason I mention "Vast majority of TF persons who read what I described were too often rudely condescending..." in my first paragraph above. And, yes FF was and still is one of them. LOL
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:59 AM   #17
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"marching toward climate catastrophe."

AHH the old "proven science" that may never ever be questioned.

Back in the early computer days "GIGO" was better understood.

Attempting to deconstruct a society for unproven and failed computer models is risky.

We have proof of 4.3 billion years of "climate change" waiting another thousand won't matter.
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Old 06-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #18
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That said, the corn used to make ethanol isn't lost. It is a prime cattle feed and replaces other grains the cattle would eat. In fact the ethanol corn is in demand by cattlemen. It makes meat and dairy products cheaper.

Can you 'splain a bit more about how that can be?

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Old 06-30-2016, 09:23 AM   #19
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The ethanol makers sell the leftovers to cattlemen who feed it to the cattle.
Cattlemen also have been known to feed dead sick anilmals to cattle. That is how the brain disease spongiform_encephalopathy, mad cow disease started. If the cows could grow on sludge, the farmers would feed that to the cattle.
Whatever is cheapest to get the best price at the markets for whatever you produce is how it is. If you dont like it, then buy organic foods.?
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Old 06-30-2016, 10:30 AM   #20
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If 15% ethanol is so great that it has to be mandated why not 85% or 100%?
They were doing that in Brazil years ago
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