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Old 10-31-2015, 10:39 PM   #201
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Looks like they found her on the fifth pass. 4500meters deep.
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Old 10-31-2015, 10:41 PM   #202
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Quote:

How much time at sea do you have on ships of a commercial nature?

I would have to ask the same question!

Unlimited shipyard periods, unlimited cash to do shipyard repairs and replenishments and unlimited crew appointments is VERY different than the commercial world.

The government (military) expectation is NOT tantamount to the commercial world. The reasons we put to sea during hurricane conditions is totally different than military.


Two of my compatriots were weatherbound in Miami. One was anchored off Tampa. NONE of them felt obliged to get underway into Juaquin. As a matter of fact these three Captains held their ground and then got underway after the El Faro sunk.

Sounds like someone (who had a complement of 5 mechanics aboard) to repair the mechanicals of the ship put more precedent on making a 'schedule' than a safe passage.

The age, the past reports, the cumulative info suggest something else.
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:02 PM   #203
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They have now located what they believe to be the wreckage.

Wreckage of Cargo Ship Believed to be El Faro Located in More Than 15,000 Feet of Water
10/31/2015


​A search team on board the USNS Apache has found the wreckage of a vessel that they believe to be the cargo ship El Faro, which went missing on Oct. 1 during Hurricane Joaquin. The vessel was located at a depth of about 15,000 feet in the vicinity of the last known position.

Sophisticated sonar equipment towed from Apache first detected what are believed to be images of the vessel using Orion, a side-scanning sonar system, at about 1:36 pm ET on October 31 during the fifth of 13 planned search line surveys.

To confirm the finding, specialists on Apache will use CURV 21, a deep ocean remotely operated vehicle, to survey and confirm the identity of the wreckage. This survey could begin as early as Sunday, November 1.

The target identified by Orion is consistent with a 790-foot cargo ship, which from sonar images appears to be in an upright position and in one piece.
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Old 11-01-2015, 06:42 AM   #204
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At the time of departure, Hurricane Joaquin was still a tropical storm, but meteorologists at the National Hurricane Center forecast that it would likely become a hurricane by the morning of October 1, on a southwest trajectory toward the Bahamas.[6] The vessel's charted course took it within 175 nmi (320 km; 200 mi) of the storm, where seas in excess of 10 ft (3.0 m) were likely.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_El_Faro

Still haven't done the timeline, but this is close to what I thought.

And no....not all government ships have unlimited yard periods and budgets. and yes...some of the Icebreakers I sailed on were from WWII. Old and on their last legs. One had a main electric motor burn up on the way...we continues for 3 more months and got within 400 miles of the North Pole on one shaft and returned home. Mission complete.

Operational Risk management is about managing risks to complete a mission or determine there are just to many unmanageable ones to start/continue. Usually is never says don't start, just monitor and manage...which is where this event somehow went astray and without more info......and my experiences in disaster at sea...I really have no opinion on why or why not the El faro sailed, other than how the heck do others?
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:44 AM   #205
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15000' is a lot of water......
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:56 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
The Bolivian flagged cargo ship Minouche was near Haiti when Joaquin came through. It too sank, reportedly due to cargo shifting. All on board were saved.

Does anyone know when and if El Faro called CG for help? Is there a time line between when cargo shifted and mayday sent out?
I did a double take when I read "Bolivian flagged cargo ship" had to check with Google sure enough they offer flag of convenience, and apparently the fleet is growing.
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Old 11-01-2015, 03:53 PM   #207
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Well, they have Lago Titicaca...... guess that counts as waterfront, right?
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:12 AM   #208
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Used to work with Bolivian Navy. Chile took away their coastline in 1904. But, each succeeding Bolivian president since is going to get it back. So the Bolivian Navy stands ready go to sea. I assume their Admiralty offices are as well.

Actually, they field a credible riverine force - good, tough little guys
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Old 11-02-2015, 05:32 PM   #209
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El Faro Located 15,000 Down

U.S. Navy finds wreckage believed to be missing cargo ship El Faro - CNN.com
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:16 PM   #210
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They have updated to confirm that it is the El Faro that they have located, whereas their previous report said they believed it was the ship.
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:45 PM   #211
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Not sure how accurate the CNN graphics are, but if true, he aimed for it and ran straight into it......
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:48 PM   #212
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Not sure how accurate the CNN graphics are, but if true, he aimed for it and ran straight into it......
Unless it and you are going straight at each other.... it takes quite the plotting and navigation to keep a collision course with something that varies in path and speed like a hurricane...and is only based on guestimations when moving slow and intensifying.
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:54 PM   #213
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Well, over the timeframe depicted the hurricane didn't do much at all and the ship kept steaming for it. Now, the hurricane was supposed to get out of the way, but hello......
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:23 PM   #214
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Well, over the timeframe depicted the hurricane didn't do much at all and the ship kept steaming for it. Now, the hurricane was supposed to get out of the way, but hello......
Yes...that is the million dollar question....

At what point do you believe or ignore forecasts.

Already many here are saying believe absolutely and no possibly there is a well you can't believe them too closely....

Can't have it both ways...make a plan, execute the plan and choose backups when things change....unfortunately there's a small timeframe with unknown onboard changes that leave a big whole in any investigation as to what the Captain did or didn't do.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:36 PM   #215
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Again, I don't know how accurate the graphics are, but if true, and he would have steamed East for another 300 or so miles he would have been behind it. They seldom turn back East...... And I suspect the forecast would have supported that. Giving these things a wide berth is prudent. I do the same with Tstorms in the airplane.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:52 PM   #216
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All I can relate this to now is like being a ref in a ball game....big difference than being the guy in the armchair with the luxury of slow mo, instant replay.

And yes the storm was expected to make a more than 90 degree turn and yes it exploded on intensity and yes it is normal for ships of that size to graze storm/hurricane conditions, not avoid them totally.

And yes...lots of unanswered questions and as more bits of the puzzle are laid out....the better the chances of "guessing" what decisions were made onscene....or at least until any recorders are found.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:41 PM   #217
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Only one problem with that scenario. What did other prudent Mariners do in this case? Did any other Mariners head TOwards an intensifying hurricane? Did any other Mariners put the Bahama Bank between them and a possible escape route? And did ANY of those Mariners take with them a shoreside repair crew to make 'underway repairs' to a decrepit ship? Schedule be damned. We are going to make our destination even if it kills us. (My next promotion depends on this).
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:35 PM   #218
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All I can relate this to now is like being a ref in a ball game....big difference than being the guy in the armchair with the luxury of slow mo, instant replay.
Almost. He had a lot more time than your proverbial ref. He had days.

In my biz (aviation) we call it "get-home-itis".
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:38 PM   #219
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#1) There were others that needed rescuing

#2) The underway repairs had nothing to with the plant, both boilers were online and running.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:58 PM   #220
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This comes from the g captain el faro forum thread found here:

Sea Star's El Faro - Page 129

From "Mat"

My movie of possible timeline based on what we have so far (and reading between the lines). Based on speculation that El Faro was trying to head south through the Crooked Island Passage. It seems likely they made it through the Rum Cay cut, but were then incapacitated in some way after turning 45 degrees to starboard. Fill in your own narrative (Incorporates Weather Channel graphics
http://vid809.photobucket.com/albums...psetb2hn0n.mp4
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