Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-04-2016, 11:44 AM   #1
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,034
Economic impact of transient boaters

This quote from another thread got me thinking about why certain municipalities invest in facilities and staff for transient boaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
BC in comparison amazes me with the interest and willingness to make life by the sea for transient boaters and residents more interesting, cleaner and safer. Comox, Powell River, Prince Rupert and Chemainus come me to mind. Alaska the same, many Marina improvements.
This summer I stayed in Powell River twice and Comox once. I was very impressed by both. Maybe because transient boaters are a significant part of the marine economy, but they seemed to go out of their way to make us welcome.

Both of those marinas are owned by the city I believe. It seems as if the cities have decided that they want their Southern neighbors to come and spend our money in their fuel docks, restaurants, chandleries, and grocery stores. Recreational boaters do provide a boost to the economy with both tax revenue and jobs.

FWIW, Kingston Marina on Bainbridge Island is another publicly owned marina that goes out of its way to make transient boaters welcome and serve their needs. Hopefully, the idea that if you provide decent facilities and good service, boaters will come and spend money providing a net gain for your economy.

I was a bit curious about what the effect of transient boaters are on the economy of an area and tried to find some information. I didn't find a lot.

There was a University of Maryland study back in 2005 that found that transient boaters spend $154 million in Maryland for an economic impact of $186 million and could be linked to over 2600 FTE jobs.

In 2013 the Port of Seattle estimated that about 4,800 transient boats used Bell Harbor and Shilshole Marinas in 2013. They estimate that those boats accounted for almost $964,000 in local spending beyond what was spent on transient moorage fees charged by the Port. That spending included food/lodging, retail, entertainment, and local transportation.

The Port of Olympia's Swantown marina had about 4000 visitor nights in 2014. If visitors in Olympia only spent a 1/4 of what they might spend in the Port of Seattle, that still amounts to $200,000 a year of non-moorage spending from transient boaters.

Lots of information about the impact of recreational boaters on the local economy. Not as much on the effect of transient boaters. It seems to me that it is clear that recreational boating is an important income mix for ports and waterfront communities. If you already have the infrastructure in place for recreational boating, the marginal expense to expand and improve the facilities and services for transient boaters is relatively small. Transients don't spend as much money as resident boats on repair facilities, but they spend higher amounts on entertainment such as food/drink.

While not quite an "if you build it they will come" scenario, I think that some ports and cities in the PNW (and maybe southern BC Coast) are beginning to look at ways to tap into the transient boat market in a bigger way.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 11:56 AM   #2
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,781
I know the local marinas have to buy more toilet paper, pay higher water bills and take out the trash more often.... When transient sailboaters show up after closing and leave before opening, skipping out on dock fee!!! Just kidding a little bit kinda sorta maybe.

I know when I travel, I spend an average of $100 a day for food fuel dockage whatever. At least my CC bill is about $3k for a month of travel. That is me being cheap. Big boats docking and dining every night might be $500/day. Average probably in the middle somewhere. Figure the number of boat on the move and multiply by $250/day.

But ignore the sailboats!!!
__________________

Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 12:13 PM   #3
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
I know the local marinas have to buy more toilet paper, pay higher water bills and take out the trash more often.... When transient sailboaters show up after closing and leave before opening, skipping out on dock fee!!! Just kidding a little bit kinda sorta maybe.

I know when I travel, I spend an average of $100 a day for food fuel dockage whatever. At least my CC bill is about $3k for a month of travel. That is me being cheap. Big boats docking and dining every night might be $500/day. Average probably in the middle somewhere. Figure the number of boat on the move and multiply by $250/day.

But ignore the sailboats!!!

The port of Seattle in their study found that transient sailboats spent about $180 per night in the local economy, transient power boats spent about $220 per night. The difference if I recall was in entertainment spending. If I recall that was 2013.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 12:25 PM   #4
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,411
Each of us is different in our spending and each town is different. Transient boaters do support the local economy somewhat. Transients on busses and cars do the same.


As for public marinas, we have free docks with no services like in Elizabeth City, NC and we have marinas with fuel, nice bath houses and pools like Somers Cove in Crisfield, MD. All of these bring business to their towns.


When we say at marinas, we pay for the dockage and we almost always eat at least one meal in a local restaurant, sometimes more. We shop for groceries and supplies and often buy souvenirs.


We could travel more cheaply, but the trip is our goal, not the destination.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 12:46 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: Melbourne, FL
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 884
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
This quote from another thread got me thinking about why certain municipalities invest in facilities and staff for transient boaters.



This summer I stayed in Powell River twice and Comox once. I was very impressed by both. Maybe because transient boaters are a significant part of the marine economy, but they seemed to go out of their way to make us welcome.

Both of those marinas are owned by the city I believe. It seems as if the cities have decided that they want their Southern neighbors to come and spend our money in their fuel docks, restaurants, chandleries, and grocery stores. Recreational boaters do provide a boost to the economy with both tax revenue and jobs.

FWIW, Kingston Marina on Bainbridge Island is another publicly owned marina that goes out of its way to make transient boaters welcome and serve their needs. Hopefully, the idea that if you provide decent facilities and good service, boaters will come and spend money providing a net gain for your economy.

I was a bit curious about what the effect of transient boaters are on the economy of an area and tried to find some information. I didn't find a lot.

There was a University of Maryland study back in 2005 that found that transient boaters spend $154 million in Maryland for an economic impact of $186 million and could be linked to over 2600 FTE jobs.

In 2013 the Port of Seattle estimated that about 4,800 transient boats used Bell Harbor and Shilshole Marinas in 2013. They estimate that those boats accounted for almost $964,000 in local spending beyond what was spent on transient moorage fees charged by the Port. That spending included food/lodging, retail, entertainment, and local transportation.

The Port of Olympia's Swantown marina had about 4000 visitor nights in 2014. If visitors in Olympia only spent a 1/4 of what they might spend in the Port of Seattle, that still amounts to $200,000 a year of non-moorage spending from transient boaters.

Lots of information about the impact of recreational boaters on the local economy. Not as much on the effect of transient boaters. It seems to me that it is clear that recreational boating is an important income mix for ports and waterfront communities. If you already have the infrastructure in place for recreational boating, the marginal expense to expand and improve the facilities and services for transient boaters is relatively small. Transients don't spend as much money as resident boats on repair facilities, but they spend higher amounts on entertainment such as food/drink.

While not quite an "if you build it they will come" scenario, I think that some ports and cities in the PNW (and maybe southern BC Coast) are beginning to look at ways to tap into the transient boat market in a bigger way.
How much of that FTE income was OC Diver's refit?
stubones99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 12:57 PM   #6
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,765
There is the another side to that story. Municipal marinas can also get run at a loss. I'm in a very nice marina that is state subsidized. The city has been shrinking for years as there is very little industry left. Recreational boating has been on a steady decline for the last 15 years here. I would guess slip occupancy is around 30%. While some transient money flows into the city, I'm guessing it pales in comparison to the operating loss and capital expenditures. The conservative side of me hates to see the state loose money like this (this isn't the only one in this state). As a boater, I really like my 50' slip on a very nice floating dock for only $2,700 per year. I guess if you're a taxpayer and boater it's easy to see this as some of your state tax revenue being spent locally. Just think it's important to understand that transient revenue generated by municipal marinas can have a significant cost attached.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 01:02 PM   #7
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
There is the another side to that story. Municipal marinas can also get run at a loss. I'm in a very nice marina that is state subsidized. The city has been shrinking for years as there is very little industry left. Recreational boating has been on a steady decline for the last 15 years here. I would guess slip occupancy is around 30%. While some transient money flows into the city, I'm guessing it pales in comparison to the operating loss and capital expenditures. The conservative side of me hates to see the state loose money like this (this isn't the only one in this state). As a boater, I really like my 50' slip on a very nice floating dock for only $2,700 per year. I guess if you're a taxpayer and boater it's easy to see this as some of your state tax revenue being spent locally. Just think it's important to understand that transient revenue generated by municipal marinas can have a significant cost attached.

Ted
It's not at all unusual for a state to take money from one part of the state and transfer it to another part of the state. In your case, money from the DC suburbs and the Baltimore area is providing services and employment to a poorer part of the state.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 01:10 PM   #8
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubones99 View Post
How much of that FTE income was OC Diver's refit?
Let's just say I'm appreciated around the boatyard. Have no problem spending my money with good hard working people.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 01:23 PM   #9
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,598
You first have to have an active traffic flow of cruisers passing through. You have to be a real destination (say Florida) or between two real destinations (Florida and New England). Something that is virtually nonexistent in places like Berkeley, Emeryville, San Leandro et al. So not all municipalities have the same economic opportunity trying to cater to a very small potential customer base. Of course in many places legacy private marinas pick up the role, depending on the political, business and land use history of a given town.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 01:24 PM   #10
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
It's not at all unusual for a state to take money from one part of the state and transfer it to another part of the state. In your case, money from the DC suburbs and the Baltimore area is providing services and employment to a poorer part of the state.
I understand that. Think it's a poor fiscal model to long term state subsidize non essential services. That's part of why I'm no longer a Maryland resident.

BTW, the money doesn't flow out of Baltimore, never will.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 01:36 PM   #11
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,610
The Powell River Harbour is one of the few municipal entities that makes a tidy net profit year after year. The other notable one is the campground, which is also well run and maintained.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 02:01 PM   #12
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
I understand that. Think it's a poor fiscal model to long term state subsidize non essential services. That's part of why I'm no longer a Maryland resident......
You must not be fond of the federal government either. They fund some pretty "non essential" services.

Do we let our historic small towns just die and fade away? Give up on them? Should the state stop paving the streets? Stop funding the police and fire departments? The schools?

As long as I am paying for free housing, food and cell phones for people too lazy to support themselves, I think it's fine for the government to subsidize marinas if that's truly what they are doing.

One could easily make the argument that the government should stop maintaining the Intracoastal Waterway because it's not returning any revenue. I don't think most of us on the east coast of the USA would be very happy with that.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 02:47 PM   #13
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
You must not be fond of the federal government either. They fund some pretty "non essential" services.

Do we let our historic small towns just die and fade away? Give up on them? Should the state stop paving the streets? Stop funding the police and fire departments? The schools?

As long as I am paying for free housing, food and cell phones for people too lazy to support themselves, I think it's fine for the government to subsidize marinas if that's truly what they are doing.

One could easily make the argument that the government should stop maintaining the Intracoastal Waterway because it's not returning any revenue. I don't think most of us on the east coast of the USA would be very happy with that.
Paving streets is funded by gasoline tax. If they would stop diverting the money elsewhere, the roads would be in much better shape. 90% of our secondary road repaving budget that we pay at the pump has been diverted since 2009 to appease the rabble of Baltimore.

Police, fire departments, and schools are all essential services.

As for the ICW, I think all vessel registrations should include a fee (sliding scale based on value) to cover waterway improvements and derelict vessel removal. Require all foreign vessels to pay the fee as an annual usage permit. This also applies to commercial foreign and domestic shipping and passenger vessels. People and commercial interests who buy fuel for their vehicles theoretically pay most of the cost in fuel taxes to the maintain roads. See no reason why the waterways should be any different. Now if we can just stop the politicians from diverting the money.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 03:42 PM   #14
Guru
 
TDunn's Avatar
 
City: Maine Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nunes Brothers Raised Deck Cruiser
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 662
Tourism pretty much drives our local economy. The bulk of that tourism is via car, but we do get our share of marine visitors. There are four towns here on Mount Desert Island that have very different approaches to marine tourists.

I live in the village of Bass Harbor, which is in the town of Tremont. Our town does essentially nothing to attract transient boaters. We have a nice harbor, but there are zero transient boater facilities - no moorings, no marina with transient space, no publicly owned dock space. There is a small private marina (about 15 slips), but it hasn't had a vacancy in the 17 years I have been here and there are no transient spaces there. There are also almost no shore side tourist facilities (two restaurants with no water access), no stores or other shops, etc. There are no boat repair facilities on the water. Consequently virtually all transient boaters pass us by.

The town of Southwest Harbor is five miles away. The town is full of B&Bs, has about 10-12 restaurants (all but two are seasonal) a nice hotel and a couple of motels. On the water side there is a decent sized private marina (~100 slips) that has transient space, a boat yard that rents moorings and the town maintains 6 rental moorings. There is a major boatyard on the water that can do any repair needed as well as a diesel engine repair service on the water. The town also maintains three public docks with dinghy docks. There are also two chandelrys. On any given night the harbor can accommodate 60-70 transients. Compared to Bass Harbor, Southwest Harbor is a transient boater mecca.

Bar Harbor is located at the NE edge of Mount Desert Island. The town has two million plus tourist visits per year (most from July through September). There are dozens of restaurants, several major hotels, lots of motels and at least 40-50 B&Bs. On the water side there is a small private marina (~10-15 slips) and the town maintains 5-6 rental moorings. with good access to the town dock which has room for 4-6 boats to tie up. However, the town doesn't get a lot of transient private boats. I think the reasons are two-fold. First, the town is absolutely packed with tourists that arrived by car. Second, during the July-mid-October period there are over 100 cruise ship visits. The small cruise ships tie up for the night at the town dock (where they run generators all night. The large cruise ships anchor in the harbor and run their generating plants continuously. So the harbor is NOISY at night. Also, on most days the cruise ships deposit anywhere from a couple of hundred to 6,000 tourists into the town, which makes it a total zoo.

The town of Mount Desert has three harbors (Somes Harbor, Seal Harbor and Northeast Harbor). Somes and Seal Harbors have no tourist facilities at all although there is room for 5-6 boats to anchor in the two harbors. Northeast Harbor, on the other hand, is devoted to transient boaters. There is a small municipal marina (30-40 slips) with a few transient slips available on a reservation basis. There are also about 60-70 transient moorings available on a first come first served basis. There is adequate dinghy space at the town marina. On shore there are new town owned rest rooms with showers and laundry facilities. The town has a small chandelry, a number of restaurants and a small grocery store. There is also good access to Acadia National Park via the free bus system as well as two very nice formal gardens that are free. One garden even maintains a dock for visitors coming by boat. Everything is in easy walking distance from the harbor.

Marine tourism on the island tends to be in Northeast Harbor, Southwest Harbor and Bar Harbor in order of volume. Bass Harbor gets none. It is all about attitude and facilities.
TDunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 04:49 PM   #15
Guru


 
City: Full-time onboard
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDunn View Post
Marine tourism on the island tends to be in Northeast Harbor, Southwest Harbor and Bar Harbor in order of volume. Bass Harbor gets none. It is all about attitude and facilities.
Does the free bus also go to Bass Harbor? Because that's why so many boaters go to Northeast Harbor - it makes it much easier to see the park.

We advise quite a few municipalities about getting significantly more boaters to come to their harbors. It's not a simple thing and the local business benefits aren't usually very large until the number of boats coming in reach into the hundreds. Not too many communities have the capabilities to attract and hold that many boats.
Jeffrey S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 04:55 PM   #16
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,411
Hundreds, perhaps thousands of cruising boats travel the AICW each year and the same goes for the Chesapeake Bay.


Some are hell bent on getting somewhere as fast as possible, but many stop and visit towns and cities along the way. Some towns and cities go out of their way to attract these boaters and some do not.


The money will be spent somewhere so why not get it spent in your town?
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:04 PM   #17
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Hundreds, perhaps thousands of cruising boats travel the AICW each year and the same goes for the Chesapeake Bay.


Some are hell bent on getting somewhere as fast as possible, but many stop and visit towns and cities along the way. Some towns and cities go out of their way to attract these boaters and some do not.


The money will be spent somewhere so why not get it spent in your town?
Certainly agree. Traveled up the Pocomoke River in August. Snow Hill and Pocomoke City, the two cities on the river, both have free bulkheads with free electric and water. They both see some small number of boats each week. The difference is their dockage costs the cities a few dollars in electric and water.

The problem is when revenue is down nobody wants to cut discretionary spending (which is what this is). Instead we hear if you want your roads fixed, we have to raise taxes. When the economy warms up we have extra money (from the raised taxes) to spend on new discretionary programs, and the cycle starts again.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:27 PM   #18
Guru
 
TDunn's Avatar
 
City: Maine Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nunes Brothers Raised Deck Cruiser
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey S View Post
Does the free bus also go to Bass Harbor? Because that's why so many boaters go to Northeast Harbor - it makes it much easier to see the park.
Yes the free bus does go to Bass Harbor, but the frequency is much less than to other places and it is the end of the line, so it is quite a long ride to get anywhere.

Actually, the townof Bass Harbor has made decisions not to do anything to attract transient boaters.
TDunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:47 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,411
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Certainly agree. Traveled up the Pocomoke River in August. Snow Hill and Pocomoke City, the two cities on the river, both have free bulkheads with free electric and water. They both see some small number of boats each week. The difference is their dockage costs the cities a few dollars in electric and water.

The problem is when revenue is down nobody wants to cut discretionary spending (which is what this is). Instead we hear if you want your roads fixed, we have to raise taxes. When the economy warms up we have extra money (from the raised taxes) to spend on new discretionary programs, and the cycle starts again.

Ted
We stopped in Pocomoke City for one night and then headed back to continue our cruise. Some of the folks along the dock suggested Snow Hill but we didn't go. We didn't spend a lot of money because there is not much of a business district left. We did eat at the restaurant though so someone got some money.
WesK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2016, 06:53 PM   #20
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
There is the another side to that story. Municipal marinas can also get run at a loss. I'm in a very nice marina that is state subsidized. The city has been shrinking for years as there is very little industry left. Recreational boating has been on a steady decline for the last 15 years here. I would guess slip occupancy is around 30%. While some transient money flows into the city, I'm guessing it pales in comparison to the operating loss and capital expenditures. The conservative side of me hates to see the state loose money like this (this isn't the only one in this state). As a boater, I really like my 50' slip on a very nice floating dock for only $2,700 per year. I guess if you're a taxpayer and boater it's easy to see this as some of your state tax revenue being spent locally. Just think it's important to understand that transient revenue generated by municipal marinas can have a significant cost attached.



Ted

That same slip in Puget Sound would run about $5,400/yr in a reasonably popular area. More in some, less in others. I would love it if my moorage fees were cut in half.
__________________

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012