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Chrisjs

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Oct 12, 2007
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When you take an unstable vessel onto the water in a gale and passengers are not required to wear PFDs is it any surprise that disasters happen?
Duck boats were a simple/cheap solution to a war time need. They were unstable then and are still unstable. They did their job. Time to retire them to the museum.
 
Or just dont take them out in those conditions.

They take passengers for rides in WWI aircraft......
 
If the occasional air passenger takes that risk -- up to them as individuals.

Like bungy jumping!

How many passengers on the duck boat thought for one minute that they were at risk.
And, no PFDs!!!
 
What commercial vessel have you been on where you were wearing one?

Then again, PFDs should have been broken out when the skipper knew things were going south....however, based on the mindless plunging ahead, it appears thinking had stopped.

Though I dont know what other options there were.....
 
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Awful. There was a really big paddle wheeler type boat nearby to hide behind in the videos...
 
These "boats" may be mill pond safe but not fit for flowing rivers or any wave conditions.
 
...however, based on the mindless plunging ahead, it appears thinking had stopped...

I wasn't there, but looking at the video I thought maybe the captain was trying to keep the bow pointed into the weather. Maybe that's all he/she could do.

I have no clue how fast it came up, or if there was any prior warning about how bad it might get. Without additional information, I am not going to assume anything.
 
I wasn't there, but looking at the video I thought maybe the captain was trying to keep the bow pointed into the weather. Maybe that's all he/she could do.

I have no clue how fast it came up, or if there was any prior warning about how bad it might get. Without additional information, I am not going to assume anything.

How about quoting the following sentence I posted that you left off......:rolleyes:


"Though I dont know what other options there were....."


I too dont like to assume things in accident... but in my experience, continuing an operation that is going down hill fast..... isnt usually the best solution for operators who know bad things happen and have plans B though D or beyond.
 
And how do you know that?

Designed for amphibious landings, and some were used by the USCG for beach launches invilving rescues..... hard to say what the real limitations are....

Here is what Wikipedia thinks.....

"The DUKW was designed by Rod Stephens, Jr. of*Sparkman & Stephens, Inc. yacht designers,*Dennis Puleston, a British deep-water sailor resident in the U.S., and Frank W. Speir, a*Reserve Officers' Training Corps*Lieutenant from the*Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[5]*Developed by the*National Defense Research Committee*and the*Office of Scientific Research and Development*to solve the problem of resupply to units which had just performed an amphibious landing, it was initially rejected by the armed services. When a*United States Coast Guard*patrol craft ran aground on a sand bar near*Provincetown, Massachusetts, an experimental DUKW happened to be in the area for a demonstration. Winds up to 60 knots (110*km/h), rain, and heavy surf prevented conventional craft from rescuing the seven stranded Coast Guardsmen, but the DUKW had no trouble,[6]*and military opposition to the DUKW melted. The DUKW later proved its seaworthiness by crossing the*English Channel."
 
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Well, it would be interesting to know to what extent the original design has been changed to numerous seated civilians. Unable to find details of original design but my guess would be no marines were seated going ashore and the CoG of the vessel was probably quite a bit lower. As for stability today, just look at the shape - high out of the water with basically a flat bottom and wheels for a keel!!!
 
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Cant go by looks of a vessel, its all about weights and where...

My guess is that vehicles designed for combat loading situations couldnt be too picky about stability....but without numbers of todays boats, guessing their stability is just a guess.

They managed the conditions pretty well till the one looked like it was pretty full of water.....but yes...I am just guessing.

The one riding higher did turn somewhat beam to the seas and survived.

Flat bottoms arent inheritantly unstable....wheels, axles and gear down low may be raising or lowering the CG..... I have no idea......
 
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About 20 years ago a Baltimore Inner Harbor pontoon boat water taxi flipped during a thunderstorm. No one banned pontoon boats but they did change their procedures.
Lack of anticipation of what could go wrong.
 
Certainly a tragic event and one that we can always look back on and say it "could have, should have been avoided." I don't think any of us know enough of the specifics to say how if should have. The thing is, there wasn't likely just one mistake, but multiple ones that compounded themselves. Should they avoid going out anytime there's a severe thunderstorm warning? Well, there are now ball parks and stadiums that will delay in those circumstances because of fan exposure to lightning. I don't know what size crew aboard, but one of my first questions would be had they been through training and practice in quickly deploying life jackets and abandoning ship and I doubt they had. Or at what point of weather conditions do you require them to be worn.

I think inherently we know two things. First, tour boats on Table Rock Lake shouldn't sink. If they do, they're out in conditions they shouldn't be and/or they didn't have a plan to bail out and get to shore or shallow water quickly. Second, in warm weather on Table Rock Lake, no one should drown or die otherwise as a result of a sinking of a boat. Hopefully steps will be taken to keep either of those events from happening again.

I've seen tour boats on other lakes and in coastal areas that worried me. Lack of staffing to handle emergencies. Weak captains. I've known some captains of such boats I wouldn't hire as a captain of a 40' trawler, much less put hundreds of lives each day in their hands, but it doesn't pay what experienced captains would require.

People who get on tour boats, and I've done it, get on with a lot of naivety, never thinking of the risks. We don't think of where the life jackets are and how we'd get one if needed. Now when taking a ride on Table Rock Lake or elsewhere, we'll be more aware, but for how long. Will the steps be taken to make us safer? Are tour boats elsewhere just thinking "sure glad it didn't happen here" or are they addressing "how to keep it from happening here."

I came up with a land comparison of risk. There is risk to any vehicle on the road and any bus. However, time and again we find groups that have chartered based strictly on price and gotten the worst buses and often drivers who shouldn't have been on the road. They never thought of the risk, but we all became more aware after the accident.

We've become aware of amusement ride risks with certain operators only after the fact.

I have no idea the regulations on the duck boats, on the boats themselves or the training of captains and crews. However, the typical battle is "if you make me do that it will put me out of business". Perhaps it needs to be "if we don't make you do that, lives may be lost." Could regulations have prevented this? Yes, if they had included not going out with severe thunderstorm warnings and training and staffing to prevent a situation like this from becoming fatal. Might they be "too expensive" for the operators to continue? I don't know, but if operators can't operate safely then they shouldn't be operating.

Thing is that we as consumers don't know and often don't think. I know had I been vacationing there, I could have seen myself taking a duck boat ride before, but now definitely would never do so. The conditions seen are not some rogue wave or condition as that's a part of the country with those conditions periodically as Lake of the Ozarks encounters. The point is that this wasn't some horrible bad luck, this was a failure to take the steps to protect. Although this wasn't foreseen, it was a foreseeable event and no steps taken to prevent it.
 
The ducks had their side curtains down and fastened. No easy way to escape with a pfd on.
 
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Such a terrible tragedy.
I am one of those persons that actually pay attention to the stewards on planes and note the exits in movie theaters. I was on a tour boat (The Summer Wind) on Lake Chautauqua in 2005 for a fall foliage cruise. I was really surprised that the Captain spoke of everything except any emergency procedures or where the life jackets were. But just a little look around and I found them. I told DH “what’s with no safety procedure”? I didn’t think anything of it until two days later when this happened on a similar lake https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/03/nyregion/21-die-in-sinking-of-tourist-boat-in-adirondacks.html
It’s one of my many quirks to check exits and safety gear, procedures. It’s easy to do and I don’t dwell on it, but the seconds it saves if you need the info can mean a lot.
On a lighter note, when we left the movie the Titanic, first thing I said is “why didn’t anybody grease up and lash the deck chairs together!”:blush:
 
There were two crew on board....a captain and a driver.

I thought it was a coast guard regulation that you had to tive a little speach before you go out...."life jackets are there.....the head is there.....no smoking, littering or jumping off the boat, etc..." I used to work on snorkel and dive boats and we gave that lecture...no one ever listened...but we gave it every time.

I would guess it would be a slow sinking...the bow goes down and just doesn't come up...I am really surprised that half the people died. The side curtains were definitely a problem. ( one of the reasons I always carry a knife !! ). I wonder if they have VHF's and if a mayday call was made ?

Its interesting that one boat made it and one didn't. Pure speculation here....but in the video it looks like the bow is higher at the beginning than the later on....my guess is that scuppers were blocked or pumps weren't operational and it was taking on water for a while. If I was ankle deep in water I think I'd have found a life jacket and started cutting the curtains open.
 
I always check where the emergency equipment is located when on a boat whether it is a commercial boat or a private boat. When we take anybody out on our boat we give a briefing on the boat. I would never go on a duck boat. If I remember correctly this isn’t the first time there has been a incident like this.
 
The surplus ones are getting harder to find and maintain. I think you’ll see the industry switching to new bus/boats built for the industry.
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I read that the weather warning went out about 45 minutes before the storm hit. I don’t know if the operators heard it or not. I can’t imagine they’d go out if they had heard it.
 
I would never go on a duck boat. If I remember correctly this isn’t the first time there has been a incident like this.

Certainly not. They killed four passengers in Seattle onthe road!

I not only wouldn't get in one of the ungainly monstrosities, I hate driving near one. I don't think it would be any great loss if this event put them out of business.

The storm system was forecast and tracked for several hours with NWS alerts for the area. One wonders what weather briefing and risk assessment tools are available to the crews.
 
All these duck boats are subject to USCG Inspection and certification just like any other passenger vessel, no? Or are they exempt if they are only on inland lakes? And wouldn't the captain have to be licensed, and probably the grew too? I don't mean to suggest that either of these things is the cause of the accident, or that it would have prevented it. I'm just curious if there is some exemption these boats enjoy that other passenger vessels don't.
 
While subject to inspection, some things must be subject to exemption.....with exemptions, usually restrictions follow.

And as far as licensing goes, some is required as passengers are involved, not sure if a full masters is required or water taxi level would be OKed.

Here's an article with more about duck boats than anyone ever wanted to know... One thing tho, it seems most duck boats are not even true WWII replicas but built in appearance only and the rest to modern specs.

https://billypenn.com/2015/06/01/du...and-the-water-and-who-makes-sure-theyre-safe/
 
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Open boats with little freeboard don't do well in unstable waters.
 
These vehicles are not inherently unsafe. "Ride the Ducks" is just one company of many...and they take 1.2 million passengers per year.

Most of the accidents have been human error.

The Branson operation has been in operation for 40+ years and never had anything like this happen before.

PSNeeld: thanks for that link....lots of info there.
 
This is most similar to a sinking in Hot Springs in 1999 in which 13 our of 20 passengers died. The NTSB issued recommendations at that time including removing the canopies which kept passengers from escaping and adding backup bouyancy so they could stay awake if they got flooded as they sink very rapidly. I read about one that sunk quickly at a dock. The NTSB chairman in 1999 believes they should be banned. However, NTSB only regulates their road usage. The USCG does require a certificate of inspection and authorizes a certain route but has little involvement beyond that. Over the years more of their issues have been on land than in the water it seems.

One of the two survivors from the family that lost 9 said that the captain told them not to worry about putting on life jackets as they wouldn't need them.

The boat crew was aware of the approaching storm. In fact, they were told to do the water portion of the tour first to try to complete it before the storm.

It was interesting to read what operators in Portland, in Florida, in Chattanooga had to say after. They all talked about the precautions they take to make sure nothing like this happens including not going out if in bad conditions, such as winds over 20 knots or lightning seen in the distance or thunder heard. In some ways they threw the Missouri operators under the bus, whether intentional or inadvertently.

Captains are required to be USCG licensed and have CDL licenses. One change one operation had made in recent years after road accidents was to add a second crew member to do the tour announcing so the captain didn't have to. I don't know the staffing of this tour company.
 
... If I was ankle deep in water I think I'd have found a life jacket and started cutting the curtains open.

But then you are a man of action.
It's amazing how passive people become in any kind of "mechanical" crisis.

What surprised me was how he just pounded thru the waves. It seems he only knew "full speed ahead" and did't think to do anything else.:banghead:
 
Not being there, I can't fault the boat. I can't fault the skipper. I do find fault with the moron who passed the law exempting the vessel from having PFD's.
 
Not being there, I can't fault the boat. I can't fault the skipper. I do find fault with the moron who passed the law exempting the vessel from having PFD's.

Who said they were exempt from having PFD's?
 

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