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Old 04-10-2016, 09:54 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Forespar Marelon fittings are composite.....and seem very durable...probably more so than if your bronze is attacked or wearing away from flow.


What Marelon Is
Anyone have use results for Marelon in their boat[s]? Good points?? / Bad points??

https://www.forespar.com/pdf/techTip...bing-chart.pdf
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:37 AM   #102
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As a testament to how good bronze or 'naval brass' is, I offer this evidence.
In 1998, I got this boat. I found out all 4 cast iron Bar 20.0000 riser were rusted out and some leaking internally, outside looked ok. So I bought 4 risers for $1000.
Lots of money to me!
So I wanted to make the risers all FWC.
I modded them to do this.
So from Hampton Rubber, in Hampton VA, I bought two 2.5" 12 inch pipe bronze nipples and two SS 3/8" 12 inch long pipe nipples.
I asked HR, and was told the pipe is 'Naval Brass'. It is not bright yellow color. It is more reddish color.
I cut them in half, so had 4 pieces of pipes
And four galvanised 3/4 " elbows and two close nipples.
I brazed shut the water exit hole in the riser.
I knocked out the upper core plug in riser and brazed on one elbow. OEM water inlet was already threaded, so attached elbow there. This was then included in the FWC cooling circuit of exhaust manifolds and engine block.

I brazed on the 2.5 inch bronze nipple to risers exhaust exit.
Drilled a hole at an angle and silver brazed SS pipe to the bronze nipple. This takes the raw salt water for cooling.

Here is the part in 2016, was new in 1999. Bronze pipe is to left, red hose is salt water. The other 2 hose hookups are FWC.


The bronze welded on part and SS pipe are in perfect condition after 16 years of use in ocean water with hot exhaust and salt water running through them.

No rust on the inner water passage of the riser. However the cast iron exhaust surface exposed to hot salty air-fumes-vapors will still rust.

Looking down the exit pipe


Other end of riser


I have been thinking If I live long enough, I would buy some SS 304 elbows and pipes and make a new dry riser. Cut off the bronze pipe and turn it around screwed into the upper elbow. I think these risers still have another 15 years of life left.

The riser attaches to the log manifold by way of this adapter. I had new ones made of steel, but they were rusting, so I coated on with braze this time. And earlier one I had coated 2 years ago with Permatex Ultra copper, and no rust, it also withstood the exhaust heat.


I carefully cleaned some carbon off and you cans see the red gasket maker is still on the inside surface pipe. I was very impressed considering hot exhaust is very hot.


SO I recoated for another test this part with Ultra Copper.
This time both inside and the outside are coated. I just used my finger to smear it on, really does not take that much silicone gasket maker. It turns into a soft rubber coating. The inner surface I put on two coats.

So I hope you see the pics.


I have also coated an ONAN gen exhaust which always rusted between block and where the cooling water exists, too hot to hold paint, but this Ultra copper it stays on the metal and no more rusting.
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:48 AM   #103
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As a testament to how good bronze or 'naval brass' is, I offer this evidence.
Hard to tell from a photo but it does not look like Naval Brass to me. "Bronze" and "Naval brass" are two completely different materials. Naval brass contains about 40% zinc (all bets are off if its Chinese) and is subject to dezincification exactly like the Beneteau ball valves under discussion in this thread.
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:58 AM   #104
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Hard to tell from a photo but it does not look like Naval Brass to me. "Bronze" and "Naval brass" are two completely different materials. Naval brass contains about 40% zinc (all bets are off if its Chinese) and is subject to dezincification exactly like the Beneteau ball valves under discussion in this thread.
Just going by what the counter sales guy said, but who knows? HR does sell a lot to marine people their items.

I was also concerned the brazing rod was it brass or bronze? So called welding shops and they told me bronze, not brass. These are white flux coated brazing rods. There has been no degradation, no pinking of the braze between the pipe and the cast iron.

The pipe threads where the rubber clamps on, no dezincing, in perfect shape like new. That area would catch salt water and be wet a lot.

The silver braze of bronze to SS 304, also perfect. SS pipe on inside is perfect. I cant recall if they said 316 or 304, so I am assuming it is 304.

Anyway, look how it has held up for 16 years in hot salt water usage.
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:50 AM   #105
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So I'm to lazy to read through this whole thread....is this unique to this brand of boat?
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Old 04-11-2016, 07:33 PM   #106
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UPDATE: Huge props and thanks to Beneteau America. As previously mentioned upon sending the before and after, and then after pics to them they sent a Sr Service Advisor from Annapolis for a coast to coast trip to have a live look at the boat. He was on the boat for 4 hours for a lengthy conversation and several hours of investigation and trouble shooting.
Ironically after he left I got a call from him thinking it was a butt dial, he actually came back because he said he wanted to check the under water lights and extra pumps and alarms that have been installed in the last year and he just wanted to make sure.

Using a Multi Meter with reference electrode in the water dozens of checks were run.
It was tied Tied to engine blocks, thru hulls, rudders, etc
Then we literally ran every piece of electronics from Gen Set, shore power, AC, lights, radar, VHF, alt/off on and then all on. The readings stayed within the sweet spot of -.95 Hull Potential with extremely negligible movement. No stray current was witnessed.

The problem was specific and isolated to two of the same make of thru hulls used to tie to the stuffing box.The two other ones actually had Salt build up on them. Those were thru hulls for the AC units and I have removed the hoses in the past to remove air bubbles and as such there was salt residue. Although he did suggest how to shorten the hoses removing the dip in them to avoid that in the future.

The hypothesis following all of the tests and identifying they were both the same make and model probably built from the same run was that something was wrong with the alloy mixture or it had gotten contaminated. All of the other thru hulls on the boat were “clean”.

Beneteau has transitioned to using Groco thru hulls and they are providing me with two new ones as well as shaft valves. Hopefully this will solve the mystery.

Although this was clearly not identified as a problem, I would suggest to everyone to make sure you are aware of all of the zincs required by the factory. The diver did ascertain a couple of days ago that it appears that there were no rudder zincs that have been in place for years and I know the prop zinc has not been on for at least a year although they are factory specified. I learned about them on boatzincs.com and they were put on a couple of days ago. Whether these had any contribution to the problem is obviously unknown. I did mentioned to him that it would be helpful to specify in manuals the specifics and location for owners, which was duly noted.

I am super appreciative of this level of customer service and support and hope this thread has been useful to others.

Chris
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Old 04-11-2016, 07:47 PM   #107
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I have to applaud them. They made the effort and the source of the problem was identified.

Now, I wonder how many other ST's have had the exact same problem. I hope they realize that yours wasn't probably the only one. In my mind they did themselves a world of good relations with this trip today. The most common criticism I've heard of their boats has been similar to your experience.

I would also say to anyone with any boat having such problems, get someone out there with the knowledge and equipment to track it down. Also a reminder that what is so commonly called a zinc, isn't. It's an alloy. One little slip by the manufacturer and it's now what it needs to be.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:01 PM   #108
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Hahahaha....Busted.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:13 PM   #109
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I have to applaud them. They made the effort and the source of the problem was identified.

Now, I wonder how many other ST's have had the exact same problem. I hope they realize that yours wasn't probably the only one. In my mind they did themselves a world of good relations with this trip today. The most common criticism I've heard of their boats has been similar to your experience.

.
BandB Yes this is stellar customer support. Honestly because the boat is primarily "out of warranty" I would have understood if they said "Bummer it would be a good idea to find a specialist in the area to help you out" Not expecting this level of support I actually had located someone in the bay area that got high marks. I simply sent them the pics to see if they had any feedback or input.

While it certainly helped me, one of the reasons they made the trip is that they have not seen this specific issue before and wanted to understand it for the greater good. If this is as we believe limited to the contamination of a specific run of those parts they may or may not show up in other ST's or any other manufacturer using them. As I mentioned they have transitioned away from this specific manufacturer to Groco I believe for all of their boats.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:18 PM   #110
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Hahahaha....Busted.
Actually this was "before" I ordered the specific zincs required and hand them to the divers In the old days it was clean the boat and check "the zincs". Also in all fairness those zincs may or may not have been relevant to the specific problem. If a contaminated run then probably not. Although I know know my Hull Potential is Perfect!
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:23 PM   #111
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Greetings,
Mr. CB. Apologies...
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:30 PM   #112
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Greetings,
Mr. CB. Apologies...
Actually I have now been informed that those zincs would have had nothing to do with the problem because the thru hulls in question are tied to a 6" x 12" plate on the stern.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:00 PM   #113
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Art ....have used Marelon since the 90s. Can't say for sure they are all operating normally as I am not on the boats anymore.

Marlon does have a reputation for sticking is not exercised regularly.

It is very tough stuff in the larger sizes.
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:25 PM   #114
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While it certainly helped me, one of the reasons they made the trip is that they have not seen this specific issue before and wanted to understand it for the greater good.
I think the only reason they haven't seen it before is they didn't look.
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:40 PM   #115
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Glad to hear you are getting the service you deserve but for them to deny what has been common knowledge for years, I believe is somewhat disingenuous. Check out Paul Stevens article in Yachting Monthly from 2011. You can google several other articles on this issue going back to 1988 when CE permitted this situation to happen by changing the standard.
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:06 PM   #116
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Glad to hear you are getting the service you deserve but for them to deny what has been common knowledge for years, I believe is somewhat disingenuous. Check out Paul Stevens article in Yachting Monthly from 2011
Totally understand your point. I have only been a Beneteau owner for 3 years and as such my history starts at that point. Prior to that I bare-boated several Beneteau sailboats out of Marina Del Rey and loved them but not as an owner.

I have heard/read/researched the thru hull conversations and obviously had issues myself, thus the thread and post.

I am not sure of prior management/corporate reasoning or denials. I can only speak on my current experience. I believe they have changed the thru hull original equipment on their boats to Groco and have provided fairly spectacular customer service when given the heads up on this specific issue.
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:23 PM   #117
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Totally understand your point. I have only been a Beneteau owner for 3 years and as such my history starts at that point. Prior to that I bare-boated several Beneteau sailboats out of Marina Del Rey and loved them but not as an owner.

I have heard/read/researched the thru hull conversations and obviously had issues myself, thus the thread and post.

I am not sure of prior management/corporate reasoning or denials. I can only speak on my current experience. I believe they have changed the thru hull original equipment on their boats to Groco and have provided fairly spectacular customer service when given the heads up on this specific issue.
At least not hard to fix, just buy decent bronze parts. The OEM is saving money I think by using cheaper parts, but they cant be saving all that much money.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:02 AM   #118
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I think the only reason they haven't seen it before is they didn't look.
My 2 Cents and a guess (which might be worth 4 cents, but that is before taxes) is that there may be a new Management direction and focus in the US and maybe globally but have no knowledge of that.

I also think as another poster pointed out, the difference in cost is probably not that significant in the grand scheme of the world, they have been getting dinged so install better parts. I don't know who the manufacturer is for the suspect thru hulls but I do not believe it is Groco.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:30 AM   #119
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Are you the original owner of the boat? What is bothering me about your experience is why did it take 3 years to notice the problem?
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