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Old 08-10-2014, 07:51 AM   #121
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A good size dent in the steel hull was left by the 50' fish boat.
We got drug and alcohol tested, lawyered up and never heard another word about it.
SOF, sounds like he was a boater under the influence who may also have HAD some influence.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:08 AM   #122
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Pretty standard SOP for the USCG and any commercial vessel incident.

We tow large fishing boats through a narrow drawbridge and every once and awhile one of the outriggers or even just a hanging bird hits the bridge. Just from that our boat crews all get interviewed and tested.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:34 AM   #123
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My brother and I got hit by a drunk boat operator in Penobscot bay late one night in December. We saw him coming as we strung out our tow (250' dry cement barge), repeated calls on the radio went unanswered. He finally slammed into the stern of the barge. He ran his boat up on Owls head as he was down flooding. Boat grounded just before it sunk, crew went ashore and were given medical attention and arrested.
Coats Guard came out and filmed our running light display and took our engineer to see the barge. A good size dent in the steel hull was left by the 50' fish boat.
We got drug and alcohol tested, lawyered up and never heard another word about it.
Soon after moving to Camden ME, having experienced (been exposed to) some pretty wild grow up years in areas of LI Nassau County’s south shore and in NY, NY:

Late 60's early 70's before, when, and after I owned a raucous bar/restaurant "The Hunter" in Camden (among other things accomplished) I spent time hauling traps and "playing around" on lobster boats and other type boats. In those days... in areas around Penobscot... distance travelled (by boat, truck, or car) was often measured by number of beers needed to complete the trip. Such as; "Heck - that's a 6 packer" - or - "... that’ill take a 1/2 case for sure!" In those (end of mid-20th Century) years the Penobscot region in general held little reverence for staying sober or drug free much less tea totaling while operating anything. We'd have large parties on Islands; my bar would supply the kegs/taps and lobstermen supplied the lobsters. Caldrons of boiling water, blocks of melted butter, and more beer than could be consumed was the norm, usually a couple times per summer. Occasionally around 2AM after closing my The Hunter restaurant/tavern... worker or two would load into my hot rod car with me and we'd play hide-n-sneak with a certain wild n’ crazy Camden Policeman on his night shift driving his cruiser (name will go unmentioned). Rules of the game (territory usually near Megunticook lake): If in fifteen minutes time he caught me I’d hand him a 6 pack through the window. If I eluded him, or beat (lost) him in a ribald road race, he gave me a “smoke able item” for my compatriots and I to enjoy. Yes, end of mid 1900’s were surely very different days – than now, in 2014.

Maybe this post can make it more clear to others on this thread why I am currently so against drinking and driving anything in my posts. I’ve been there done that; and, have lost friends due to “that”. So… I grew up and realized error in my ways. I became a true tea totaler. Aspirin for pain relief has been extent of my usage for decades! At this age I don’t mind at all if others imbibe as long as they don’t operate anything and don’t get too “squashed” (i.e. loaded) around me.

So, and although I well understand that was 40 + years ago into yesteryear I speak of in paragraph above, may I inquire (if you ever learned this)... what type fishing boat was it and what age were the people aboard, especially the operator? Just wondering! Memories I have run/are deep. And, I know and communicate with some of the real old boys from back when on the Penobscot. A few still lobster/fish in Penobscot. None I know of became tea totalers such as me. Together we do share friendship and memories.

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Old 08-10-2014, 08:38 AM   #124
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IMO, drinking is a highly over rated activity. Sitting on the back deck with my SO as the sun goes down is not enhanced in any way by alcohol. I can't think of any life experience that is enhanced with the addition of alcohol.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:02 AM   #125
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By Janice
"

Ok I'll bite. What in the world is a "bulldozer" I am familiar with the Cat, JD, and Komatsu varieties, but it seems you are writing about some sort of fish or crab?
A type of lobster. Also known as "slipper lobster."
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:18 AM   #126
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I generally avoid crowded holidays on the water, and otherwise presume every other recreational boat operator is asleep, drunk, distracted, or ignorant unless otherwise demonstrated.


Looks in good "shape" to me.
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Old 08-10-2014, 09:38 AM   #127
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IMO, drinking is a highly over rated activity. Sitting on the back deck with my SO as the sun goes down is not enhanced in any way by alcohol. I can't think of any life experience that is enhanced with the addition of alcohol.
In many places and times alcoholic beverages are just considered food and are part of a meal.

One's personal likes and dislikes should never affect another's life (to a point) as should one's actions never affect another's (to a point).

Thus the mostly emotional discussion of alcohol and the passing on of ideas and "scientific research" often done in a vacuum not accounting for many other human capabilities....that I HAVE seen the scientific research on.

Again I don't condone alcohol use...but I'm neither hypocritical of living life and how it affects others nor do I think I have a clue of what life should be about or like for someone else.

So sad so many comments insinuate that alcohol use is ALWAYS associated with alcohol abuse.
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Old 08-10-2014, 10:14 AM   #128
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So sad so many comments insinuate that alcohol use is ALWAYS associated with alcohol abuse.
Not speaking for everyone who's made such comments, but it could be as a form of self protection. I know if I have a mere sip it could 'wake up' that portion of my brain that had such control over my life for so long. I've fought the battle to win my life back, and have no desire to endure that struggle again.

For the people who think booze has no control over them, quit for a couple months. Maybe you are one of the people who can easily drink or not drink...or...maybe you're being led around by the nose and don't even know it.
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Old 08-10-2014, 10:42 AM   #129
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If anybody is struggling out there, I found this place to be a lifeline;

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Old 08-10-2014, 10:58 AM   #130
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In many places and times alcoholic beverages are just considered food and are part of a meal.

One's personal likes and dislikes should never affect another's life (to a point) as should one's actions never affect another's (to a point).

Thus the mostly emotional discussion of alcohol and the passing on of ideas and "scientific research" often done in a vacuum not accounting for many other human capabilities....that I HAVE seen the scientific research on.

Again I don't condone alcohol use...but I'm neither hypocritical of living life and how it affects others nor do I think I have a clue of what life should be about or like for someone else.

So sad so many comments insinuate that alcohol use is ALWAYS associated with alcohol abuse.
Alcohol use is not always accompanied by alcohol abuse. However, alcohol abuse is always accompanied by alcohol use.

I think we've gotten off into so many different subjects and tried to lump them all as one.

As to what or how much one drinks when it is not in a circumstance of causing harm to others wasn't the initial issue and isn't really the business of any of us. My wife and I drink at home when we don't intend to drive, in fancy restaurants when we don't intend to drive. Although we both had alcoholic fathers we do not oppose all drinking. Quite honestly, we don't even care personally about the drug use of others if it doesn't impact us.

As to guests on our boat, they occasionally drink at night when docked, but then in moderation. We don't serve alcohol while underway simply because we want our guests to be as safe as possible. Now would any of them having a drink or two endanger them? Not likely. We don't fault others who allow guests to drink in moderation while underway but just take a conservative approach ourselves. We don't allow drugs on our boats period as the laws are very strong in that regard.

We strongly oppose operating any motorized vehicle or vessel under the influence as defined by various legal entities. We would personally support much stronger laws and heavier penalties for such but we accept the laws as they are today.

We also strongly oppose anyone carrying passengers for hire, whether car or subway or train or boat or plane drinking or having anything to drink within hours before the start of the trip. They need to be at maximum functionality and no question as to their level of sobriety. Same with drugs.

We personally choose to not consume any alcohol when driving or when planning to drive. That's simply our choice. Not the law and beyond that we can force on others. However, we do hope that all will consider the effect of all they do on their ability to operate boats. That includes alcohol, sleep, health. We know sleep deprivation makes one less able to react and make good judgments and impacts alertness. The more the deprivation the greater the impact. We also know that alcohol consumption has an impact. The law defines the levels acceptable by law. But below that level one can argue. We believe the higher the more affected. Someone blowing a .20 is certainly affected more than a .10. And a .08 more than a .05 which is more than a .02 which is more than a 0. A person at .05 is somewhat impaired at least compared to a 0. Does that make them unsafe? The law in Australia says "yes" and in the US says "no." We would prefer they not operate a boat but it's not our position to force that. On the other hand we fully have the right to tell others not to exceed the legal limits. One doesn't have unlimited rights when those rights start to endanger others.

As to the charts, psneeld so opposes as science. They are estimates arrived at. Are they precise? Not for all. But limits were defined in most areas. I've seen people unfit to drive or even talk after one drink and others hold much more better. But I have seen tests and demonstrations with all levels of alcohol consumers. And in every one of those tests a change in reflexes came quite quickly. When did it make them unsafe as drivers might be argued, but that it impacted them in some way could not be.

I personally choose not to ride even with those who had two glasses of wine with dinner. But that's simply my personal choice. Are they legally under the influence? Probably not. But then I also choose not to ride with someone taking pain medications or who hasn't been to sleep in 36 hours.

We don't fit in the teetotaler group nor do we fit into the drink while operating group. We fit into the time and place group as we've determined is right for ourselves. Oh and as to teetotaler (and yes, that's the correct spelling). The term is a corruption of the term tea totaler and it originated in colonial times when the two choices of beverages were tea or alcohol. So, if one abstained from the drinking of alcoholic beverages then they drank tea totally.

This isn't an all or nothing thing even if we personally choose to make it nothing or if others do as well. But it's also not a "I have a right to do anything I want" thing either. The laws define acceptable levels. Other than that it's personal choice.

The issue of alcoholic came up within the discussion too. I'm not going to get into the determination of when one is an alcoholic or a drug addict or a caffeine addict or anything else. I will however state this for people just to think about. If there is anything I just simply cannot do without, that I'd choose even if it meant something else negative, then that's an issue I should think about. It may harm me or others. If I'd choose work over my child's recital, I may have a problem. If I'd feel deprived by not having a drink, then I may have a problem. If I choose to go to a sports event with a friend on my wife's birthday, then I may have a problem. We all have many habits. But when any of those habits start to interfere with other things in our lives, they may be a problem. (My wife is pointing out one habit or even possible addiction that she could never see being a problem but I'll not type that here). If you feel deprived terribly if you can't have beer with lunch, then think of that.

I once had a potato problem. Yes. I grew up and dinner always had potato in some form. I never had a hamburger without fries. Never ate a sandwich without chips. And dinner had either boiled potatoes, fries, mashed potatoes, or baked potato. Always. I felt deprived if there was no potato. It was intolerable. Was it a bad habit? Yes, ultimately it could be as I aged and couldn't burn all the carbohydrates. My wife and I both made the choice years ago to forego all fries and chips and to have the occasional baked potato and occasionally mashed potatoes. Just decided how to use a more reasonable potato quota. Haven't had fries or chips in over ten years. Just a choice. Now, how does that apply to alcohol? Again our personal choice. We don't drink beer, don't like it. Compare it to something quite offensive. We don't drink nightly. We don't drink while working or driving or during the day. We occasionally drink for special occasions. Our drink of choice is champagne. And if it's just the two of us celebrating our anniversary we may even continue in the bedroom and consume a great deal. Occasionally wine in a fancy restaurant selected by the chef for each course. Hard liquor only rare occasions. We can go weeks without alcohol. Just depends on circumstances. We were just on the boat for two months cruising the PNW and Alaska and didn't have any. Didn't really think about it. We've just chosen the balance that works for us. Just like we did with potatoes. Yes, you can have too much of even a good thing.

Now except when the thread has included some few personal attacks I think this has been an excellent thread and very important topic. Safe operation of our boats. And fact is that alcohol is involved in a lot of unsafe operation. It may be a controversial topic to some, but that doesn't make it unimportant. I think honestly that the TF group is among the safest boat owners so perhaps we can constructively address issues. PWC's and Go Fasts came up. Nothing inherently unsafe about either but they have more than their share of unsafe use. We drive cars that are known for unsafe operation even though we drive ours safely. I see holidays on crowded lakes and bays and I'm concerned. I avoid them. I'd hate to think that one day I might feel that toward boating in general.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:07 AM   #131
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As the captain/owner/pilot/OIC or whatever you want to call it I have the legal and moral responsibility for the safety of everyone aboard. There are very few rules on my boat. One is, there must be one stone cold sober person onboard at all times. And that's me. Everyone else is permitted to drink. Women are encouraged to do so.

And I'm no teetotaling Baptist, I enjoy my intoxicants. But I control them, they don't control me.
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:17 PM   #132
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1. For every person who does not drive/operate anything while at all encumbered to any level by/on anything - Bravo!

2. For every person who does - you are rolling the dice with other peoples' and your own well being.

That is simply reality as to the way it is.

Any person who can not recognize, understand, and admit/agree to that fact of reality in #2 has what is colloquially called "A Hole In Your Head". Meaning - you have a blank spot in your understanding regarding a certain portion of an honestly clear proven reality!

For the good of everyone... Please do not drink/drug and drive anything.

Happy "Sober" Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:29 PM   #133
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[/B]
Janice, it's nice to see common sense combined with a certain Joie de vivre.

HOWEVER, regarding perfection, could we steam the fish in a little green ginger with a clove of fresh garlic and a touch of light Soy.Add Mark's sautéed vegies with the Basmati rice, or perhaps a Jasmine rice, and I think we may have come pretty close to perfection.

Happy to leave the choice of the wine to you, although I would be delighted to see a nice Pouilly Fume on the table.

If we all moved over a bit and squeezed in, perhaps we could invite all those TF members who are not prohibitionists, to join us on Janet's delightful little boat Seaweed. Maybe we could ask one of the anchor set to bring along a spare pick just in case.
My mouth is watering. Perhaps I can join you.
Maybe we can start with some prawns stuffed with goats cheese and wrapped with prosciutto, washed down with a glass of a fine Kiwi sauvignon blanc from the Marlborough region.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:51 PM   #134
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I believe I prefer individuals who drink while boating to the drinking/drunken owner jerks who populate the marinas and docks. As a live aboard, one gets a very interesting perspective and insight into the boating community at large....largely alcoholics it seems. As a matter of fact, as I started typing this a well known drunk who frequents the marina on his boat stopped directly in front of another boat that pulled in next to us. The boat has a pennant that says "Happy Hour"....one of the universal signals amongst the serious drinking crowd. What this means for us is that the drunk and his wife will invite himself aboard the transient and they will disturb our peace for the rest of the evening. Since it's a sundeck boat, they will likely gather there as opposed to setting up the more typical drunk camp on the dock. This same sub-culture is very evident in the looper community. Anyway, I have to wonder how long it takes to metabolize a snoot full as many of these folks take off bright and early after a night of imbibing. Doubt they get eight hours between bottle and throttle.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:18 PM   #135
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Not speaking for everyone who's made such comments, but it could be as a form of self protection. I know if I have a mere sip it could 'wake up' that portion of my brain that had such control over my life for so long. I've fought the battle to win my life back, and have no desire to endure that struggle again.

For the people who think booze has no control over them, quit for a couple months. Maybe you are one of the people who can easily drink or not drink...or...maybe you're being led around by the nose and don't even know it.
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I had a battle with the bottle in my mid 20's.I won and came out on top.I can say,there was many nights I need to be in jail, and many that I just needed a good old fashioned @$$ whoppin.I am so glad that I never hurt anyone or killed anyone.Haven't touched a drop since May of 2006.I lost 2 uncles, and my father's heath conditions,that lead to his death,were made worse by alcohol.It best for me that I stay away from it.The admiral almost kicked my @$$, and left with our son, when I was being a drunken jack@$$.I'm not a violent drunk.Just a dumb lovable drunk that does stupid stupid stuff that some people rightfully don't appreciate.Alcohol is like pringles to me.Once I pop a top,I can't stop.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:45 PM   #136
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I spent 28 years in law enforcement and can't believe how many times I've heard people say they aren't affected by alcohol or can drive better after a few drinks. It's a depressant; the only thing you can do better after a few drinks is always going to be something stupid.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:54 PM   #137
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I spent 28 years in law enforcement and can't believe how many times I've heard people say they aren't affected by alcohol or can drive better after a few drinks. It's a depressant; the only thing you can do better after a few drinks is always going to be something stupid.
Agreed!
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:14 PM   #138
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I believe I prefer individuals who drink while boating to the drinking/drunken owner jerks who populate the marinas and docks. As a live aboard, one gets a very interesting perspective and insight into the boating community at large....largely alcoholics it seems. As a matter of fact, as I started typing this a well known drunk who frequents the marina on his boat stopped directly in front of another boat that pulled in next to us. The boat has a pennant that says "Happy Hour"....one of the universal signals amongst the serious drinking crowd. What this means for us is that the drunk and his wife will invite himself aboard the transient and they will disturb our peace for the rest of the evening. Since it's a sundeck boat, they will likely gather there as opposed to setting up the more typical drunk camp on the dock. This same sub-culture is very evident in the looper community. Anyway, I have to wonder how long it takes to metabolize a snoot full as many of these folks take off bright and early after a night of imbibing. Doubt they get eight hours between bottle and throttle.
That gets to a broader question than boating and drinking and that is general behavior and lack of consideration for others. That includes not just around boating but other areas. It's also beyond drinking. Professional sports events are tainted with drunken behavior. I think pro football is the worse. Concerts and musicals. Even movies where some choose to talk the entire time. Some marinas do a better job of enforcing decent behavior than others. I know it turned some away from boating on the lake as the only time they had for family boating was when behavior was the worst on holidays and weekends.

Those who get drunk and have outrageous behavior don't just harm non drinkers, they annoy those who drink under control and they do a disservice to those who drink responsibly. And even their less drunk friends just stand by and watch.

I will tell you that I will complain to a marina over such disturbances. We are careful to respect others. And perhaps if it's at an extreme where you are, it's time to call law enforcement. There are plenty of laws against public drunkenness and typically the one creating the problem will then get combative with law enforcement and dig their hole deeper.

The problem starts at a young age today. A tremendous percentage of high school students don't just drink, but drink with the sole purpose of getting drunk.

There are also other issues occasionally at marinas such as someone blasting music as loud as they can. We love music, but prefer to choose our own. We make a point if we're talking in a group on the bridge to take it inside at 9:00. My wife and I might still walk out and just take in the sky and water but we know many boaters go to bed early. We also make every effort not to arrive late at night.

Now to marinas, I'll say this. You choose whether you have a peaceful marina or one with poor behavior. You can't have both. You either run off those "customers" who disrupt the enjoyment of others or slowly the others will start going elsewhere. They may think being known as the "party marina" is good, but ultimately the only customers they'll have are the partiers.

Now that I've typed this, it strikes me if people want to further discuss what they encounter at marinas maybe that would be good for a separate thread. Drinking is just one part of it.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:15 PM   #139
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I spent 28 years in law enforcement and can't believe how many times I've heard people say they aren't affected by alcohol or can drive better after a few drinks. It's a depressant; the only thing you can do better after a few drinks is always going to be something stupid.
Doubt you ever stopped anyone and asked how much they'd had to drink and they said any number other than one or two.
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:02 PM   #140
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I abhor the whole Nanny State idea that a government can legislate us into total security or safety and nothing bad will happen because a particular Rule will be enforced. Leave me alone. Act responsibly and if you want a tipple while afloat or underway, go for it.

Seldom do I drink however I'm not about to tell anyone they cannot do so. It's not my business. ...............
Prohibiting people from operating a boat, car, etc. while under the influence of alcohol (or drugs) is not a "Nanny State". One of the legitimate functions of government is to protect its citizens and protecting them from other citizens who act irresponsibly is legitimate.

Simply put, It's fine if you want to get yourself sloppy drunk in your own home or even on your own boat, but when you endanger others, it's no longer OK. So if you drink alcohol and then take your boat out o the water, you might run into me. That's not OK.
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