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Old 11-04-2015, 11:04 PM   #221
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Opps, try this

http://vid809.photobucket.com/albums...psetb2hn0n.mp4
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:34 AM   #222
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Almost. He had a lot more time than your proverbial ref. He had days.

In my biz (aviation) we call it "get-home-itis".
been both a professional aviator and professional mariner (smaller stuff but still put to sea with the USCG for decades)...

I see similarities in aviation and maritime, but then they are the same decisions driving, rving, camping.......just about everything....

I don't see this as get-home-it is at all.....
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:29 AM   #223
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As previously posted, G captain has lots of professionals discussing this. Improper ballasting seems a contributing factor. Don't beat me up though, go there.
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:49 PM   #224
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Had to be dang violent to rip the superstructure off the hull...
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Old 11-05-2015, 01:45 PM   #225
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Had to be dang violent to rip the superstructure off the hull...
Or a few hundred containers acting like battering rams as she slid stern first for three miles.

I just hope it was quick for those aboard.
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:24 PM   #226
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I just hope it was quick for those aboard.
I do too as imagining how it might have been for them is very painful. I find it a bit surprising that only one body has surfaced and been found to this point.
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:41 PM   #227
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Cold deep water...they may never surface....a sailors resting place...may they rest in peace.

And of course all the other unthinkable reasons no others have been found.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:01 PM   #228
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Cold deep water...they may never surface....a sailors resting place...may they rest in peace.

And of course all the other unthinkable reasons no others have been found.
I would think they would if wearing a PFD of some sort as the one found was. Otherwise, I wouldn't expect them to surface or at least to do so only after an extended period of time.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:08 PM   #229
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Having served with a lot of highly trained seamen whow hAve expressed this concept....the guys on the El Faro might have just taken their jackets off in or out of the water....some people aren't into suffering and mental anguish.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:20 PM   #230
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Having served with a lot of highly trained seamen whow hAve expressed this concept....the guys on the El Faro might have just taken their jackets off in or out of the water....some people aren't into suffering and mental anguish.
Good point. I just can't imagine the horror of being in the water in those conditions. I think most people try to hold even to the smallest hope, but I can see too that once one decided to remove their jacket, others would follow that lead.

Any idea what the temperature of the water would be there at 15,000 ft below the surface?
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:40 PM   #231
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Good point. I just can't imagine the horror of being in the water in those conditions. II think most people try to hold even to the smallest hope, but I can see too that once one decided to remove their jacket, others would follow that lead.

Any idea what the temperature of the water would be there at 15,000 ft below the surface?
Not really true...the will to survive is across the board at the start and tends drop for all because of various factors.

Some will put a gun to their head before thy jump overboard.

I think seawater levels off at 4 degrees C at depth because of pressure....but that is only a guess.

Below what is necessary to produce gas and float from my lwarning.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:58 PM   #232
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Not really true...the will to survive is across the board at the start and tends drop for all because of various factors.

Some will put a gun to their head before thy jump overboard.

I think seawater levels off at 4 degrees C at depth because of pressure....but that is only a guess.

Below what is necessary to produce gas and float from my lwarning.
You're right in that we don't know what level of panic existed or how long they'd known they had a problem. We don't know how long they had to think about it.

Yes, that temperature is basically enough to refrigerate a body. I googled and your guess is very good. I found places that said 0 to 3 C, or 32-38 F, with 3.5% salinity.

I'd only been aware of missing bodies on lakes in the past and there you don't have the same situation so ultimately the bodies surface. At that temperature they're not going to. No telling either where the deep ocean currents may have taken them.

So, I learned something today. I had no idea how cold it got deep.
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Old 11-05-2015, 04:36 PM   #233
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You're right in that we don't know what level of panic existed or how long they'd known they had a problem. We don't know how long they had to think about it.

Yes, that temperature is basically enough to refrigerate a body. I googled and your guess is very good. I found places that said 0 to 3 C, or 32-38 F, with 3.5% salinity.

I'd only been aware of missing bodies on lakes in the past and there you don't have the same situation so ultimately the bodies surface. At that temperature they're not going to. No telling either where the deep ocean currents may have taken them.

So, I learned something today. I had no idea how cold it got deep.
First 3 lines of the Gordon Lightfoot song - Wreck of the Edmund Fitgerald

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead


I have heard but am sure that there are exceptions that Lake Superior is deep and cold enough to have many of it's victims also stay down in the deep cooler.


You would be surprised at how close bodies are recovered from where they went in from beaches, piers and jetties...many of my predictions to families and other authorities surprised them when I would say within a 1/4 mile or less.

Of course places with exceptional currents and rivers are a bit different.
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:16 PM   #234
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It would seem to me the pressure at that depth would be a factor too
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:49 PM   #235
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It would seem to me the pressure at that depth would be a factor too
On what in particular?

Not many closed air sacs in a human...water penterate and equalizes most areas...things like limbs are mostly water and most incompressible..to a point.

I was privy to pictures of human remains taken at nearly but not quite that depth....suprisingly recognizable except what I described before as unthinkable things can happen as time goes on...better left unsaid.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:07 PM   #236
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If she went over quickly, and due to the lack of distress signals sent I'm guessing she did, I bet just about everyone was inside. The conditions on deck were no doubt extremely dangerous. They were probably all on the bridge, or congregated in the galley. Even if they knew something bad could happen at any second, even if they thought they were ready to abandon ship, things can happen very, very quickly.

It's all very sobering to think about, as I sit on an old tugboat.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:52 PM   #237
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If she went over quickly, and due to the lack of distress signals sent I'm guessing she did, I bet just about everyone was inside. The conditions on deck were no doubt extremely dangerous. They were probably all on the bridge, or congregated in the galley. Even if they knew something bad could happen at any second, even if they thought they were ready to abandon ship, things can happen very, very quickly.

It's all very sobering to think about, as I sit on an old tugboat.
I try to stay away from speculating on these things but in this case I tend to go along with you, Dave.

5 years ago, I lost a friend who was a very seasoned guide in the waters off the west coast of Vancouver Island. He and 3 customers were in a 20 foot open aluminum charter boat that failed to return. An extensive search turned up nothing. 3 days later the boat was found capsized, at anchor, with the ignition switched off and all like jackets on board. They were either anchored jigging for halibut or the anchor fell out when the boat flipped.

Whatever happened, was very sudden which is often the case on this coast and the boys were never found which is also very common.
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Old 11-08-2015, 03:18 AM   #238
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I found this interesting and somewhat pertinent. http://cliffmass.blogspot.ca/2015/11...e-centers.html
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:11 AM   #239
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Old 11-08-2015, 08:04 AM   #240
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It would seem to me the pressure at that depth would be a factor too
Yes depth (water pressure) plays a big roll in whether a body will float to the surface. As the body decomposes it generates internal gas which is what floats it. The pressure from the water compresses the gas reducing the volume. Let's say that at the surface, decomposition produces 1 gallon of gas which would be about 8 pounds of lifting buoyancy.

At 33' the pressure from water doubles sea level atmospheric pressure, gas volume is half, lift is reduced to 4 pounds.
At 99' surrounding pressure is 4 times the surface, volume is 1/4, lift is about 2 pounds.
At 231' pressure is 8 times the surface, volume is 1/8, lift is about 1 pound, body isn't ever going to float from gas generated by decomposition.

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