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Old 01-03-2016, 02:10 AM   #61
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Dude, Yes both pumps would run if you switch it to manual. You can probably get away with it. These type of pumps can run dry for a surprisingly long time. Fuse size might be an issue.

I would install a separate switch for the sump. It's not hard or expensive.

3 position witches always remind me of the Lucas model once posted.
The 3 positions were Off/Dim/Flicker.
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Old 01-03-2016, 08:56 AM   #62
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When I owned a British car, I always kept a can of replacement smoke to put back in the wires when it leaked out.
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Old 01-03-2016, 10:50 AM   #63
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3 position witches always remind me of the Lucas model once posted.
Wifey B: "3 position witches"...... Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:14 AM   #64
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A vessel not plugged into shore power does eliminate the possibility of galvanic and stray current corrosion via other vessels, i.e. your zinc anodes protecting a nearby boat, or your underwater metals being consumed by a fault from a nearby vessel. I welcome that approach, however, it's not one many boat owners are willing to take. If plugged in, a galvanic isolator will prevent most galvanic corrosion issues with the aforementioned limitations, and an isolation transformer will minimize the possibility of stray current corrosion. I say 'minimize' because in some rare cases stray current from a neighboring vessel can enter an underwater metal, travel over a bonding wire and exit at another metal. Again, this is exceedingly rare. This scenario, unlikely though it is, is often used as an argument against bonding, and because of its infrequency it's a poor one. A properly designed (including a galvanic isolator or isolation transformer) and installed, and well-maintained (including anodes) bonding system offers a host of advantages against corrosion, electrocution and lightning damage, with the only exception being in wooden vessels. Bonded (anodically over-protected) metals can produce an alkaline solution that is harmless to the metal and fiberglass (it can cause paint blistering and halos), however, it does lead to delignification in wood, which compromises its integrity.

Once again, in the case with which this thread began, the pinkish hue is a clear indication of dezincification of an alloy ill-suited to underwater use. A well-maintained, low resistance bonding system and zinc anodes may have held this corrosion at bay for some time, however, if the zincs were depleted or the bonding system was compromised by corrosion or a poor connection, then the ignoble zinc in the copper-zinc alloy through hulls would begin to corrode.

Regardless of bonding system or anode condition, copper alloy metals that are prone to dezincification, brass in this case, are inappropriate for underwater use. Europeans, in an effort to reduce this type of failure, have developed the DZR, dezincification resistant alloy standard. In many cases these alloys still contain brass, however, it's alloyed in such a way as to resist dezincification. It's worth noting, however, it's dezincification resistant, rather then dezincification-proof. Only alloys that contain little or no (2% or less) zinc are dezincification proof. Generally, in the US, the zinc threshold is 15%, 10% is better. Most common pipe nipples are made from an alloy called leaded read brass, with brass being the operative word, they contain zinc, ideally 10% or less, however, there is no way of knowing how much zinc is contained in a copper ally by simply looking at it (anecdotally, if it looks yellow it almost certainly contains more than 10% zinc). I've seen these nippels corrode and perforate, when used in an air-conditioning raw water system, in less than a year of use. I've also encountered cases where a brass quarter inch pipe plug resulted in the sinking of a vessel after it dezincified and fell out of a sea strainer. This article offers additional details on the subject of brass and dezincification Know your Underwater Alloys | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

Corrosion is an area that is all too frequently misunderstood, even and especially by marine industry professionals. They often have good intentions, however, they lack the understanding of the corrosion processes to properly troubleshoot these problems, and as such they either spend a great deal of time (and your money) without finding a cause or solution or they misdiagnose the problem. If, in offering an explanation, they are unable to trace the path of the electrons, literally, then their understanding of the problem should be suspect.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:48 AM   #65
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Wifey B: "3 position witches"...... Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? Sorry, just couldn't help myself.
If you ever use old Lucas circuitry, "witches" might be the kindest thing you'll call them.
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Old 01-03-2016, 12:08 PM   #66
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Wifey B: "3 position witches"...... Is "posted" a euphemism for something else? Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

Reading your response this popped into my head. Sometimes I feel like this is how my own deductive reasoning process goes in my mind.

- There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us. - Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with witches?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from witches?
- More witches! - Wood!
- So why do witches burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood? - Good!
- How do we tell if she is made of wood? - Build a bridge out of her.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats. - Throw her into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread. - Apples.
- Very small rocks. - Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud. - Churches.
- Lead. - A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!
- A duck! A duck! - Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the witch !
- Remove the supports!
- A witch!
- It's a fair cop.
- Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?

From The Holy Grail...
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:22 PM   #67
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A vessel not plugged into shore power does eliminate the possibility of galvanic and stray current corrosion via other vessels, i.e. your zinc anodes protecting a nearby boat, or your underwater metals being consumed by a fault from a nearby vessel. I welcome that approach, however, it's not one many boat owners are willing to take.
Steve - Why is it that many boat owners are not willing to leave their boat isolated in berth? Scarred the boat could get lonely?? LOL Maybe fearful the boat could leak and bilge pumps will kill the batts - that's what ins premiums are paid for? Or, beer will not be chilled in fridge upon arrival?? Just being funny... sort of, but, I really am wondering!

Can't get more simple to stop metal deterioration than isolation.
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:37 PM   #68
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I can say that I will leave my boat plugged in year round. During summer when I am normally gone, I leave the Air Systems on "dehumidify" and that controls / eliminates any mold issues, etc. on the boat. It keeps the batteries tended, etc. Being lucky in my current marina, my anodes show very little wear, I expect that to increase in the hotter weather, but I could be wrong. The water is on the fresh side of brackish, leaning on the fresh side I would say most of the year. I could see where someone has a boat leaking into the water and tearing other boats up would be a problem. I wonder if there is some affordable probing device available to test the water in any port where you decide to stay?
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:59 PM   #69
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Thanks for the post link, fst. Worth the time to review. Being that we currently boat exclusively in fresh water the info defiantly has me/us on point.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:01 PM   #70
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Boating around the country has different needs and ways of boating...

Most boaters I know from NJ to FL and even Alaska leave their boats plugged in if they have shore power...for a variety of reasons.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:17 AM   #71
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Plugged in is the norm, for better or worse, for battery charge, bilge pumps, refrigeration and HVAC.

If you wished, you could install a permanent reference electrode that would monitor the protection level of your underwater metals. In the event of a stray current corrosion scenario you'd see a significant change in protection, and if your anodes were depleted you'd also see a change, alerting you to an issue.

From the standpoint of monitoring for a fault that could lead to ESD, yes, it's called an ELCI circuit breaker, it affords the entire vessel ground fault protection, albeit at a higher threshold, 30 milliamps, than a conventional GFCI receptacle, which trips at 5-7 milliamps. If you have a fault aboard the ELCI will trip. These are being installed by some marinas on the dock pedestal and many new boats that are built to meet the ABYC/NMMA standard include them.

The problem with ground faults that they are often intermittent, I routinely encounter these on HVAC systems, the fault is only present when the system kicks in, and not when it's idle.

Not to beat a dead horse, however, and while it may have been said already, you, and particularly children, should never swim around boats and docks equipped with shore power, salt or freshwater, period. I'm well aware of the salt water negation issue, however, for the reasons I detailed earlier, with changes in salinity, one can never be certain, and I can't say with absolute assurance that an ESD could never occur in salt water. If you choose to do this it's certainly your decision, however, marine industry pro's should never dismiss as impossible ESD in salt or brackish water.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:22 AM   #72
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... you... should never swim around boats and docks equipped with shore power, salt or freshwater, period.
From a boat maintenance standpoint, this is impractical. And again, my own personal, professional experience is that you are far more likely to be killed or injured simply driving to your saltwater marina than you are by swimming in it.


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If you choose to do this it's certainly your decision, however, marine industry pro's should never dismiss as impossible ESD in salt or brackish water.
This marine industry pro, at least, unplugs every boat he works on, ESD danger or no.
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Old 01-04-2016, 03:43 PM   #73
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From a boat maintenance standpoint, this is impractical. And again, my own personal, professional experience is that you are far more likely to be killed or injured simply driving to your saltwater marina than you are by swimming in it.




This marine industry pro, at least, unplugs every boat he works on, ESD danger or no.
Not always

See my post a ways back, it was my diver that alerted me to a problem. He felt a strange tingle when cleaning my boat (the water was less salt then normal due to much rain) when I had a electric survey done we found 6+ amps AC leaking into the boat. When we checked the only nearby boat plugged into the dock he was leaking over 8 amps due to an AC neutral being connected to the common ground via the green wire. Remember the common ground is also your bonding as AC and DC grounds are common.

It was like running a wire from the neutral at the pedestal right into the water. If someone fell into the water next to the sailboat ESD was very likely or even cardiac arrest.

The same electrician was hired to find and fix the problem I was shown the wiring error and it looked like someone added an outlet with no knowledge of what they were doing.

The electrician told me that household appliances (refrigerators,automotive battery chargers, microwave ovens etc) will also do the same thing if they have 3 wires as often they ground the body and the neutral internally and will often cause this dangerous problem.

If for marine use, household appliances should be checked for neutral to ground continuity and corrected if found.
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:00 PM   #74
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Not always

See my post a ways back, it was my diver that alerted me to a problem. He felt a strange tingle when cleaning my boat (the water was less salt then normal due to much rain) when I had a electric survey done we found 6+ amps AC leaking into the boat. When we checked the only nearby boat plugged into the dock he was leaking over 8 amps due to an AC neutral being connected to the common ground via the green wire.
Yes. I too know hull cleaners who have felt obvious electricity in the water. But your diver wasn't injured or killed. Nor were the divers I know. Few (if any) are, in saltwater. That is the point.
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:06 PM   #75
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Yes. I too know hull cleaners who have felt obvious electricity in the water. But your diver wasn't injured or killed. Few (if any) are, in saltwater. That is the point.


Agree 100%

As long as the water is always 100% salt, however in many, many, locations that is far from the case. They don't hang harbor salinity flags at most marinas as far as I know.

You don't always know you are in 100% salt water and THAT is also the point.

Stay frosty, my friend!
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Old 01-04-2016, 04:34 PM   #76
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Agree 100%

As long as the water is always 100% salt, however in many, many, locations that is far from the case. They don't hang harbor salinity flags at most marinas as far as I know.

You don't always know you are in 100% salt water and THAT is also the point.

Stay frosty, my friend!
100% salt? Wouldn't that be a bit thick and difficult to move around in? I do know what you mean, but the fact it's only got a certain salt content also makes one feel safer knowing that it's going to have a reasonable content of salt regardless of storms or other factors. It's not going to turn from salt to fresh.

As to swimming in a marina slip as mentioned earlier, I'm use to that being a forbidden activity. While marinas in our area will allow divers for bottom cleaning, they won't allow swimming.
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Old 02-07-2016, 12:34 PM   #77
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Hi all thanks for all of the comments and feedback. A quick update and a lesson learned. We bonded all of the thru-hulls to ground, hauled the boat and did a thorough investigation ascertaining that they were solid. In the process we discovered that all of the zincs were gone. This is a solid lesson if you are "counting on divers" who clean the bottom to review and replace as has been our rule. The boat was cleaned a day before the trip back up the coast from Marina Del Rey to San Francisco with the request to examine and replace as needed the zincs. Adding to this, once the boat had returned to her home port another diver "cleaned the bottom" (which of course had just been cleaned a week before) and did not mention anything about the status of the zincs. This is not a rash accusation about divers as a whole BUT a solid word to the wise to consider being on site, ordering and having the proper zincs in your possession and asking for completion pics. We will report back after the next couple of months on the status of the thru-hulls but I believe that between the lack of bonding and having no zincs in a very hot Marina (Marina Del Rey) that this is probably a significant part of the problem, if not it in its entirety . To the credit of Beneteau once I sent them an e-mail with the pics, they did volunteer to send new thru-hulls. Had we felt they had been compromised we would have opted for a different solution than the ones that they stock but we didn't get there. Thanks again, your feedback has been awesome and hopefully this string is a help to others. CB
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Old 04-03-2016, 01:06 AM   #78
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CeeBee,

This is great information, thanks for sharing. If the problem persists you might look into one of these corrosion protection systems from ElectroGuard Corrosion and cathodic protection specialists for your boat, yacht or small ship. Prevent fresh water and salt water marine corrosion often referred to as marine electrolysis.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:14 PM   #79
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Update: As reported we thoroughly cleaned and treated the thru-hulls, inspected them at a haul out, tied them to a ground. Our suspicion was that Marina Del Rey was hotter. We were using 220v AC at the slip, that there was some stray currents at the marina etc, etc, etc. However, within 8 weeks of doing the repairs and back in our home port (pic attached) the same thing happened.

To Beneteau's credit, after I sent them pics on Tuesday, within an hour their Sr Service advisor from Annapolis called. We discussed the situation and he is arriving in the Bay Area to be on the boat this Monday to trouble shoot.

Please stand by.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:52 PM   #80
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Update: As reported we thoroughly cleaned and treated the thru-hulls, inspected them at a haul out, tied them to a ground. Our suspicion was that Marina Del Rey was hotter. We were using 220v AC at the slip, that there was some stray currents at the marina etc, etc, etc. However, within 8 weeks of doing the repairs and back in our home port (pic attached) the same thing happened.

To Beneteau's credit, after I sent them pics on Tuesday, within an hour their Sr Service advisor from Annapolis called. We discussed the situation and he is arriving in the Bay Area to be on the boat this Monday to trouble shoot.

Please stand by.
That is great news for you and many others. I hope he'll look objectively and also realize yours isn't an isolated issue. With all the positives of their boats and the way owners love them, it's a shame that they've let these issues remain a negative.
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