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Old 09-15-2012, 08:34 AM   #61
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Down-under, until all this trawler talk emerged from up there, we used to call all these boats we are talking about diesel (or petrol) powered 'coastal cruisers'...as opposed to ocean going. Maybe we should go back to that..?
An alternative we often use is 'trawler style' coastal cruiser, which sort of appeases the purists, who quite correctly point out there are no nets, so we are NOT really trawlers...
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:58 AM   #62
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Very few "trawlers" carry enough power to plane well.

"Well" being going fast enough that the fuel consumption per mile actually goes down with increased speed. SL 3+

At semi displacement speeds SL under 3 , there is little difference in weather a boat is round bottoms or has flats aft .

Mostly weight is the prime concern , hull shape (unless a plaining disaster like a canoe or double ended) doesn't make much difference.

The commuters of the 20's and 30's had mostly rounded bottoms and were fast and smooth riding for their times.Heavy engines + heavy hull weight was their biggest handy cap!

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Old 09-15-2012, 09:16 AM   #63
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Hi everyone - new to the board and thinking seriously about getting a CHB 34 trawler or something similar. Wanted to know if any of you ever have an issue with rolling side to side while underway or at anchor. Thanks
Hi fullsail

Your question “Do trawlers roll a lot?” been addressed enough for you? Haven't heard from you since your # 1 post that started this thread. Be careful what questions you ask us on TF... This bunch of passionate and at times cwazy boat owners can at times become over bounding in our answers, disagreements, and agreements. Hope to hear from you again and that you find the water-craft that pleases you... no matter its overall shape or hull design or brand!

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Old 09-15-2012, 10:57 AM   #64
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Art I can't believe your boat's only 34'. It looks like 44' in your avatar.
I was trying to lighten up and make a joke but you took it .. wha'd you say .. 50% serious or correct ...
I was just babbling Art. Being silly if you will.
But I love the feel of my planing boats at about 15 to 18 knots. Wish their hulls were better designed for about 12 knots. But there's basically nothing available. Everybody seems to want to go like the little red crazy guy in the smiles or slog along like a wwll landing craft. In about 2 or 3 years I think I'll be through w Willy, sell her and get an OB boat fairly narrow and basic. Big boats seem to be too much trouble now but w some more work on Willy and after getting used to Puget Sound waters again I may go on for years or say "been there done that" and bail.
My post was kinda like going into the fun room and then into the think tank. The thought just came to me that FD boats were the base boat and planing hulls were a spin off. Evoloution would be a better word. My choice of the word "mutation" was .. what do they say .. "tongue in cheek".
But in the interest of the ability to take things apart and see what ther'e made of .. full speed ahead ... all together.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:07 AM   #65
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Don - You listening! lol [/FONT]
Yeah. Cruising SL 4. What Fred said is true.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:24 AM   #66
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But I love the feel of my planing boats at about 15 to 18 knots. Wish their hulls were better designed for about 12 knots. But there's basically nothing available. Everybody seems to want to go like the little red crazy guy in the smiles or slog along like a wwll landing craft.
Well said Eric. In Puget Sound and inside waters I'd love to be able to cruise at 12 knots without going broke. With Budds' Outlet it is either 4-5kts or at least 24kts on plane. In between it is a real gas hog. So often the water is just rough enough that I can't go at planing speed but I could go at 10-12 kts. However, I get less than 1 mpg when I'm plowing along at that speed and at 4-5 kts I get bow steer that makes a lot of work out of keeping the boat going straight. I guess I have a planing hull boat.

PS: Eric, I'd be glad to take you for a ride at 40 mph but you would not want to pay for the fuel.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:26 AM   #67
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Apologies to fullsail for semi-hijacking the thread. However I do think this discussion is helpful when considering what type of hull/boat to purchase. Best wishes on your search.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:16 PM   #68
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Art I can't believe your boat's only 34'. It looks like 44' in your avatar.
I was trying to lighten up and make a joke but you took it .. wha'd you say .. 50% serious or correct ...
I was just babbling Art. Being silly if you will.
But I love the feel of my planing boats at about 15 to 18 knots. Wish their hulls were better designed for about 12 knots. But there's basically nothing available. Everybody seems to want to go like the little red crazy guy in the smiles or slog along like a wwll landing craft. In about 2 or 3 years I think I'll be through w Willy, sell her and get an OB boat fairly narrow and basic. Big boats seem to be too much trouble now but w some more work on Willy and after getting used to Puget Sound waters again I may go on for years or say "been there done that" and bail.
My post was kinda like going into the fun room and then into the think tank. The thought just came to me that FD boats were the base boat and planing hulls were a spin off. Evoloution would be a better word. My choice of the word "mutation" was .. what do they say .. "tongue in cheek".
But in the interest of the ability to take things apart and see what ther'e made of .. full speed ahead ... all together.
Hey, Eric - We here at TF are actually all pretty much on the same page (well maybe ancora is a slight exception - lol)... just in different boats! I like the banter, as it appears most others do too! Might learn something new, or at least get a different angle on items. - Cheers - Art

Where is fullsail, this thread's originator; his head must be spinning by now! lol
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:26 PM   #69
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Don,
Oh yes what Fred said is very true. Much of the time what Fred says is true ... just kid'in Fred.

Budd's Outlet,
Usually I don't like cutesy boat names but I really like Budd's Inlet ...I mean Outlet.

Twelve to 15 knots is the sweet spot for me and it looks like I'll have to build the boat to get it. I did that once but was 34 at the time. Here's the boat I designed and built. Keep in mind it was a prototype and roughly constructed. Just a prof-of-concept boat. But once I had it .. served me well for quite a few years. This boat made 11 to 15 knots on a 55hp OB. Most of the hull was 3/8" ply and 1/4" on the cabin. Like Fred says .. lightweight is king w planing hulls. Now if I can find the pic I did.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #70
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I've posted these shots before, which I did not take, but it shows one of the sampans or aku boats that were built locally in Hawaii in the later 1940s and early 50s for the tuna (aku) fishery there. These relatively narrow boats incorporated flat albeit curved bottom sections, hard chines, and even gunwale " hull bulges" (my term) to provide roll stability in the often very rough waters these boats fished in, like the infamous Molokai Channel. The "hull bulge" is obvious in the second shot and was quite effective as these boats were often rolled to their gunwales in the windy swells and waves around the islands.
Eric, the bulges on your proof of concept looks a lot like the bulges on the sampan Marin posted. Was there a connection in your design idea?
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:30 PM   #71
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But I love the feel of my planing boats at about 15 to 18 knots.
Both of my Shamrocks (20' &26') were happy around 16 MPH, can you guess why?!









Both were essentially scaled down SD trawler like designs
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:31 PM   #72
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Budds,
None whatsoever. But an excellent example of a HARD chine full disp hull.
Easy Rider was basically a totally new design. Other than the fact that I was trying to design a boat w the advantages of the Ray Hunt deep V without the huge fuel burning penalty ... she was all new and original. The boat I'd like to take out for a balls out spin in lumpy water is the Betram 31. LOVE that boat. Strange confession to be coming from a Willard owner. And for me to say that about a boat that's not a bit long and narrow too. When I was a young buck (I'm still a buck) all my skiffs pounded and I hated that. Sought a non-pounding fast boat. Easy Rider was all of that and more but at a great cost. With much weight over minimum she got doggy. But ultra light she was magic.

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With the right trim and power that boat would really FLY!! And I think there's really no perfectly straight line anywhere to be seen. THAT"S A GOOD DESIGN.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #73
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Boeing had a Bertram, I believe about 30-32 feet, that we used as a chase boat for the hydrofoils we were still building when I hired in. I was on it a few times. Very nice boat..

While our Arima cruises along very nicely at 30mph you only want to do it in smooth water. Mr. Arima designed the boat for Puget Sound's often-choppy water but also to not need a lot of power to plane. So it has a deep and sharp forefoot and high bow for the waves and a relatively shallow Vee in the afterbody. So even though it's a heavy boat for its size it only needs 90 hp to plane at 30 mph.

But.....if the water starts getting lumpy that shallow Vee afterbody will pound your spine something fierce so we have to slow down to a very inefficient mush. On the plus side the boat's wide beam (8') and flat aftersections with hard chines make it a very stable fishing platform. So it's sort of a miniature version of our GB hull only without the keel. And of course the GB doesn't have anywhere near the power to get even close to a plane.

This is an older photo. The boat now has a new Yamaha kicker in place of the ancient Evinrude.


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Old 09-15-2012, 02:27 PM   #74
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~~~So even though it's a heavy boat for its size it only needs 90 hp to plane at 30 mph.~~~
My Arima 1511 weighed 1,100#. I didn't consider it heavy? She would hit almost 30 mph with a 60 HP.

But like you said, she would pound you to death. My 18' Seaswirl WA was the same way...until I put tabs on her, then she'd slice nicely thru the slop.
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Old 09-15-2012, 02:53 PM   #75
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We have a 17' Sea Ranger and compared to other trailer boats this size it's on the heavy side. Plus we have probably 200-300 pounds of fishing/crabbing/shrimping equipment on board, 30 gallons of fuel, 20 gallons of water (in the bow which helps), and a 30 pound anchor and 250 feet of rode with 30' of chain on it. But even with all this weight (plus us and the dog) the boat still zips along at 30 mph at 5000 rpm ( redline is 6000). We put Dolefins on the motor which help hold the bow down in choppy water but once it starts getting rough we have to back off to a mushing plow.

But all in all Arima (who was a designer for Bayliner before leaving to start his own company in the mid-80s) did a great job of combining a lot of compromises to create a boat for the Puget Sound environment. It's why people who have them tend to hang onto them.

The best Arima model in our opinions is the 19' Sea Ranger but it didn't come out until several years after we bought our boat in 1987.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:14 PM   #76
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Budds,
Now I see what you were referring to about the bulges. That's just a boat skinny in the forefoot (and in this case the whole fwd end) and then abruptly goes to a shallow V. I've seen boats like this one that even go flat (no deadrise) amidships. But no not connected in any way. I call those "bulges" on the Easy Rider "sponsons". It's really a trimaran. A baby duck could swim around all three "hulls".

Twisted,
It's long enough, light enough, clean enough and dosn't need or have lifting strakes. The chines look sharp enough to break the water clean from the bottom and as I alluded to before I think she's got a little (very little) curve to the midsection and after section. Sa in rocker. Very hard to tell though. Ever seen one run at 40 knots?

jeffnick,
When I was a young man we put 10 to 25hp on a 16-17" boat. They were 5' or so wide and light they would go 1 knot per hp. And they were run light usually.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:26 PM   #77
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Ever seen one run at 40 knots?
No. The keeled Shamrock's claim to fame is their stability for fishing at rest and GREAT tracking at trolling speeds. 27 kts was WOT on my 26 with a new 350. She rode great at that speed but was THIRSTY. The 20 had a smog era 302 (1984) she'd top out around 30 knts. Others have changed engines and say that above 35 it starts chine-walking and you reign it back in quick. They do have a rocker shape but not very pronounced. With a flo-scan and gps its pretty easy to find their sweet spot. Newer Shamrocks have different designs that do away with the keel and rocker shape.
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:07 PM   #78
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Budds,
Now I see what you were referring to about the bulges. That's just a boat skinny in the forefoot (and in this case the whole fwd end) and then abruptly goes to a shallow V. I've seen boats like this one that even go flat (no deadrise) amidships. But no not connected in any way. I call those "bulges" on the Easy Rider "sponsons". It's really a trimaran. A baby duck could swim around all three "hulls".

Twisted,
It's long enough, light enough, clean enough and dosn't need or have lifting strakes. The chines look sharp enough to break the water clean from the bottom and as I alluded to before I think she's got a little (very little) curve to the midsection and after section. Sa in rocker. Very hard to tell though. Ever seen one run at 40 knots?

jeffnick,
When I was a young man we put 10 to 25hp on a 16-17" boat. They were 5' or so wide and light they would go 1 knot per hp. And they were run light usually.
I have about 5000 hard hours in full keel Shamrocks as an assistance tower...I have completely rebuilt them from the keel to the cabin top...they are submarines they are so wet (without a pilothouse/windshield wiper I almost refuse to run one) they can reach 30 knots but struggle even with a 454 in them, they stall pretty bad in sharp turns with a really nasty wall of water coming over the bow, pound badly in anything more than 2 feet above 16-18 knots...yet I can't think of a better swiss army knife for assistance towing work (for the bang for the buck of what they cost now)...but I would NEVER own one as a private boater...they can do everything asked OK but do nothing well (plus I have fished them for over 10 years on a regular basis so it's not all work)....
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Old 09-15-2012, 06:58 PM   #79
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full keel Shamrocks are submarines they are so wet .
^^^^this is why I sold the 20 Center Console. It was miserable to own in the Keys. For a river or inland protected lake it would be great. The 26 Hardtop was NICE. Yes it would pound if you tried to run her hard above 2', but I could run it at 15 in nearly anything! She'd just bull and wallow along. One of the things I really didn't like about the 26 was that although it was comparatively thrifty when compared to other 26's when ran in its happy spot (16-17 kts) on calm water it would jump from 8.5 GPH to around 11.5 in a chop. Wish I'd have had a 6BT powered one, but then I probably wouldn't have sold it so quickly and wouldn't have my trawler! I've mentioned getting a 17'er but the missus quickly vetoes that notion. I too went through both of those from stem to stern and then sold them. That is what drove my wife crazy, getting them perfect and then selling and not enjoying them when "done". Now if I can just run across a project Donzi Sweet 16 I/O!!.

PS how'd you like the sports car feel it had when turning. That always freaked people out when they first rode in mine. For the unfamiliar they track flat/level in a turn instead of leaning into the turn like every other planing hull out there!
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:08 PM   #80
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^^^^this is why I sold the 20 Center Console. It was miserable to own in the Keys. For a river or inland protected lake it would be great. The 26 Hardtop was NICE. Yes it would pound if you tried to run her hard above 2', but I could run it at 15 in nearly anything! She'd just bull and wallow along. One of the things I really didn't like about the 26 was that although it was comparatively thrifty when compared to other 26's when ran in its happy spot (16-17 kts) on calm water it would jump from 8.5 GPH to around 11.5 in a chop. Wish I'd have had a 6BT powered one, but then I probably wouldn't have sold it so quickly and wouldn't have my trawler! I've mentioned getting a 17'er but the missus quickly vetoes that notion. I too went through both of those from stem to stern and then sold them. That is what drove my wife crazy, getting them perfect and then selling and not enjoying them when "done". Now if I can just run across a project Donzi Sweet 16 I/O!!.

PS how'd you like the sports car feel it had when turning. That always freaked people out when they first rode in mine. For the unfamiliar they track flat/level in a turn instead of leaning into the turn like every other planing hull out there!
Shamrocks are like a loved junk yard dog....when it's right it's right...when it's ugly ...enough said. Most people see me do things with one that they only dream about with their own boat...often times with something in tow..not that I'm that good...just well practiced. It's a love/hate relationship with the boat...love it for working but would never buy one for it's bad habits.
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