Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-28-2015, 09:11 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 420
Engines

1: I am slowly starting to get my head around the variety of diesels offered on boats (trawlers) manufactured in the last 40-50 years: manufacturers, models, power, aspiration, electronic control or not, fuel consumption rates, transmission options etc. etc..... Emphasis on slowly. Is there a comprehensive comparison/primer out there that anyone knows of?

2: During my "journey" I am becoming aware of matching an engine to a prop. Size, pitch and all that, in relation to a specific boat. Is there a primer out there that puts a lot of the information in one place regarding this subject?

Web, books any help would be appreciated.

Meanwhile I keep reading this forum
__________________
Advertisement

oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 10:58 AM   #2
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,801
Boatdiesel.com is a great trove of info. Cheap at 25 bucks a year.

http://boatdiesel.com/
__________________

__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 11:11 AM   #3
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
The Propeller Handbook by Dave Gerr
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 11:39 AM   #4
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
Oscar:

A couple of books could help with your second question, both by David Gerr: The Nature of Boats and the Propeller Handbook. Neither talk much about engines but do talk about hull design and propeller matching.

Since I can't think of a single book that relates to your first question, let me offer a summary of the evolution of trawler engines:

1. Since you said a 40-50 year time frame lets start with the big iron, slow reving diesel, like maybe the Gardner. Heavy, reasonably fuel efficient, and lasts forever. Makes about 15 hp per liter at less than 2,000 rpm. Unless you are an old time purist a Gardner is probably not for you.

2, Moving up the scale is the normally aspirated, mechanically injected engines of the 70s and 80s like the venerable Perkins 6.354, the Ford Lehman 135 and the Caterpillar 3208. These make their maximum hp at about 2,400 rpm and like to run well below 2,000. Fuel consumption is 16-17 hp per gph. The core engine of this type will last forever but the marine add ons will need servicing and probably replacement to go 10,000 hours. Both were also turbocharged but not high output like #4 below.

A modern variation on this category is the Kubota, Mitsubishi, Izuzu and Yanmar NA engines. They usually are less than 100 hp and are suitable for smaller trawlers. Most do not meet todays emissions regs.

3. A somewhat unique category is the Detroit Diesel because it is two cycle. The 4-53 (no of cylinders and cubic inch displacement per cylinder) was used in the respected Hatteras LRC trawler. These are relatively heavy and make about 16 hp per gph and will also last forever if run at moderate loads. DD also made x-71 and x-92 engines and some trawlers will have the NA 6-71, one of the most popular diesels ever made. Some think that DDs are noisy and often leak oil, but Hatteras owners seem to love them.

4. The all mechanical engines peaked with the Cummins 6BTA, the Yanmar 4LH, 6LP, 6LY among others. These are sophisticated, turbocharged, high output diesels that make 60+ hp per liter and have fuel efficiency in the 18-20 hp per gph range. These will almost always be mated to a semi displacement hull that can use the increased hp. Like the prior category these too can go 10,000 hours if loaded moderately and the marine add ons maintained properly. But alas most do not so they die prematurely either to overloading or a marine add on failure.

Contrary to the old wives tales, these engines can be run slow, down to about 10 hp per liter which will get them up to operating temps. Run at higher rpms every once in a while for ten minutes to blow accumulated soot out.

5. Today's engines are almost all electronic, common rail, turbo charged engines. They produce the same hp as #4 with about the same fuel economy but meet today's emissions regs. For a long range cruiser the vulnerability of the electronics is a concern.

6. The one manufacturer who makes engines today that might satisfy the purist is John Deere. Their engines while mostly turbocharged, common rail are usually slower turning and make less than 40 hp per liter so they are suitable for a displacement hull trawler. Not surprisingly Nordhavn uses JDs.

David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 01:05 PM   #5
Guru
 
Hawgwash's Avatar
 
City: Sidney
Country: Canada
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Oscar:
Since I can't think of a single book that relates to your first question, let me offer a summary of the evolution of trawler engines:
David:
I always enjoy what you post, even when you are challenged.
It gives me something to think about, dig into and learn.
Thanks for the time you take.

So, do CAT numbers 31..32..34..etc. follow a chronological progression?
Also I have seen a series of boats with CAT 3116, which I don't see that often. Know anything about them?
Hawgwash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #6
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
IMO unless your building a boat the engines are what they are. Also IMO modern non electronic control 4 strokes from a major maker are preferred.
That gives lots of choices. Further IMO you buy a boat based on the boat and maybe rule out some based on engines.
Most engines will give similar power per fuel used and unless they were always run hard and not cared for will outlast several owners.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 03:22 PM   #7
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Vancouver Shipyards Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,447
A Gardiner will possibly last forever, most failures on them occur because of owners polishing excessively! Idle at 350-400 rpm? Lovely!

I have a 6CTA 8.3 M1 which seems to be a good engine so far...

In my very humble opinion, any engine that has electronic anything on it should not be in a boat. I watched a service tech working on a Yamaha 250 outboard, all he had in his toolbox was a laptop.

I have a friend who towed a 65 foot boat from Port McNeill to Seattle because one engine threw a rod and damaged the electronic box on the other engine so the boat was totally disabled. Twins for maneuvering only?

Give me the mechanical, crude, simple clam-crushers for a boat motor every day.

Its also true about Detroits, they are the noisiest boat engines on the planet; my friend's Tolly with two water lift mufflers is noisier than my Cummins, before I put in a muffler!
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 04:17 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 420
Thank you all for taking the time, especially David, that was very helpful. I think I should have made my question a little bit more specific, lol. What I seem to be gravitating towards (as is the Admiral) is mid 80's to early nineties semi displacement boats in the 42-55 foot range. MT, GB and the like. Cats, DD, Deeres, Fords. A variety of horse powers. Some blown, some naturally aspirated. No, I'm not building a boat, but I won't buy a boat that doesn't have engines that give me the warm and fuzzies. Hence all this research.
__________________
Currently boatless but looking. Avatar is my first boat....Holland, 1965 ish.....
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 05:06 PM   #9
Guru
 
City: Northport
Country: USA
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 814
Hello Oscar,


based upon your inputs a good book to get you started that will cover all the bases reasonably well is by Nigel Calder.
"Marine diesel engines, maintenance, troubleshooting and repair"
2nd ed ISBN # 0-87742-313-X
200 pages - many good descriptions - pictures and some charts that you can really understand.
Hope this helps
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2015, 06:40 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
oscar's Avatar
 
City: Bethlehem, PA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: Don't know yet.....
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 420
Thanks, yes I've "known" Nigel for years in the sailboat end. Mostly his electrical musings. Thanks.
__________________
Currently boatless but looking. Avatar is my first boat....Holland, 1965 ish.....
oscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 06:42 PM   #11
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
Nothing wrong with the list you provided, I would add Cummins.


Since I do most of my own work I prefer inline 6s ove V8s. simple and fewer parts and easier to get to the outside of the engine.
Right sizing the engine displacement is important. If you plan to need 50HP per liter from your engine they wont last as long as 30 HP per liter sized engines.
N.B. It is not the size of the engines that determines fuel use and life it is how hard you use them.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 07:36 PM   #12
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
[QUOTE=caltexflanc;383258]Boatdiesel.com is a great trove of info. Cheap at 25 bucks a year.

http://boatdiesel.com/[Couldn't agree more! Since you have eluded to several engine manufacturers, why not see what the experts have to say about any of said engines? Tony Athens, David Marchand & others contribute frequently to Boat Diesel and as quoted above, $25/year delivers payback in spades.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 07:57 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
djones44's Avatar
 
City: Salt Spring Island
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Twilight
Vessel Model: Permaglass Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 168
I do agree, the boatdiesel resource is essential or you're doing it wrong. Think of them as an educational oil change and think tank about piss tanks - I mean day tanks.
djones44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 08:07 PM   #14
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawgwash View Post
So, do CAT numbers 31..32..34..etc. follow a chronological progression?
Also I have seen a series of boats with CAT 3116, which I don't see that often. Know anything about them?
Boatdiesel had an explanation of Cat's numbering system a few months ago, but I don't remember what it said. 3116 is an inline 6 and a 3208 is a V8.

All I know about Cats is what I have read on boatdiesel, mostly good, no obvious vices.

David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 08:26 PM   #15
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,882
[QUOTE=Codger2;383762]
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Boatdiesel.com is a great trove of info. Cheap at 25 bucks a year.

http://boatdiesel.com/[Couldn't agree more! Since you have eluded to several engine manufacturers, why not see what the experts have to say about any of said engines? Tony Athens, David Marchand & others contribute frequently to Boat Diesel and as quoted above, $25/year delivers payback in spades.
Don't forget TF member Ski- Eric Rydzewski (I hope I spelled that right) who is a mechanical engineer who decided he could make a decent living repairing diesels doing what he obviously loves. Eric has a nice combination of theoretical engineering knowledge and real experience as a practicing boat mechanic.

But even though Ski (and I) hang out here because we own trawlers, if you do have a serious engine problem, post it on boatdiesel. There are pros with extensive (to the point of doing development work on some brands) experience. Cummins has Tony and Paul, Cat has dave, Volvo has Dick, DDs have Ron, Yanmar has Tony, Ski and clark. Tony, Ski, clark and a new guy Mike cover others. You can't find that wealth of experience anywhere else.

But you have to be specific and give lots of information about the engine's history, how it is used, what the symptoms are, what you have done so far. And always, always include pictures of your engine. I am amazed at how often one of these guys can tell what is wrong (usually installation related) from looking at good pictures of the engine.

David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 08:40 PM   #16
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Vancouver Shipyards Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,447
Gardner...Gardner...too bad you can't edit after an hour...
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 09:01 PM   #17
Guru
 
Hawgwash's Avatar
 
City: Sidney
Country: Canada
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,265
I always get Gardner and Garden (William) mixed up, as I do Owens and Ohman.
Hawgwash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 09:39 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
BryanF's Avatar


 
City: Astoria
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Florence A
Vessel Model: 47' Sutton
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 173
Gardner- lovely piece of iron. I have a 6lw I am going to rebuild and am still looking for a 6L3B to put in Florence instead of the 671. One day maybe.
BryanF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 09:45 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
tallswede's Avatar
 
City: Baytown, Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Islander
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 245
Don't forget about the Perkins engines '60s - 80's in 4-108 & 4-236 versions. Pretty bullet proof engines (knock on wood).

Kevin
tallswede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2015, 10:00 PM   #20
Guru
 
ancora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,490
No mention of VOLVO and I concur with that decision. They offer the worst customer service in the industry and do not support older engines. I just priced a valve cover gasket, and they want $80..00 for it, if available. Cat or Cummins beats VOLVO every time when it comes to availability and cost of repair parts.
__________________

ancora is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012