Engine surveyor for Cummins VT555-M's in SF Bay Area?

[CraigC]

Tom and sunchaser - thanks for the gentle reminder to keep my head screwed on and my feet on the ground! How many first time boat buyers get swept up in emotions and excitement and neglect to consider many of the realities that will be faced on the day after the best ever day of boat ownership? I have heard it is more than a few. I appreciate the reminder. I love the boat, you're very right, but also, the fact that it has an open galley-up, a distinct dining area (salon aft), and living area (pilothouse), is something I think is pretty uncommon and it works very well for living aboard. Plus, I like that the living room is the pilothouse - lots of light, the helm is right there, and in winters it will (or wants to) be the warmest part of the boat naturally. Two guest staterooms (both over-under bunks) are down spiral stairs fore of the PH, and the master stateroom is amidship a few stairs down from the galley. (Guest rooms are also accessible from the midship stairs - it's like a circle which can be closed off by a locking door in the master.) There is a utility room between those stairs and the engine room.

But yes - if the seller is not reasonable should the need for a repair allowance arise, or if it's just too risky based on the current state of the vessel and powerplants, I can walk and still feel good that I tried.

Bryan - it would not surprise me if it were easier to find a great mechanic for the 555's (and 903's) in some areas of the country, moreso than in others. To your first point, my local Cummins field service manager told me to start prepping for a repower and helped determine that the 6BT 330's would be a good choice. Obviously, I would like to avoid that for as long as possible. He didn't go much beyond that. He was very nice and seems quite smart, too.

Brian - I am hoping you are right, and many of you have given lots of helpful tips that I have been unable to find anywhere else in the forum. My engine surveyor is said to know triple nickels well, and as an engineer, he also makes "house calls" for repairs, so that haulout and yard is only needed for the things he can't fix himself in my own slip.

My engine survey will be towards the end of next week - 1) cold start, poking around pre-trial, 2) warm up/sea trial, blowby, and monitoring performance, and 3) tie back up and a deep dive into the engines and gensets, and 4) oil samples sent out. Then on the 14th (that was the soonest we could get Kent), the haulout at KKMI and hull survey. We have til the 18th (21 days contingency period).

Meanwhile, it might be a good idea to find a slip. Since, theoretically, I will be needing one soon.

Here is another photo, this of the pilothouse sitting area what will (edit: WOULD) basically be my living room. The wet bar is in the cabinet along the wall to the left. The TV on the lift is in the cabinet on the right. I will be pondering how to get a 40" screen in there somehow. Might put in the power and video outlets up front, and then find a way to unplug and stow the TV when we get underway.

 

[oscar]

With a view like that you won't need a TV..... OK, maybe a little one, in the galley to get fed up with the BS in the 5 minutes it takes to make coffee......

 

[CraigC]

Ha! You're right about that. I wish I could have that view, too. But while the current owner can afford to keep the boat at that Yacht Club, I definitely cannot. Anyway, the TV is way down the list, and there's already one in there anyway, just a small one. If I end up taking the boat, it's gonna be the holidays and hopefully the entertainment landscape will be quite different from what it is now... Hopefully.

 

[CraigC]

Had the sea trial and engine survey... Chet did a good job, although I was worried that we ran with the helm's alarm systems off. A couple hours after we got back, he was flipping switches on the panel and flipped a switch for the alarms and two went off on the port engine (low lube oil, high water temp). Engine room high bilge alarm also went off. There was no water in the engine room. But a bit of coolant had sprayed out during the trial, that from the starboard engine, not the port. Just some spatter, but no standing amount.

Got the boat up to over 15 kts and 3200 RPM at WOT, for a couple minutes, which is kind of high for the old triple nickels. Pilot said he had run the boat for the owner 7 times, but never like that before.

Engines started right up, a little bit of smoke but not much. No visible smoke at WOT.

Anyone want to look at the preliminary findings? C lectric maybe?

 

[IRENE]

CraigC,

I would like to see the findings for my own education - but I am afraid I am not qualified to offer any analysis. Thanks for offering and best of luck.

Jeff

 

[Ken E.]

There's a guy on Boatdiesel.com who knows everything about V8 Cummins......Triple Nickles, 903's, 904's. I think his first name is Clark. If you post an inquiry there, I'm sure he'll help you.

 

[CraigC]

Thanks Ken! Great suggestion, and actually, I have followed it, in advance. Both Clark and David, and some others, have been huge helps.

Thanks for your thought, and you are right.

 

[IRENE]

Survey?

Craig,

IIRC you had a survey scheduled this week. How did it turn out, please?

Jeff

 

[CraigC]

Jeff, at this point, I don't know. The engine survey was easy to digest and a few forum members helped a lot. About 10-12 boat bucks will take care of the big issues.

The hull survey covers a lot more, and I have never seen one before and have no benchmark by which to assess it.

There were 44 recommendations, of which 13 were "critical to the safe operation of the vessel." The insurance underwriter said the boat cannot be operated (other than by a professional captain taking the boat to a yard) until the recommendations (presumably the 13) are corrected.

I have no idea if this is normal, or what. I will likely end up emailing you the survey, once I work out the details and if I get the boat.

 

[Insequent]

Hmm, the 13 sound of unusual severity although might not cost that many boat bucks to deal with. eg replacing failing through hulls (if there are any bad ones) wont be that costly. You have an interesting time to figure out the cost of the repairs (incl the 31 non-critical ones), negotiating price adjustments etc. Good luck!

 

[CraigC]

Brian, here are the 13 you speak of

HULL
1. Repack the leaky port side rudder gland and tighten to prevent leakage.
2. Provide steps on the bulkhead below and aft of the forward hatch to assist in egress through the forward escape hatch.
ENGINES
3. Provide a second high volume exhaust blower for the engine room. The blower at the starboard side is noisy and is suspected to be at the end of its service life.
4. Replace both dripless engine shaft glands with new.
5. Replace the cracked exhaust hose for the Onan generator. Hose should be labeled for exhaust duty (installed hose is not).
SAFETY EQUIPMENT
6. Vessel is required by the US Coast Guard to carry currently dated visual distress signals. Suggest an assortment of day and night "Salas" grade flares.
7. Vessel is required to carry a throw-able flotation device.
8. The second starboard stanchion of the bow railing is loose in its base and the upper angle fitting .... Secure.
ELECTRICAL
9. Replace AC receptacles in both heads and below the galley sink with GFCI outlets.
10. Provide a case ground for the Freedom inverter.
II. Provide nonconductive covers for the engine starter solenoid terminals.
12. Provide shielding covers for the back of the port and starboard AC shore cord inlet fixtures.
FIRE EXTINGUISHERS
13. Service and inspect all fire extinguishers and automatic systems. Attach current date tag to help determine next year·s inspection. ALL fire extinguishers should be mounted at visually accessible locations.

 

[Insequent]

I see. Kinda reminds me of my own survey a long time ago now. Insurance reaction, which is in effect 'go directly to repair yard' seems a bit over the top with that list, which has 'many usual suspects' in it. Were it me there would be no show-stoppers there. The insurers will likely want you to deal with the other 31 in some kind of time frame as well.

I had one that could not be satisfied - there was no shutout to prevent engines being started in gear. A number of folks I spoke to said such a device was basically not possible on my gears/engine combo. I think the engine surveyor ought to have known that and not have been so anal to put it on the list of stuff to be fixed !!

So it likely comes down to some judgement, advice from trusted experienced yard folk and negotiation with the insurers. But you now have a good heads up that you will definitely need a bucket of money post-purchase to enjoy the boating lifestyle. Most of us have discovered that, only you can determine if the cost is worth it to you.

 

[sunchaser]

Clark and Celectric are the same guy.

BTW Craig, what is the mention of a coolant leak about?

 

[CraigC]

Brian, the other 31 items do not seem much more or less significant. The nonskid needs to be taken all the way down and redone. Bottom needs a thorough sanding, electrical bonding system and anodes need analysis. The AC wall heater in the engine compartment did not turn on when activated. The water cooling pump for the air conditioning system would not pump water, so the air conditioning system could not be tested. The copper tubing attached at the forward end of the aft water tank shows an extreme amount of corrosion deposits and a leaky inline fitting. The shower sump pump float in the forward mounted sump tank would not activate the sump pump.

And so on....

Sunchaser, per the engine survey, "Both engines leaked coolant during the sea trial, the starboard worse than the port, and actually spraying coolant onto the center walkway- again, brought on by the full throttle conditions. All of the cooling system hoses on both engines are old and need replacing, along with some of the metal pipes, which are rusty."

Needs a cooling system overhaul. Including RWP impellers at minimum, possible RWP rebuilds.

 

[gaston]

Brian, the other 31 items do not seem much more or less significant. The nonskid needs to be taken all the way down and redone. Bottom needs a thorough sanding, electrical bonding system and anodes need analysis. The AC wall heater in the engine compartment did not turn on when activated. The water cooling pump for the air conditioning system would not pump water, so the air conditioning system could not be tested. The copper tubing attached at the forward end of the aft water tank shows an extreme amount of corrosion deposits and a leaky inline fitting. The shower sump pump float in the forward mounted sump tank would not activate the sump pump.

And so on....

Sunchaser, per the engine survey, "Both engines leaked coolant during the sea trial, the starboard worse than the port, and actually spraying coolant onto the center walkway- again, brought on by the full throttle conditions. All of the cooling system hoses on both engines are old and need replacing, along with some of the metal pipes, which are rusty."

Needs a cooling system overhaul. Including RWP impellers at minimum, possible RWP rebuilds.

And you still want this boat

 

[CraigC]

Two buyers before me bailed. One before his survey, and I am not sure if the other one surveyed, or not.

Yes, I still might buck the trend... We shall see.

 

[sunchaser]

Craig

The sea trial was a success in that many issues were found. If it were me I'd tell the salesman that items XYZ need to be fixed with another sea trial then occurring. Lots of electrical gremlins and a non operative Air conditioning system. A corroded water pipe at the tanks, humm. All repairs on the owner's dime of course.

The coolant leaks may be due to more than old hoses. An IR gun in the ER during the run would have been nice as well as a photo tach to verify RPMs.

A proper refit by the sounds of it is required. But, if you want an uninsurable fixer upper with no certainty as to required future repair time and dollars you have found your boat.

 

[IRENE]

Craig,

This boat sounds like the perfect storm of deferred maintenance. No matter how thorough the respective surveyors were, there will be more issues. I have no concern regarding the items that need to be addressed immediately.

I have heard some very experienced boaters mention to expect spending 30% of the boat's value for repairs/refit the first year. What you have shared about this boat tells us that she is in need of a thorough refit. The time, money, and effort required will be significant. The closing comments by Sunchaser are spot on.

If you have not already, take an afternoon with a boat friend to pencil out what this boat will really cost you. Be sure to include the haul outs and yard time. This boat is going to cost a fortune to bring back, and that's OK if you are willing to part with all of that money. l think they need to make a serious concession in the price (100k) for this deal to work, assuming you want to do a refit.

May you find clarity soon...

Jeff

 

[Pau Hana]

Craig,

This boat sounds like the perfect storm of deferred maintenance. No matter how thorough the respective surveyors were, there will be more issues. I have no concern regarding the items that need to be addressed immediately.


Jeff

This is perhaps the best statement in this thread. The only way I might consider proceeding is if the seller addresses the survey refs at his cost prior to closing, or allows for the professional repair of same in the renegotiated price. Even then, I would be suspect of the vessel, especially considering that 2 other buyers dropped out.

 

[CraigC]

Jeff and Pete, I hear you. Per her engineer (who I would likely keep using) the seller "is done spending money on the boat."

We are in the midst of working through this and I should know how it ends anytime now.

As for the bottom paint, numerous local experts have said I should have it sanded down now (to smooth, not completely to gel) and apply Pettit Trinidad, given where I would be mooring the boat. Not SR, but the older formula. And Bikini Blue is a good call... At least I have that answered, if I will need to know.

 

[Island Cessna]

Coolant leak at WOT would put a cracked head or blown head gasket at the top of my suspect list, not old hoses.

 

[Insequent]

All in all its gonna be a project boat. Nice when all done, but lots of time and money. If the owners are 'done on spending' then they will have to discount the price. Or hope a sucker, and not a TF member who is getting good advice, comes along. But it will cost them money to have it sitting unsold while they wait.....

 

[Nick14]

FWIW, I inquired about this boat earlier this year (don't know if it was the same broker currently handling the boat or not).

The original yachtworld listing mentioned a survey being available. When I asked to see it, I was told a comprehensive and recent survey was available, and it would be sent to me.

However, a few days later, I was told that the survey would not be made available until after an offer had been accepted. Though it was a minor bait-and-switch, it left a bad taste in my mouth, and ended my potential interest in the boat.

I noticed that a couple of days later, the yachtworld listing was updated to remove mention of the survey.

As always, with anything and in any situation, caveat emptor.

 

[BruceK]

Jeff and Pete, I hear you. Per her engineer (who I would likely keep using) the seller "is done spending money on the boat."

We are in the midst of working through this and I should know how it ends anytime now...

As long as he`s not tired of making allowance deductions to buyers there are still prospects of a deal, but it`s getting scary.
I`m with Island Cessna on head gasket as possible cause of coolant leaks under high load. If its piping, metal or rubber, the leak source should be discoverable, by careful examination at rest, or someone not afraid of being sprayed with hot coolant . Could get expensive...

 

[O C Diver]

If you're not capable of doing a significant percentage of the work on it yourself, I would pass. Not to question the quality of the surveyor, but on a boat of this size, there are probably 1 or 2 undiscovered surprises. I could see myself taking on this project as most of the items are within my capacity. Boats in this situation just don't make sense if every item has a $75 to $100 per hour price tag associated with it.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

Craig C

On a different but still active TF thread is a information on a 51 DeFever POC for sale. The owner has expressed willingness to deal. Look it up, it may be better and all in no more money than you are currently looking at spending.

The owner also sounds anal about condition - good!

 

[BruceK]

This one? http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s9/51-defever-rare-bristol-28884.html#post497372.

 

[Insequent]

Craig
So you have done it then. How did the various surveys and negotiations pan out?

 

[CraigC]

Brian - well, I did not get the deal I wanted, but I did get the boat I wanted. I guess that is the main thing. Surveys revealed some things I can do on my own, and some things which can be fixed or improved. I have no idea what a good or bad survey looks like. But I know that my boat is somewhat unique and works for me on several levels.

I am getting ready to read up on your solar project. I would really like to be able to find some of those 330W Sunpower panels - in some parts, they are used by BenQ (now AU Optronics), which are selling at about US$1/watt. But that is in Europe, and I can't seem to find them here. The Solara panels are crazy expensive - no way can I afford those. I also have questions about the MPPT controllers. My electronics guy said I should connect the panels in serial and use one appropriately sized controller for all of them. Some other factors - will address on your Insequent solar thread.

I continue to get lots of great advice on the engine/power topic, without which, I have no clue, I would probably be totally lost.

 

[Insequent]

To get the boat you want is worth a lot, and in the long run I'm sure you won't regret it one bit, even if there are a few 'ouch' moments in the wallet along the way.

For solar, particularly large W panels you almost certainly should connect them in parallel. My 345W Sunpower panels are 65V, so you could easily exceed the controller's maximum voltage with serial connections. My controller, like many, is output current limited. So if I changed from 12V house bank to 24V house bank I could have twice as many panels connected. Were I starting from scratch, knowing what I now know, I may even have gone for a 48V house bank and a mostly AC (household not marine appliances) equiped boat.