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Old 11-08-2015, 12:00 PM   #241
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Yes depth (water pressure) plays a big roll in whether a body will float to the surface. As the body decomposes it generates internal gas which is what floats it. The pressure from the water compresses the gas reducing the volume. Let's say that at the surface, decomposition produces 1 gallon of gas which would be about 8 pounds of lifting buoyancy.

At 33' the pressure from water doubles sea level atmospheric pressure, gas volume is half, lift is reduced to 4 pounds.
At 99' surrounding pressure is 4 times the surface, volume is 1/4, lift is about 2 pounds.
At 231' pressure is 8 times the surface, volume is 1/8, lift is about 1 pound, body isn't ever going to float from gas generated by decomposition.
VENUS is real time data illustrating what you say Ted, about pressure. If you scroll down to Live Data-Strait of Georgia you can see the difference between 350 ,450 and 900 feet. 1 dbar is about 1.5psi.

This is reality: Deep water oxygen/scavengers
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:16 AM   #242
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What a revolting, insensitive thread drift. I hope none of the family members ever read this thread.
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:20 AM   #243
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What a revolting, insensitive thread drift. I hope none of the family members ever read this thread.
Yes, that would be bad.
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:41 AM   #244
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At least the mods can keep rickb in check for daring to suggest some boat related posts are silly, strange priorities on TF.
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:27 AM   #245
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What a revolting, insensitive thread drift. I hope none of the family members ever read this thread.
I suspect family will ask about if the bodies will surface and why haven't they. I suspect they'll be told the science.
I suspect some will pursue more information.

I highly doubt the families are reading Trawler Forum.

I personally don't like or read graphic descriptions but I did want to know what I've learned here about water temperature at that depth.
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:51 AM   #246
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At least the mods can keep rickb in check for daring to suggest some boat related posts are silly, strange priorities on TF.
Amen.
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Old 11-09-2015, 01:03 PM   #247
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What a revolting, insensitive thread drift. I hope none of the family members ever read this thread.
Post #227.... tried to head it off but now that it is out.

It is neither revolting nor insensitive.

It could the fate of any of us that go upon the water.....like the shocker films they show you in drivers ed so you drive safer....it is eality and NOT pictures of the missing.

I have been in a situation with deep water body recovery and requests from the family. Yes, inappropriate...but generic forensics...for what we and all seafarers should know as well as their families....just the facts.....
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Old 11-09-2015, 01:52 PM   #248
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I happen to work in a courthouse. We see horrific trial exhibits all the time. I understand the need to develop an academic, intellectual, or "forensic" perspective on what we see, and I get that those of us who work in such environments have to develop some kind of professional detachment -- but I still think it's a pretty ghoulish thread drift on a recreational boating forum, for a tragedy that occurred a little over four weeks ago for family members. You may be right that it's unlikely family members are reading Trawler Forum, but I'll bet they're Googling like crazy and I for one wouldn't want them to see where this thread has drifted. If they need such information they can ask appropriate authorities, rather than discover that a group of boaters are speculating about whether the bodies of their fathers and brothers are likely to float or sink. (And yes I know, the internet may be an ocean of crude and insensitive stuff, but I also like to think we have some grace and sensitivity here no matter what some of us may have done for a living in a previous or current life, or what you can find on the 'net elsewhere.)
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:04 PM   #249
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So far it's been low key...ghoulish? I don't think any one has gotten within a mile of that one.

Maybe insensitive....but obviously only to some.

Watch the evening news and reread the thread....this was really low key....only one post and you had to try and get to something that would even begin to be a bit harsh.
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:09 PM   #250
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NTSB has said they will temporarily stop all operations related to El Faro due to Tropical Storm Kate. Kate is north of the Central Bahamas with maximum sustained winds at 40 mph.
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Old 11-12-2015, 04:21 PM   #251
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gCaptain reports bridge found.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:21 PM   #252
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gCaptain reports bridge found.
Yes. Unfortunately the recorder was not attached so they're continue to search for it.

NTSB: Investigators Have Located Bridge of Sunken Cargo Ship El Faro - WSJ
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Old 11-12-2015, 11:40 PM   #253
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What a revolting, insensitive thread drift. I hope none of the family members ever read this thread.
Last time I checked pigs dont read.. the article was about pig carcasses. Yes it relates to us humans..but it is no snuff pics for sure. Good grief dont look up the forensic test sites where they bury actual bodies

Is there someone out there that thinks a body left in the sea or in the woods..or in a abandoned wharehouse for that matter doesnt get eaten by the critters?
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:34 PM   #254
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I am hoping that TF members get the idea that no matter what we think of our fine vessels; we all have to be honest and assess not just our vessels condition but OUR condition regarding how we navigate. Not just around hurricanes but in all weather and sea conditions.

The El Faro and HMS Bounty are just two examples of this type of myopic thinking. Taking a vessel of old age out near, into or even around such potential weather is folly. There are many ships around the world that should be razor blades by now. The corporate profit bean counters are not done exacting their toll of profits. Yet. And lives are lost. This is (unfortunately) a learning incident.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:27 PM   #255
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The corporate profit bean counters are not done exacting their toll of profits. Yet. And lives are lost. This is (unfortunately) a learning incident.
While some of the bean counters are problems, the real problem goes higher in all organizations. Sometimes even beyond the CEO to the Board. They decide what a company stands for, what it's culture will be and how decisions relative to safety will be made. If the company lacks the money for repairs or can't afford a delay it was their leadership that put it there. It wasn't the economy or fuel prices or the weather. The moment we start blaming it for something out of our control, we decide to no longer manage. I will make an exception for a tornado with no warning.

Someone elsewhere tried to equate the captain (a well known South Florida contract and delivery captain) running the boat aground and sinking the Sea Ray in NC to El Faro. He missed the entire tragedy. The boat in NC sank, no one was injured. Bounty and El Faro and Costa Concordia and the Korean Ferry and many of the other tragedies we read about daily have loss of lives. I just urge any of you who are in positions to make decisions to always choose safety and lives first. First, second, and third. I know sadly for some it does come down to putting a job on the line. Just remember your family would rather have you home safely and broke than to be suing to collect insurance money. To any who have greater power, Bounty is perhaps the most obvious tragedy as it was non-profit and all about ego and a captain who had openly talked about death at sea fighting a storm. That or Costa Concordia where it was just to provide a little extra show and a long standing practice.

I'd like to think these accidents were learning experiences but, unfortunately, I've found some decision makers, leaders of large companies are so blinded by their egos, they never learn.

For those of you in Texas, are you back to eating Blue Bell Ice Cream? Do you really think the management of the company learned how wrong it is to knowingly expose people to listeria and to poorly maintain your plants? Did they somehow suddenly learn integrity? Or did they learn the consequences when it backfires and you get caught. Do you think if they found it again next year, they would shut the plant down and notify the FDA?
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:41 PM   #256
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I am hoping that TF members get the idea that no matter what we think of our fine vessels; we all have to be honest and assess not just our vessels condition but OUR condition regarding how we navigate. Not just around hurricanes but in all weather and sea conditions.

The El Faro and HMS Bounty are just two examples of this type of myopic thinking. Taking a vessel of old age out near, into or even around such potential weather is folly. There are many ships around the world that should be razor blades by now. The corporate profit bean counters are not done exacting their toll of profits. Yet. And lives are lost. This is (unfortunately) a learning incident.

I wouldn't equate what happen to the professional crew of the El Faro to what the captain did to the amateur crew of the Bounty.
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:17 PM   #257
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Almost. He had a lot more time than your proverbial ref. He had days.

In my biz (aviation) we call it "get-home-itis".
OK Enough of the aviation analogy, they simply are not relevant.
Why?

How fast does your airplane fly? How fast does a Thunderstorm move? Which is faster?

By how many magnitudes, at that!

Now, El Faro at best may or may not have been going the same speed as the Tropical Storm/Hurricane. In fact, the storm could be going more than twice the speed of a freighter.

That makes it much harder to avoid, even if the forecast is correct.

Also, last I saw, it was not clear when the engines stopped working.

A lot of second guessing from people never having been in that situation.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:28 PM   #258
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Age and seaworthyness of a vessel may or may not be a relationship to paint with a broad stroke.

We have no idea what the captain was planning to do enroute about missing the eye of even a CAT 1 let alone a CAT 4 storm. Something definitely related to the estimation of what the vessel could safely endure.

The only thing we know for sure (last I piced together)....is the accident did happen and lack of propulsion may have been a contributing factor. Not much to go on.
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:16 AM   #259
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The search for the VDR has ended and it is interesting to read the frustration on gCaptain.


Sea Star's El Faro - Page 137
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:11 AM   #260
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Crowley tug Warrior with 750' container barge tow

This was taken at the same time as the El Faro went down. Different choices, different routes, different vessels. But it does show a different thought process in scheduling, location and storm awareness. These guys 'never' go weatherbound. It's just a matter of altering course.Click image for larger version

Name:	Tug Warrior Crowley marinetraffic path.jpg
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Apparently another company (Signet) was towing another barge and actually had to let go of the tow wire. It took them two days of chasing the barge to reconnect.
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