Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-14-2015, 10:50 AM   #21
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
If you want to do it like Cook and Vancouver all you have to do is anchor the big boat offshore and launch a few guys in a rowboat with a leadline to find out where the rocks are. Make sure you have enough small boats and crew to tow the big one if you want to do it without an engine.

If Cook and Vancouver had a chartplotter and a GPS they probably would have been delighted to use them and not for one moment consider themselves less than competent seafarers. Where do you think most of the chart data in use today originated? It was guys rowing a little whaleboat taking soundings while triangulating their position.

I think technology now rules navigation but anyone is free to use a rowboat and a leadline if it makes them feel better. Marketing is how the best available technology is sold to those who don't want to carry lots of rowboats, surveyors, and cartographers.
...it would be interesting to know the percentages of navigational errors from then to now.

Being able to save your butt in the one in a million total electronic failure is good but knowing how to get your engine running is probably more important than celestial to most of us.

I still say coastal piloting without electronic in limited visibility is not easy for the feint of heart....I'm pretty good at it...but not having a crew to help with constant speed checking and lookouts while I crunch numbers and plot...would get pretty cheek puckering.

Broad daylight and decent vis shouldn't be much of a challenge...but when it's not...the first safe place to anchor is probably the best idea.

Raster charts are the same as paper charts so whether spread out on a table or on a screen I don't see much of a diff in nav.


But back to the OP...it is inconceivable to me to be planning a voyage and ask for the distance and even worse, the time it takes to get places. For the time you have to know your SOG and even that is a guess for long distance travel....pretty scary who is driving boats out there.
__________________
Advertisement

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 11:02 AM   #22
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
Marketing is how the best available technology is sold to those who don't want to carry lots of rowboats, surveyors, and cartographers.
Absolutely correct. I have 3 different charting systems (not counting the IPad) and use them all.

Vancouver had the best measuring, surveying and time keeping devices of his time. They felt their equipment quite up-to-date, rightfully so. Some of us started surveying and navigating with an Ephemerus, not sure I can spell it anymore.
__________________

sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 11:11 AM   #23
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post

Don't people every pick up a chart and navigate anymore?

)
Your implication is that one must "pick up a paper chart" to "navigate." Well, we do just fine navigating, using various types of software, planning trips, always knowing the answers to the questions you pose. We enlarge the charts to see any amount of detail we need. We occasionally will print out a page or two for one reason or another. We didn't start out on paper charts like most of you. We know fully how to use them but don't need to do so. We don't trust any one method for safely navigating but do double check with other tools.

Oh, we also use electricity rather than wood burning stoves, even use microwaves. We use electric lights rather than candles to read at night. We now use LED bulbs. We use computers and tablets and smartphones.

We also don't buy newspapers, but read them online.

But don't imply that those who don't do it your way, don't do it.

As to someone asking distances and times, they have always and will always do so rather than figuring it out themselves. I might note that they do that on land too. People ask how far or how long a drive is all the time when they could just pull up a map online.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 11:11 AM   #24
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 843
EMP? No problem.

Does anyone remember what this is and what it does? Or even better, how to use it?

__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 11:12 AM   #25
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Raster charts are the same as paper charts so whether spread out on a table or on a screen I don't see much of a diff in nav.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 12:15 PM   #26
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Your implication is that one must "pick up a paper chart" to "navigate." Well, we do just fine navigating, using various types of software, planning trips, always knowing the answers to the questions you pose. We enlarge the charts to see any amount of detail we need. We occasionally will print out a page or two for one reason or another. We didn't start out on paper charts like most of you. We know fully how to use them but don't need to do so. We don't trust any one method for safely navigating but do double check with other tools.

Oh, we also use electricity rather than wood burning stoves, even use microwaves. We use electric lights rather than candles to read at night. We now use LED bulbs. We use computers and tablets and smartphones.

We also don't buy newspapers, but read them online.

But don't imply that those who don't do it your way, don't do it.

As to someone asking distances and times, they have always and will always do so rather than figuring it out themselves. I might note that they do that on land too. People ask how far or how long a drive is all the time when they could just pull up a map online.
Not sure I see where I specifically said paper, but you can be that way if you like. I may have implied it because you can't use a divider compass on a plotter, but the point you missed was... oh nevermind.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 12:27 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post
EMP? No problem.

Does anyone remember what this is and what it does? Or even better, how to use it?

Please enlighten us. It's probably more effective than my tinfoil hat.
mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 12:58 PM   #28
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
Not sure I see where I specifically said paper, but you can be that way if you like. I may have implied it because you can't use a divider compass on a plotter, but the point you missed was... oh nevermind.
Maybe I erroneously inferred it from "pick up a chart and navigate" and "WELL GODDAMMIT PICK UP A CHART AND A DIVIDER COMPASS... MEASURE THE DISTANCE AND FIGURE IT OUT YOU IDIOT!!!". I do believe a couple of others did the same.

If your point is gaining knowledge and experience in using various tools and methods to plan and navigate then I totally agree. I'm not bothered by those who use technology or methods different than what I use, but those who are ill prepared for the cruising they undertake.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 01:32 PM   #29
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahal View Post
Please enlighten us. It's probably more effective than my tinfoil hat.
It is a DRT (Dead Reckoning Tracer) which was a large metal cabinet with a glass top. Under the glass top was a movable carriage and light attached to worm gears that controlled movement along the X and Y axis. It was normally covered with a chart or a piece of tracing paper. The DRT was coupled to the ships gyro and pitometer log (speedometer/distance log). As the ship moved, a light was projected upward which illuminated the chart or paper with a bright spot or 'bug'.

The moving bug provided an instantaneously updated DR position. The operator of the DRT merely plotted the position of the bug, noting the time on the chart plot. This provided a graphic representation of the ship's position. Corrections for actual fixes from other sources, set, drift and other factors were applied to enhance the accuracy of the plot and the resulting DR position.

Properly used and corrected, they were capable of producing quite accurate DR position information.

Remember, this was developed back in the days before GPS and satellite-based navigation systems. Weather could obscure the sky and you could go without a celestial fix for days. This DR plot could sometimes be very important.

__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 01:54 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post
It is a DRT (Dead Reckoning Tracer) which was a large metal cabinet with a glass top. Under the glass top was a movable carriage and light attached to worm gears that controlled movement along the X and Y axis. It was normally covered with a chart or a piece of tracing paper. The DRT was coupled to the ships gyro and pitometer log (speedometer/distance log). As the ship moved, a light was projected upward which illuminated the chart or paper with a bright spot or 'bug'.

The moving bug provided an instantaneously updated DR position. The operator of the DRT merely plotted the position of the bug, noting the time on the chart plot. This provided a graphic representation of the ship's position. Corrections for actual fixes from other sources, set, drift and other factors were applied to enhance the accuracy of the plot and the resulting DR position.

Properly used and corrected, they were capable of producing quite accurate DR position information.

Remember, this was developed back in the days before GPS and satellite-based navigation systems. Weather could obscure the sky and you could go without a celestial fix for days. This DR plot could sometimes be very important.

Very cool. Perhaps the beginning of electronic navigation?
mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 01:57 PM   #31
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
Paper chart for the area is always on the helm as the chartplotter/computer doesn't give the me the overview picture.
We still do this but we actually don't use the paper charts anymore even though they're there at the helm. Instead we now use an iPad with Navimiatics, which is a charting app (NOT a navigation app). This is far superior to paper for overview purposes because one can zoom in for a super-close detail look and then back out to include, in our case, all of Vancouver Island for example, with just a couple of finger swipes. Navimatics also overlays Active Captain so all the marina, anchorage, navigation, etc. information from AC is available right on the chart with just a finger tap.

And since we have a wifi/digital iPad instead of a wifi-only iPad, we need no connectivity at all to use Navimatics. Only the wifi/digital iPads have a stand-alone GPS receiver in them so need no connectivity at all, neither wifi nor digital, for positioning information. So the thing will track and show our position even if we're in the middle of the Pacific.

Navimatics shows the position of the vessel on the chart and also can lay a track behind it and show what we at Boeing call a "noodle," a line projected ahead of the vessel symbol showing where the vessel will be in a given time at its current speed.

The photo shows our underway configuration. In this case we're going through a narrow pass so have both plotters in chart display mode. Most of the time we have the old Echotec in chart display and the Furuno NavNet in split screen with the radar on top and the course and steering information on the bottom. We still have our chartboard and relevant chartbook beside the helm but today get almost all our "big picture" info from the iPad.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Skipper.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	137.7 KB
ID:	43151  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 02:45 PM   #32
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahal View Post
Please enlighten us. It's probably more effective than my tinfoil hat.
yep...had similar ones on the USCG cutters I first went to sea on...

like all DR...let it get away from you one little bit every now and then...and you were better at guessing your position.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:11 PM   #33
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
yep...had similar ones on the USCG cutters I first went to sea on...

like all DR...let it get away from you one little bit every now and then...and you were better at guessing your position.
Yep, that's when we broke out our special "Chart Darts" which we carefully threw at the chart. We assumed we were located in the center of the triangle formed where they landed . . . . .

This navigation method obviously works best with paper charts. I find it is hard on the screens of modern electronic MFD's and iPads.
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:16 PM   #34
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post
Yep, that's when we broke out our special "Chart Darts" which we carefully threw at the chart. We assumed we were located in the center of the triangle formed where they landed . . . . .

This navigation method obviously works best with paper charts. I find it is hard on the screens of modern electronic MFD's and iPads.
We were somewhat spoiled...some cutters has the original SATNAV...got a fix 2X a day and within 5 miles or so.

The kids got to shoot celestial all the time...fortunately being with the aviation detachment for almost all of my deployments...I just had to worry about their nav if I updated via aviation nav instead of relying on my kneeboard dead-reckoning to find that little white spot in the Caribbean who was looking for a rain shower to cool off and get freshwater..
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:48 PM   #35
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
We were somewhat spoiled...some cutters has the original SATNAV...got a fix 2X a day and within 5 miles or so.
IIRC, both carriers I was aboard had OMEGA and NAVSAT (NNSS) systems. OMEGA was a land-based global VLF system. NAVSAT was obviously satellite-based, and I think was derived from the TRANSIT system. It was also used to correct the shipboard INS.

Sorry for the thread creep . . . . I can't believe I remember any of that stuff anymore
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:51 PM   #36
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
The most frequent navigational challenge in the San Francisco estuary is avoiding the many skinny waters such as the notorious "middle ground" in Suisun Bay. I make simultaneous use of the GPS/chart plotter and paper charts. Radar is helpful in tracking the next set of channel markers on the extremely narrow approach channel to Petaluma River.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:00 PM   #37
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post
IIRC, both carriers I was aboard had OMEGA and NAVSAT (NNSS) systems. OMEGA was a land-based global VLF system. NAVSAT was obviously satellite-based, and I think was derived from the TRANSIT system. It was also used to correct the shipboard INS.

Sorry for the thread creep . . . . I can't believe I remember any of that stuff anymore
The old C-131 Samaritan twin engine aircraft from the Korean war was the interim aircraft between the HU-16 Albatross flying boat and the HU-25 Falcon jet in the USCG....it still had LORAN-A on it and during the first 1980 Cuban refugee operation I few Navigator on them occasionally. Lining up the oscilloscope pulses was amazing after flying the more modern trainiers in NAVY flight school.

More than one of my friends using that system got in trouble for making incursions into Cuban airspace. Still have the pic of the MIG that was famous for it's clarity of the time that intercepted one of our aircraft. Seeing the white of the pilots teeth smiling really got a chuckle out of our DoD friends.


Goes to show you that navigation is really an art as much as a science as the humans in the equation are the weak link all too often.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:00 PM   #38
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,789
I like paper charts simply because they are big, many times larger than a tablet , almost 4 times the size of our MacBook Pro, iMac or the 17 and 19" monitor screens for the two Furuno black box systems. (So it is not like we are techno-adverse.. each of those had their own GPS antenna system too) And they are fully sunlight viewable. We use the big chartbooks rather than the even bigger roll-ups.

Especially for open water cruising, I like to take a pencil and note right on the chart the time, position, course and speed as we go along, at more frequent intervals when conditions are poor. Course and speed changes trigger an entry as well, as does a change of helmsperson. Only takes a few seconds to add the same info to the log book if wanted. Very handy to note any unusual or uncharted items one observes. Another nice thing about the chart books is they are very handy when you are discussing a route with a fellow cruiser.

As for GPS, it can definitely be subject to anomalies. Some scheduled ones you get warned about through the LNM, others you don't. Two examples of the latter:

1) About a mile radius or so around our marina went GPS dark off and on (mostly off) for a couple weeks. You'd see transients coming in and they would all start looking at their gear and owner's manuals until a passerby let them know it wasn't just them. There are a variety of small military installations, on an Army reserve boat depot right by the marina, and the Navy comes into the adjacent port and conducts exercises form time to time with a variety of craft :




2) While anchored in Silverlake Harbor at Ocracoke, NC, this little dance took place. It was shown on all of the various GPS systems mentioned above:



Not sure if the Reynold's Wrap would have helped or not...
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 06:46 PM   #39
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
If your point is gaining knowledge and experience in using various tools and methods to plan and navigate then I totally agree. I'm not bothered by those who use technology or methods different than what I use, but those who are ill prepared for the cruising they undertake.

That, sir, was EXACTLY my point. Thank you. I don't care what you use, but learn to at least get from A to B with the right tools and stop looking like an idiot by asking on a forum how long it takes to navigate that distance. As captain, you need to understand the basics of navigation.

And for the record, I didn't want this to become a paper-plastic thread. They both have their place no matter what anyone tries to sell you.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 07:00 PM   #40
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom.b View Post
and for the record, i didn't want this to become a paper-plastic thread. They both have their place no matter what anyone tries to sell you.

Name:  ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1439593249.960045.jpg
Views: 174
Size:  89.3 KB
__________________

__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012