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Old 08-10-2014, 07:34 PM   #141
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................ As to the charts, psneeld so opposes as science. They are estimates arrived at. Are they precise? Not for all. But limits were defined in most areas. I've seen people unfit to drive or even talk after one drink and others hold much more better. But I have seen tests and demonstrations with all levels of alcohol consumers. And in every one of those tests a change in reflexes came quite quickly. When did it make them unsafe as drivers might be argued, but that it impacted them in some way could not be. ........
Since I was a teenager, I have been first a full time musician and later a part time musician. Not the kind that plays in the symphony, the kind that plays in bars, clubs, dances and parties. I have seen a lot of people drink and have seen the effect it has on them. Up to a few years ago, I also drank.

One of the things I learned about alcohol is that the effect is pretty much the same for everyone but the more experienced drinkers have learned to hide the symptoms of their intoxication. In other words, if Bob and Joe weigh about the same and have the same amount to drink, they both are just as impaired but Bob might be staggering while Joe (the more experienced drinker) doesn't look drunk to most people.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:43 PM   #142
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Least we forget, it was not until the 1970's that the Royal Navy abandoned the 1/2 pint of rum REQUIRED to be provided around noon each day to the crew. They maintained one of the dominant navys in the world. I don't recall if their Xorcet disaster in the Falklands was before or after they cut the rum out to the crew.
At any rate, while I do not drink while operating the boat I don't let the crew exceed their 1/2 pint.
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Old 08-10-2014, 10:06 PM   #143
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'"A number of factors determine the effect alcohol has on individuals - why different people consuming the same amount react differently or why the same person can have different reactions on different occasions"

Alcohol's Effects - McKinley Health Center - University of Illinois

Alcohol Effects

When people drink alcohol, it can affect them differently based on things like their weight, sex, build and their metabolism.

Why Alcohol Can Affect People Differently - The Canyon Treatment Center


It’s important to note that alcohol affects people differently. How exactly is this possible? Some people respond to the effects of alcohol quickly depending upon the following:

http://signsofalcoholism.org/why-doe...e-differently/
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Old 08-10-2014, 10:11 PM   #144
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Interesting data here: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...atingStats.pdf

Where instruction was known, twenty (20) percent of deaths occurred on boats where the operator had received boating safety instruction. Only thirteen (13) percent of deaths occurred on vessels where the operator had received boating safety instruction from a course provider offering a course meeting the U.S. Coast Guard recognized national standards.

Where data was known, the most common types of vessels involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (46%), personal watercraft (18%), and cabin motorboats (17%).


Y'all are safer than average, both in training and the type of vessel you operate.


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Old 08-10-2014, 10:43 PM   #145
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[QUOTE=ulysses;256483] I don't recall if their Xorcet disaster in the Falklands was before or after they cut the rum out to the crew.


Best to clear this one up. As has been noted, the Royal Navy discontinued the rum ration in 1970....

"The daily tot was served until July 31, 1970, a day that came to be known as Black Tot Day. Ships bemoaned the dark day in many different ways; some held elaborate ceremonies, and others threw their final ration overboard. The HMS Dolphin paid respects to the totís demise by having ďa gun carriage bearing a coffin that was flanked by two drummers and led by a piper playing a lament,Ē

The Falklands War took place in early 1982, and as to what happened to HMS Sheffied..


"an Exocet hit Sheffield amidships, approximately 8 feet above the waterline on deck 2, tearing a gash in the hull.[6] The other missile splashed into the sea half a mile off her port beam.[7]

The Exocet missile which hit Sheffield did not detonate, but the missile severed the high-pressure fire main on board. The resultant fire caused by burning propellant ignited diesel oil from the ready-use tanks in the engine room, and other inflammable materials used in the ship's construction."
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:27 PM   #146
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...and burned for six days. I would hope that the survivors were provided a tot after being rescued, at least for tradition sake.
I am not sure if MADS (Mothers Against Drunk Sailors) had anything to do with the banning of the daily tot as opposed to DAM (Mothers Against Dyslexia)
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:21 AM   #147
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Ulysses,

Are you trying to make light of the HMS Sheffield sinking?

If so, it's obvious you've never served.
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Old 08-11-2014, 02:42 AM   #148
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I believe I prefer individuals who drink while boating to the drinking/drunken owner jerks who populate the marinas and docks. As a live aboard, one gets a very interesting perspective and insight into the boating community at large....largely alcoholics it seems. As a matter of fact, as I started typing this a well known drunk who frequents the marina on his boat stopped directly in front of another boat that pulled in next to us. The boat has a pennant that says "Happy Hour"....one of the universal signals amongst the serious drinking crowd. What this means for us is that the drunk and his wife will invite himself aboard the transient and they will disturb our peace for the rest of the evening. Since it's a sundeck boat, they will likely gather there as opposed to setting up the more typical drunk camp on the dock. This same sub-culture is very evident in the looper community. Anyway, I have to wonder how long it takes to metabolize a snoot full as many of these folks take off bright and early after a night of imbibing. Doubt they get eight hours between bottle and throttle.
So far I have no issue with what you described.

They are not driving. They are sitting at the dock perfectly safe.

Docks are shared places to enjoy. As long as they are not getting out of hand or blasting music at all hours of the night I have no issue with sitting on a tied up boat having as many cocktails as they want.

Actually I see myself as part of the sub culture you describe. I am on my boat right now. We had a great day on the water fishing and arrived back at the harbor in time for happy hour.

Had some friends over and had a couple beers. Great times all around.
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Old 08-11-2014, 07:09 AM   #149
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I have served and I was certainly not making light of their service or their Navy's remarkable history. I am pointing out that there has been a history and tradition of alcohol involved at sea, some good some bad. You may also look at the Exxon Valdiz as an example of someone (this time a ship's officer) drinking when he should not. The point being alcohol for crew and alcohol in the wheel house are two very different things.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:04 AM   #150
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And it IS my business, and that of everyone else out on the water who may be affected. If someone wants to sit at home and get fizzled, they're not attempting to pilot a 27,000 vessel into a dock or a gazzillion to tanker up onto a reef. I'm already getting short of facilities and alcohol sure doesn't add to them.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:19 AM   #151
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As long as they are not getting out of hand .
That's the point though. The one's he's describing are those who are getting out of hand. They are the ones loud, staggering around the docks, yelling, turning music up, and in general being disruptive to everyone else. He's not referring to those who are just drinking on their docked boat and keeping their drunkenness to themselves. It's as if at home. You keep it in the confines of your home or boat, no issue. You disturb the neighbors then there is a problem.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:55 AM   #152
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Latter 1960's I was a fighter in NY. Early 1970's I owned a very raucous bar and restaurant that catered to Penobscot Bay ME lobstermen/fishermen, Gloucester Mass fisher persons, and New England loggers. Seating 210. Bi level band stage, dance floor, huge game room, kitchen. Heavy Drinking Galore! Fist fights when appropriate - LOL.

I personally drank (partied) from age 12 to 43 yrs. When younger I've solo traveled this country at times for years in a row on my own pocket cash from business sales and at times with buddies who had cash too.

There IS one thing I am confident to state: Any amount of alcohol in a person's blood stream surely slows brain to muscle/nerve reaction time and as content increases that reaction time decreases - it's simple neurological fact. You could call it physical-physics!

Therefore, it is simply better for the safety of ALL to NOT DRINK AT ALL while operating ANY machinery.

Small caveat here: If a person is a raving alcoholic and shakes uncontrollably when "dry"... then best to have a small swig to steady your nerves while driving to nearest AA meeting! There you can learn "tools" for complete rest o' life abstention!

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Old 08-11-2014, 09:02 AM   #153
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One of the things I learned about alcohol is that the effect is pretty much the same for everyone but the more experienced drinkers have learned to hide the symptoms of their intoxication. In other words, if Bob and Joe weigh about the same and have the same amount to drink, they both are just as impaired but Bob might be staggering while Joe (the more experienced drinker) doesn't look drunk to most people.
Well put!
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:44 AM   #154
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That's the point though. The one's he's describing are those who are getting out of hand. They are the ones loud, staggering around the docks, yelling, turning music up, and in general being disruptive to everyone else. He's not referring to those who are just drinking on their docked boat and keeping their drunkenness to themselves. It's as if at home. You keep it in the confines of your home or boat, no issue. You disturb the neighbors then there is a problem.
Precisely, marinas are shared space. And a shared finger pier is even more so. If drinkers decide to gather outside on a sun deck boat five feet away from our open sundeck and speak in quiet conversational tones, if they don't start raising their voices after the first drink, if raucous laughter doesn't emerge during their good time was had by all, if they don't scowl and turn up their volume when I decline to participate, if they don't get nasty when I ask them to please tone it down when it invariably gets loud...then no problem. But it never, ever happens like that. So shared space becomes their space and we get driven inside the boat. Groups of drinkers are invariably rude, whether on the beach or on the boat. Now if there aren't any other occupied boats in the vicinity, then it doesn't matter. That's not what I'm talking about.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:42 AM   #155
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That's the point though. The one's he's describing are those who are getting out of hand. They are the ones loud, staggering around the docks, yelling, turning music up, and in general being disruptive to everyone else. He's not referring to those who are just drinking on their docked boat and keeping their drunkenness to themselves. It's as if at home. You keep it in the confines of your home or boat, no issue. You disturb the neighbors then there is a problem.
No, that's not what he said, and that's not what I quoted. You are expanding his quote (that I responded to) into something more to make your point.

This is what he said...

"I believe I prefer individuals who drink while boating to the drinking/drunken owner jerks who populate the marinas and docks. As a live aboard, one gets a very interesting perspective and insight into the boating community at large....largely alcoholics it seems. As a matter of fact, as I started typing this a well known drunk who frequents the marina on his boat stopped directly in front of another boat that pulled in next to us. The boat has a pennant that says "Happy Hour"....one of the universal signals amongst the serious drinking crowd. What this means for us is that the drunk and his wife will invite himself aboard the transient and they will disturb our peace for the rest of the evening. Since it's a sundeck boat, they will likely gather there as opposed to setting up the more typical drunk camp on the dock. This same sub-culture is very evident in the looper community. Anyway, I have to wonder how long it takes to metabolize a snoot full as many of these folks take off bright and early after a night of imbibing. Doubt they get eight hours between bottle and throttle."

He did not indicate any of the things you mentioned.

You can infer all you want, and so can I, but we need to get the facts straight.

My interpenetration of his quote is that someone met a friend at the dock as they were tying up. He was worried that they might sit out on their sun deck relaxing, and by doing that they might disturb him.

The reality of dockside life (for the large boat docks at least) isnt that they/we are a bunch of kids turning up the stereo. (remember you might be young, but for the most part big boat owners take decades to be able to afford their boats) They're older people, meeting a few friends on their tied up boats for a cocktail. Generally we're talking about no more than 6 people.

We need to remember that a dock is a shared space. I have not seen (again on the large boat docks) anything more than some older people socializing. If that pisses off someone that chooses to make that shared space their home, well sorry. Its a shared space.

There is no more right on a dock to get upset by some people socializing than would be appropriate to be upset at someone like the charter captain parked next to me that cleans his the exterior of his boat at night, and has people standing next to my porthole where I'm sleeping at 4:00 am boarding for a days fishing.

Its a shared space. If we want absolute quiet, the harbor isn't the place to be.
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:56 AM   #156
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Precisely, marinas are shared space. And a shared finger pier is even more so. If drinkers decide to gather outside on a sun deck boat five feet away from our open sundeck and speak in quiet conversational tones, if they don't start raising their voices after the first drink, if raucous laughter doesn't emerge during their good time was had by all, if they don't scowl and turn up their volume when I decline to participate, if they don't get nasty when I ask them to please tone it down when it invariably gets loud...then no problem. But it never, ever happens like that. So shared space becomes their space and we get driven inside the boat. Groups of drinkers are invariably rude, whether on the beach or on the boat. Now if there aren't any other occupied boats in the vicinity, then it doesn't matter. That's not what I'm talking about.
Skidgear, you are describing people sitting on their sundeck haveing a few drinks and laughing.

I'll be perfectly honest here...

If it was prior to say 10:00 at night (week day) and you asked people on our boat to "tone it down" because someone laughed too loud, I'd probably offer you a beer or ignore you to avoid a conflict.

Living on a shared space means that you have to deal with however others might choose to use that shared space. As long as the music isn't turned up, or its really late at night we have no rights to silence on a dock.

If I asked the charter captain parked right next to me to please not have a crew cleaning his boat (with music) at night, or to not allow his clients to talk and joke at 4 in the morning he would rightfully tell me to buzz off.

I'm sitting on my boat right now. I was up at 5:00 having a cup of coffee. The dock is a 24X7 place. At that hour people are walking up and down the dock. Fishermen are preparing to go out. Its not a silent place at any hour.

Thats part of what I love about harbors. The sights and the sounds of dockside life.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:09 AM   #157
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No, that's not what he said, and that's not what I quoted. You are expanding his quote (that I responded to) into something more to make your point.

This is what he said...

"I believe I prefer individuals who drink while boating to the drinking/drunken owner jerks who populate the marinas and docks. As a live aboard, one gets a very interesting perspective and insight into the boating community at large....largely alcoholics it seems. As a matter of fact, as I started typing this a well known drunk who frequents the marina on his boat stopped directly in front of another boat that pulled in next to us. The boat has a pennant that says "Happy Hour"....one of the universal signals amongst the serious drinking crowd. What this means for us is that the drunk and his wife will invite himself aboard the transient and they will disturb our peace for the rest of the evening. Since it's a sundeck boat, they will likely gather there as opposed to setting up the more typical drunk camp on the dock. This same sub-culture is very evident in the looper community. Anyway, I have to wonder how long it takes to metabolize a snoot full as many of these folks take off bright and early after a night of imbibing. Doubt they get eight hours between bottle and throttle."

He did not indicate any of the things you mentioned.

You can infer all you want, and so can I, but we need to get the facts straight.

My interpenetration of his quote is that someone met a friend at the dock as they were tying up. He was worried that they might sit out on their sun deck relaxing, and by doing that they might disturb him.

The reality of dockside life (for the large boat docks at least) isnt that they/we are a bunch of kids turning up the stereo. (remember you might be young, but for the most part big boat owners take decades to be able to afford their boats) They're older people, meeting a few friends on their tied up boats for a cocktail. Generally we're talking about no more than 6 people.

We need to remember that a dock is a shared space. I have not seen (again on the large boat docks) anything more than some older people socializing. If that pisses off someone that chooses to make that shared space their home, well sorry. Its a shared space.

There is no more right on a dock to get upset by some people socializing than would be appropriate to be upset at someone like the charter captain parked next to me that cleans his the exterior of his boat at night, and has people standing next to my porthole where I'm sleeping at 4:00 am boarding for a days fishing.

Its a shared space. If we want absolute quiet, the harbor isn't the place to be.
The fact is the two boaters didn't know one another previously. But the Happy Hour "signal" pennant on the front of the arriving boat was enough to facilitate the link up among obviously habitual drunks. Party time....and we were driven below by the loudmouth (60 something year old) revelers. They could have taken it to the dock/park area in front of the boats, but chose not to. Totally predictable...and rude...and characteristic of a huge segment of the "mature" boater community who drink. Thank goodness the charter fishing boats tend to congregate at another marina.

Shared space infers compromise...not sorry, you lose. The drinking community conveniently overlooks that.
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:32 AM   #158
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About five years ago, when we pulled into marina we still dock at... in a reclusive covered berth area with 19 slips and one large end tie... there were five "party people" boats in slips. They were loud and obnoxious. Afternoon of our 2nd day there, while we tuned-up our new slip, the "leader" of that group and I had strong words (our slips were side by side). While being "lit up" he said something way too rude to my wife. A VERY unwise move with me as husband. Anyway, The next visit we again ran into un pleasantries due to that "group". There were some other dock mates there that were nice, respectful people and they basically cowered to the wishes/ways of the "party people". Sooo... not being one to at all be trampled... I went to the main office of our marina and brought the female Harbor Master (who wife and I had already established good relations with) to our secluded, gated dock area while a dockside "party” was fully underway and many there were too drunk. Harbor Master immediately understood what I’d described at her office and stated a few strict rules to the party people. Well – you can imagine the resulting scowls, innuendos, and evaporating under-breath threats I received. Later that day I cornered the Party Leader for a succinct “private” discussion. In less than three months the party peoples’ boats had all moved to another marina. Instantly the palpable darkness of drunks-on-docks was lifted and a new feeling of lightness ensued. There was one more A-Hole that kept his boat there and owned a sizeable marine repair shop on the marina’s grounds. Turns out he was financially ripping boaters off while padding bills and providing poor service results. Some boaters I’d known for years before we moved to that marina came to me and asked what they should do. I said… give me time to “handle it”. Also, I soon found out, the Harbor Master disliked this person intensely and completely distrusted him, wishing he and his business would leave. A circumstance occurred wherein he and I were brought into direct “communications”. Toe to toe, nose to nose we had loud words in front of others in his main shop garage. Luckily for him he never touched me (not that I wasn’t wishing he would so I could legally handle business). Within a few more months he’d sold his boat and closed his shop. Since then our dock has been and remains a sheer joy to berth at. The A-Hole sold his boat to a wonderful couple that kept the same slip. New, honest, and really good mechanics took over the marine repair shop – I use them whenever necessary. And, no loud parties any longer occur. That said; during the years since “clean-up” there have been two boats with “undesirables” take a berth. One lasted about six months and the other less than two before moving-on! The several really good dock mates there, and we, and the same Harbor Master keep a pretty tight handle on the caliber of new boat people who berth near us. All is good! One often frequenting dock mate who has had same slip for near a decade is known as “The Mayor”… I’m “The Bouncer”!

Moral of the story – It’s OK to drink and party if you like at reasonable and respectful decidable levels with consideration for all others. It’s NOT OK to operate equipment while doing so. And, if being a drinking partier who simply thinks your “boots are too big”… be very careful what sober dock mate you may come into contact/conflict with.

Happy Boat-Party Daze! - Art
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:35 AM   #159
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The fact is the two boaters didn't know one another previously. But the Happy Hour "signal" pennant on the front of the arriving boat was enough to facilitate the link up among obviously habitual drunks. Party time....and we were driven below by the loudmouth (60 something year old) revelers. They could have taken it to the dock/park area in front of the boats, but chose not to. Totally predictable...and rude...and characteristic of a huge segment of the "mature" boater community who drink. Thank goodness the charter fishing boats tend to congregate at another marina.

Shared space infers compromise...not sorry, you lose. The drinking community conveniently overlooks that.
Skidgear

I am sorry you feel that way. Your observations have obviously jaded your outlook. I understand that, and hope for your continued happiness at the harbor.
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Old 08-11-2014, 12:00 PM   #160
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There are condo marinas and general purpose marinas...peace and quiet at a working marina where random noise, charter boats, any boats, or work crews can make noise at any time unless in the marina rules...you get what you get.

Courtesy is nice and it goes both ways...people are allowed to be people.

Peace and quiet...find a desolate anchorage or a mountain cabin.

I would like to always have my way too...buy at least I'm realistic in my view of the world....and share and play nice without always going toe to toe with someone...because I know there's ALWAYs someone out there that would kick my a** and never look like they could.

Someone mentioned alcohol doesn't control their life because they abstain...sounds like the ultimate control to me....and seems to come from the the chest out crowd and the "don't tread on me crowd"...etc...etc...yet the guy who has a beer or two in complete peace and harmony is a huge problem....
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