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Old 05-17-2010, 12:22 PM   #1
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Engine hours vs Age

It's not the hours it's the years.

Most diesel engines will run almost forever is run constantly.*
More and more I see engines with 1/2 the rated hours before a rebuild going ti*s up.
I am convinced it is all the starting running up to temp shutting down over*and over again.
Does anyone use a pre luber to pre oil the engine prior to start up?
Do they make such an animal for your engine?

SD
<cite>www.engineprelube.com/*
d
</cite>I found this on the web* Any thoughts?
SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 17th of May 2010 02:21:55 PM

-- Edited by skipperdude on Monday 17th of May 2010 02:22:36 PM
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:59 PM   #2
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

My wife works in the business. Her boss has been in the business of maintaining boats for over 25 years. He says that most diesel engines decompose from the outside in....and that one of THE best investments is a block heater or at least an engine room heater to keep the engine(space) dry.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:28 PM   #3
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

An engine blockheater sounds like a good idea. So does the prelube. Wear is a result of contact, load and motion. If you put a film of oil in place before you spin the engine over should reduce the wear on rotating components to about nill.
Ring and liner wear should be low on a boat too. Minimal dust and contamination.
Baker,
What is the recommended method of keeping a dry engine room?
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:51 PM   #4
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

He said even a small space heater in the engine room is a good start. The biggest issue is in the winter time when there is such a swing in temperature throughout the day. The engine(and metal fuel tanks get so cold at night and then retains that cold(high specific heat) as the warmer part of the day comes on and then everything sweats. A heater would prevent this.
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:07 PM   #5
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

We keep an electric oil heater in the engine room during the winter. The kind that looks like an old-fashioned steam radiator. It keeps the engine room about 50-60 degrees, which not only keeps things dry but the engines start right now even on day of near or below freezing temperatures.
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Old 05-18-2010, 05:02 AM   #6
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Engine hours vs Age

Pre-lubing is a great idea , but following Da Book for "out of service: time (over a month) is even better.

A Po Boy prelube can be home built.

An electric solenoid and a old propane bottle or CO2 bottle that will hold a couple of galons is needed.

!st time,The oil is filled and on start up the valve is open to an oil pressure line, allowing the inverted tank to fill,the valve is switched closed then the oil level is refilled.

The next cold start the engine gets the valve opened , you will see oil pressure , and the starter engaged.

The pre lube valve is shut a min. or so (highest oil pressure when cold) after start and you are on your way , no big bucks or huge battery drain.

At the power pole NOTHGING !! is better than a factory block heater in the water jacket on the night before you go.


-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 05:03:56 AM
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:06 PM   #7
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Engine hours vs Age

I installed the Webasto Diesel boiler and hot water heater in the engine room which keeps it at 70+ degrees and dry. A lot depends if the engine if a 2 or 4 stroke. On a 2 stroke there are cylinders open, so the pistons need to be moved to a different position.* I start the gen and 671 every month and let run for about 30 seconds to move the parts/and fluids.* When stop make sure it does not stop in the same spot, so the same cylinders are not open.** I also put the transmission in gear to rotate the shaft as long SS shafts tend to shag if left in one spot.* Some will just bump the engine to make sure the pistons are not in the same position.*

The other thing is under loading, not getting the engine up to temp when running for long periods.* We leave the dock only in the summer months and not that often or long. Mostly 2 to 6 hour runs, but tend to run a little bit on the hard side, which pushes a lot of water and does waste fuel. We cruise at 8 to 10 knots which is a little above hull speed.*
*
There is the age old discussion of cold vs. warm starts which has more validity, if the temps are extremely cold.* My diesel pickup has a block heater that I plug in when the weather drops below freezing for weeks at a time.* If we move to colder claims and/or stop heating the boat will have the Webasto pre heat the engine.*I also pre pressurize the*fuel system so the engines start at the push of the button.* I prefer to start the engines in the engine rooms so I can see/hear/ feel what is happening.* If they do not start with in*a coupler of *seconds something is wrong?

I think wear and not maintaining properly rather than age.* There ae thousand of engines that are 50+ year, but parts/service are still available***


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 02:36:34 PM

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 02:39:13 PM
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:17 PM   #8
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Engine hours vs Age

We don't get very cold weather here in Auckland, NZ. A frost maybe 10 days a year.

I keep the hot water cylinder element running on shore power year round. I figure that the coolant circuit in the cylinder will get hot and, by convection, at least some of this heat will be transfered to the engine.

The engine doesn't feel warm to the touch, but the engine room does stay dry with no condensation. The engine is 30 years old but has*done only 700 hours since a complete rebuild.

-- Edited by Bendit on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 02:18:43 PM
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:32 PM   #9
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

Circulating the coolant from the water heater could be a great way to keep your engine temp up a bit. Ours runs to the stbd. engine so it wouldn't cover both engines.
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Old 05-20-2010, 05:08 AM   #10
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

" On a 2 stroke there are cylinders open, so the pistons need to be moved to a different position.
"
Same with a 4 stroke , there are ALWAYS intake or exhaust valves open.

The torture of dry starts once a month will scrape the small rust from the cylinder walls , but at the cost of cylinder and bearing wear , as well as much increased water and acids in the lube oil.


My process for a 6-71 is fast and cheap.(the second time)

Purchase new gaskets for the "air box covers", remove the covers and install the new gaskets.

After your annual 4 hours of pain , pull the single bolt that holds each cover in place , and spray the cylinders above the piston with Fogging oil. Crank 1/2 turn and spray the rest.

Button her up and you can take the next 11 months off.
The engine compression will be your reward.
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Old 05-21-2010, 08:41 AM   #11
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Engine hours vs Age

Like many vessels, we put a heat exchanger on the coolant loop with the output routed through the electric H20 heater.* Convection seems to keep the block warm to the touch, which reduces condensation and subsequent wear from light rust if the engine sits too long.* If convection doesn't cut it, installation of a fractional hp circ pump on that line will keep the block at most any temperature you want, which might be necessary for colder climates.

I looked into prelubers but never got a concensus on their value relative to just keeping the engine warm and running it regularly with clean oil.* Heating an engine from the outside in cold climates may be a lot less effective than heating it from the inside via the coolant system.



-- Edited by Delfin on Friday 21st of May 2010 08:43:09 AM
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Old 05-21-2010, 09:53 AM   #12
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

I think an important part of this is to warm up and cool down slowly. When I get under way I start and let her run at lowest rpm for at least a min or two. Rough running will be the norm. I thought this was bad when I was a truck driver but an old mechanic advised me to "just let her chug". Two min of chugging is plenty. Then I bump her up to 1000 rpm. I fuss around for several min before dropping mooring lines and electrical chord. Dang * *.. once in a while I still forget the electrical chord. Then I maneuver the boat away from the slip and down the fairway at 1100 to 1400rpm. No more * *.. no less. I stay at 1400 for quite a while considering this period to be the largest part of warm up. Ten min min. Then up to 2000rpm for at least 5 min and finally up to 2300rpm * *.. my cruise speed 95% of the time. I run 2500 when I feel the need for speed (over 6.15 knots). I have an engine that develops it's max power at 3000rpm and at WOT mine makes 3025 to 3050 rpm. To compare this to your own boat consider the power loadings (rpm) and and deduct it from your own max power/WOT engine speeds. Rough use # of rpm down from max WOT and more accurate use percentage of WOT. This all assumes your'e propped correctly w WOT reaching your max power engine speed * * .. as in 2500 for an old Lehman. If your'e over propped you should never run your engine anywhere near full throttle. If your 100rpm down at WOT (as in 2400 for the Lehman) and the Lehman people say 2300rpm is max continuous you will not be able to do that. 2300 will be overloaded for you and it gets worse as over propping gets worse. If your WOT speed is 2200 then it probably won't be safe to operate continuously at 1900. Maybe but maybe not. Nobody knows unless your'e propped correctly. I'm not saying that if your Lehman is over propped at 2300rpm max you can't run at 1600 all day every day but again * *..nobody knows so your'e suffering a huge loss in available power and may as well get a smaller engine. Many engines have run for years and years over propped but they probably have been run at 40% load or less. The above is offered strictly as opinion but I believe warming up, cooling down, and correctly loading your engine is very important for long engine life.

Eric Henning
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:01 AM   #13
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

Being as how most of engine wear is at the start up. Or not.*

*Help me out here.

only FF*has commented on the pre-luber. I posted at the start of this thread.

does not anyone find this to be a viable product to prevent the start up wear on the engine.
Or is it snake oil.
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:15 AM   #14
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

Skipperdude,

I have been under the impression that for years now*the*oil that covers the bearing surface is sufficient to protect the surface at start up.* Now how long after the first few seconds can it go with out fresh clean oil is another matter.* But I think that if everything (oil pump,*oil filter)*is operating as designed in late model (50's and up) engines and the engine is allowed a reasonable amount of time to heat up a bit you are golden.*

Keep in mind how many people just start a car engine, no matter what the temperature outside is and just drive off.* They go 150 - 200 k before real damage occurs.* So just a little more care than that should give you a long engine life.

JMO.
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Old 05-21-2010, 10:23 AM   #15
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Engine hours vs Age

Some engines*have a feature where you can crank the engine without starting it. This pumps oil to the critical parts in advance of idle RPM. My Perkins Sabres have this and the manual says "If sitting longer than 1 month* --" do this trick.

I doubt FF's 1938 6-71 is set up this way though.



-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 21st of May 2010 10:25:26 AM
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:57 AM   #16
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Engine hours vs Age

All the engine experts I've talked to over the years--- the mechanics at a couple of diesel shops, friends in the marine engine industry, a couple of RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Iinstitute in UK who maintain boats ready to go instantly), etc.--- have been fairly scornful of the notion of cranking an engine for a bit before starting it. All that does, they said, is wear out the starter faster. The difference it will make in reducing the wear on the moving parts will be minimal and they all said that the typical engine will fail for some other resaon--- bad valve(s), failed head gasket, broken ring, etc--- long before the wear caused by startup will have any noticeable detrimental effect. Based on all this, I've concluded that pre-lubing an engine by turning it with the starter, while not quite an armchair theory, is not worth doing.

This kind of pre-lubing is possible with a Lehman 120 since the engine can be cranked with the fuel shutoff levers pulled. But I've never heard anyone who knows or works on these engines recommend this. The only exceptions have been a few people who said that after long periods of sitting--- like all winter--- it's a good idea. But on an engine that is used regularly, even if the time between uses is a couple of months, it accomplishes nothing in terms of adding engine longevity but it does, if done every time the engines are started, contribute toward hastening the day when the starter will give out.

There are engines that have been designed with pre-lube systems in them.* As they've been explained to me, these systems pump oil throughout the engine prior to the engines being started.* So when the engines are turned for starting, the oil pressure is already up.* That makes sense for engines that benefit from or require this degree of lubrication at startup because the engine components never move until full oil pressure exists at all the lubrication points.* That's different than turning over the engine with the starter with no oil pressure anywhere.

Now pre-warming an engine is worthwhile, these folks all said. In the case of the RNLI engineers, their lifeboats (see photo) are kept in their slips or on their launching slipways ready to be started and go to full throttle immediately. So the coolant in their engines (GM6V92) is kept circulating at the engine's full operating temperature 24/7/365.

We don't have this sort of system in our boat, obviously, but in the colder months in the PNW, usually October through April, we keep an electric oil heater in the engine room which maintains the temperature at about 55 to 60 degrees. As a result, the engines start instantly even in the dead of February. This avoids the prolonged turning on the starter and the reluctant, rough, "chugging" start that you can get with a very cold diesel that does not have glow plugs or air pre-heat systems on it, which the Lehman does not (our Onan generator does). This, the engine people I've talked to said, is something to avoid if at all possible.

The RNLI lifeboat in the photo is the "William Street" and is based in Fleetwood, England. Several years ago I had the rare priviledge of being invited to go out on the "Street" during a training exercise during which they let me con the boat for a couple of hours in Morcambe Bay. They told me RNLI boats are operated at two engine speeds only, idle and full throttle. They weren't kidding.



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 21st of May 2010 12:05:39 PM
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:57 PM   #17
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

At the begining of this thread I posted a link to a pre-lube. A retrofit.

It is basicly an external tank of oil that is pumped thru the oil galley and kept at a constant pressure like the accumulator tank on your water system.

It does not refer to pre cranking the engine or warming the engine itself. it is just pre pressurized oil flowing thru the motor.

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Old 05-21-2010, 12:57 PM   #18
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:
does not anyone find this to be a viable product to prevent the start up wear on the engine.
Or is it snake oil.
*Prelube and turbocharger (soakback) pumps are not snake oil by any means.

The device FF described is better than nothing but it takes more than a couple of gallons to prelube an engine. In the case of his homebuilt one-shot unit, the cold oil would hardly reach*a quarter of*the bearings before the pressure dropped off to nothing. It would be a waste*of time and money for all but a single or twin cylinder engine in my opinion.

An oilpan*heater ala the glue on aircraft type or the magnetic type in conjunction with a jacket water heater is good. I have used a 110VAC water heater element in galvanized pipe with a hydronic heat system circ pump and thermostat to keep the block warm. Running the prelube pump for a few minutes before starting warmed the oil and supplied every bearing and piston. All the parts are available off the shelf and none have to have a "marine" label or pricetag.
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Old 05-21-2010, 01:00 PM   #19
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RE: Engine hours vs Age

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:

At the begining of this thread I posted a link to a pre-lube. A retrofit.


*And FF described it like he invented it. My take on it is in my post above.
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Old 05-21-2010, 01:26 PM   #20
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Engine hours vs Age

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:
I doubt FF's 1938 6-71 is set up this way though.
Not many engines of that vintage didn't have the facility to be cranked without admitting fuel to the cylinders. Most were designed to be cranked to ensure the cylinders were clear of water and lube oil pressure was rising, then the fuel lever was engaged to start.

At "finished with engines" the*fuel lever was pulled to shutoff the fuel and that is how the engine was stopped.

-- Edited by RickB on Friday 21st of May 2010 01:29:34 PM
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