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Old 09-13-2012, 09:56 PM   #21
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HA!
We lost stuff overboard while in the ICW. Yes we were in a sound, but Dangit if we didn't get hit by a few big waves.

I have a Monk 36 which isn't too much different than many other trawlers here. I have a big keel and lead in the stern by the rudder posts. If I get hit by a big wake or a nasty beam sea or even a quartering following sea we get rocked big time.

It helps if you are at the lower helm and not on the fly bridge, but the stuff that went overboard (twice) was on the lower deck both times which means we took quite a hit.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:09 PM   #22
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Nobody here has an ACTUAL trawler unless they happen to have a trawl net rig on board and know how to use it.
EXACTLY! TY MARIN... If you had not mentioned this, I was planning to. You have said same distinction in other threads
.
Eric - If you can call your little woody a "Twatler" I can call my little glasser a "Twatler" too! Trawler, Cabin Cruiser... "Twatler"... or whatever signifying name we may want to affix to our pleasure crafts. On this forum they are pretty much all simply Self Contained Power Boats that afford their owners (us all) much enjoyment. There are little to no REAL TRAWLERS on this forum - yours included. OP to this thread was concerned with roll. Plenty of input has been posted and should help in his/her decision.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:30 PM   #23
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Art,
you were touching on something that is not understood by myself, but I've heard mention of it and noticed it from time to time over the boating years. A boat that is planing (or slightly planing) has an advantage over the disp boat in that it has a dynamic hydrodynamic element of stability that the wallowing (by comparison) disp boat lacks.
Eric - It is the inherent surface pressure created at higher speeds by increased volumes of water flow passing by the hard chine and flatter bottom hull. Not too unlike the increased water flow that helps stabilize surf boards. Notice how surfers sit on the boards till a wave's attitude increases speed so they can stand and then maneuver the board with weight angles. Taller the wave, faster they go, better stability the board itself offers due to its bottom's increased surface pressure. - Art
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:31 PM   #24
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Yeah Art I was expecting Marin to chime in with that! I happen to like my faux trawler self contained power boat. I think you have an awesome boat and Eric's is ok too, for being wood and all. . LOL.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:34 PM   #25
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Art

I'm surprised you beat K Saunders to the reply button. The OP was asking about trawlers and rolling. You are happy you don't have a rolling trawler and instead have a purported rock solid in all weather Tolly. I'm OK with that and even from time to time read the Tolly owner's forum where I can read about one of my favorite non - trawlers. Some on that Forum are so bold as to claim they are a much better build than a Bayliner.
OMG - Better than Bayliner??? There are some BL lovers here - - > Let's hear it boys and girls!
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:46 PM   #26
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Yeah Art I was expecting Marin to chime in with that! I happen to like my faux trawler self contained power boat. I think you have an awesome boat and Eric's is ok too, for being wood and all. . LOL.
Hi Jennifer - P Girl,

Great to have you join this fray. Your boat is awesome too. Matter O' Fact - Every boat that is on this forum is just fine. I really don't care what "craft-model" name may be affixed to my boat. She's a dream and we love her, as I can tell you do also love your boat! Trawler Schmaller... these are all pleasure craft power boats that mostly look OK and all are fun to be aboard!

Cheers!! Art
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:58 PM   #27
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I'm not sure I agree with what Mark said that trawlers roll no more at anchor than single-hulled sailboats. Our center of gravity is higher than most sail boats and we are living higher up in the vessel most of the time. Even though we have 2,500 lbs of ballast it sure feels like we roll a lot.
You make a good point Larry. I was just considering the angle of roll. The farther one is from the center of gravity, the more movement. Fortunately, the living spaces (saloon and forward cabin) in the Coot are near the waterline.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:56 AM   #28
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OK - to summarize - It appears the general consensus (with exceptions) is the a well designed hard chined planing hull is more stable at rest than a soft chined displacement hull. Also - in average-good conditions, the same planing hull has less roll traveling at speed than a displacement hull traveling at 6-8 knots.
The reverse is true when the weather turns really ugly and the planing hull must slow to displacement speed. In this situation, a well designed displacement hull is much better equipped to ride out the storm, whereas the planing hull operator should read the changing weather and use its speed to get to safe water.
Have I got this right?
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:20 AM   #29
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OK - to summarize - It appears the general consensus (with exceptions) is the a well designed hard chined planing hull is more stable at rest than a soft chined displacement hull. Also - in average-good conditions, the same planing hull has less roll traveling at speed than a displacement hull traveling at 6-8 knots.
The reverse is true when the weather turns really ugly and the planing hull must slow to displacement speed. In this situation, a well designed displacement hull is much better equipped to ride out the storm, whereas the planing hull operator should read the changing weather and use its speed to get to safe water.
Have I got this right?
Well sort of

Back in the day... New England 1960's/70's... IMHO: I've been in heavy weather off shore aboard different hull designs. Much has to do with the operator's abilities (especially in conflicting seas), low center of gravity (to help the operator avoid broach), and available power (in a boat of D, SD/SP or P) to ride up during fast moving close duration following seas. Sooo... I think most well designed and built boats of any hull have good chances if the operator really knows what to do. Some are more comfortable in certain types of seas. But, bottom line, the buck stops at the hands of the Captain's handling capabilities.

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Old 09-14-2012, 05:58 AM   #30
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"Also - in average-good conditions, the same planing hull has less roll traveling at speed than a displacement hull traveling at 6-8 knots."

The problem is All boats roll , the shape of the hull will determine weather the boat is a bard bucket.

Roll which is soft (tho perhaps further ) when it checks and reverses direction is the easiest to live with.

A box bottom or hard chines is great at the slip , but underway the corners stop the roll much harder with a sharp quick motion.

BARF, BARF, BARF,

A really skinney hard chined boat might do this less , but few are that skinny.

YRMV
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:49 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
OK - to summarize - It appears the general consensus (with exceptions) is the a well designed hard chined planing hull is more stable at rest than a soft chined displacement hull. Also - in average-good conditions, the same planing hull has less roll traveling at speed than a displacement hull traveling at 6-8 knots.
The reverse is true when the weather turns really ugly and the planing hull must slow to displacement speed. In this situation, a well designed displacement hull is much better equipped to ride out the storm, whereas the planing hull operator should read the changing weather and use its speed to get to safe water.
Have I got this right?
Yes.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:26 AM   #32
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Art,
Where did you get the impression Willards were made of wood? Nary a one. They are all plastic like your Tolly. And what on earth is a "Twatler"? That's right Art you can call your mighty fine Tollycraft cruiser whatever you wish but if you don't like cruisers why do you have one. If I were you I'd probably lean toward being proud of what my boat is. By the way there WAS a Tollycraft that tried a little bit to be a trawler. An earlier plywood boat that had her wheelhouse way fwd. There was one in LaConner some time ago. I really liked that boat (38' I think) but your "boat" is much better looking. But if you have a picture of one of those Trawlycraft cruisers I'd like another look.

Auscan, Deflin and Art,
So if I read Chapman's enough I could round the Horn w my 26' 1966 plywood Sabrecraft light cruiser. I disagree. I think, generally speaking that full disp boats are more or much more seaworthy than planing boats. Planing boats MUST be light and light is at a big disadvantage in really big stuff. The shape of planing boats at both ends is either not good or bad for being on big waves. A light structure is light and a planing boat needs flat surfaces to plane well and flat surfaces are weak. And a boat using it's speed to run for shelter is showing all the world it's seaworthyness is in question. A seaworthy boat will have a relatively rounded hull shape and greater weight with it's greater strength.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:28 AM   #33
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"Also - in average-good conditions, the same planing hull has less roll traveling at speed than a displacement hull traveling at 6-8 knots."

The problem is All boats roll , the shape of the hull will determine weather the boat is a bard bucket.

Roll which is soft (tho perhaps further ) when it checks and reverses direction is the easiest to live with.

A box bottom or hard chines is great at the slip , but underway the corners stop the roll much harder with a sharp quick motion.

BARF, BARF, BARF,

A really skinney hard chined boat might do this less , but few are that skinny.

YRMV
Fred

Guess itís because I like the feel of the sharp, responsive hard chine planning hullís immediate return actions to my piloting commands while I Capt a boat (especially a good design well powered twin screw craft)... while in ocean waves, confused inlet waters or inland water ways from huge wakes or stormy winds. And, cause I was blessed with real good equilibrium tween my ears so the word Barf never has come to mind or fruition during any boating circumstance. Iíve piloted D hull boats; at or below hull speed I found their roll a PITA for any ongoing duration as well as making it more difficult to stay on heading in some sea conditions. Now donít get me wrong... D, SD/SP, and P hull designs all have their high and low points for working with water conditions... and Dís surely offer the most economical capabilities... in the long run. However, I prefer the overall feel of hard chine bottom twin screw boats with rounded transom, slicing prow, and substantial upper hull flare that can be cruised quite economically at hull speed with one screw operating at a time... yet provide opportunity to fire up her twins and plane out for smoother ride and more mileage covered, with potential to run for minutes or hours at near WOT - - > to move like hell and get out of the way whenever necessary. Our Tolly gets approx 2.75 to 3 nmpg doing 6 to 6.5 knots on one screw (7.53 k is calced hull speed)... 2 nmpg on twins at hull speed... 1 nmpg at 16 k to 17 k twin screw plane... and, OMG Ė NO nmpg at 20 to 21 knots; WOT 22 to 23 k. All these figures are +/- depending on how loaded our Tolly may be.

Using 32í water line length; for a thumbnail of annual miles traveled/fuel cost comparisons:

Single screw D hull averages 3.5 to 4 nmpg operated at its hullís cruise speed of approx 7.5 knots. Twin screw P hull averages 2 to 2.25 nmpg when intelligently operated at its various cruse speeds (letís say an average of 10 knots). Boats are each operated 300 hours per year. Therefore: D hull travels approx 2,250 miles / P hull travels approx 3,000 miles - - > Figured on the best fuel mileage calcs Ė D hull uses 750 gals per year / P hull uses 1,333 gals per year - - > that means (at avg fuel cost of $4.50) that D hull costs $3,375 in fuel / P hull costs $5,999 in fuel - - > difference is $2,624 annual dollars Ė divided by 52 weeks = $50 per week extra fuel cost to own and enjoy the capabilities of a planing hull. Most boat owners can handle that. Also to look at this difference is in another light - - > if instead of the 3,000 mile travel figure used in these calcs for P hull, we reduced P hull to the miles traveled at 2,250 miles of the D hull (notably less hours for P hull to go same distance), and took the 750 mile reduction x 2.25 nmpg at $4.50 per gal cost then P hull annual fuel cost is reduced by $1,350. In that light it means P hull added annual fuel cost over D hull was only $1,274 which = $25 more cost per week to fuel a P hull in comparison to a D hull Ė Iíll gladly spend that $25 per week to get there quicker, experience better ride, and spend more time on the hook/dock-berth/mooring with a Planing Hull!


YRMV!!! Art
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:13 PM   #34
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Am I correct in thinking that if you want a serious passagemaker you buy a boat with a displacement hull and if you want a boat for just cruising around locally you pick any hull type that turns you on?

There has to be a very good reason why passagemakers like Deltas, Nordhavns, Watsons and others have FD hulls.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:17 PM   #35
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Art,
Where did you get the impression Willards were made of wood? Nary a one. They are all plastic like your Tolly. And what on earth is a "Twatler"? That's right Art you can call your mighty fine Tollycraft cruiser whatever you wish but if you don't like cruisers why do you have one. If I were you I'd probably lean toward being proud of what my boat is. By the way there WAS a Tollycraft that tried a little bit to be a trawler. An earlier plywood boat that had her wheelhouse way fwd. There was one in LaConner some time ago. I really liked that boat (38' I think) but your "boat" is much better looking. But if you have a picture of one of those Trawlycraft cruisers I'd like another look.

Auscan, Deflin and Art,
So if I read Chapman's enough I could round the Horn w my 26' 1966 plywood Sabrecraft light cruiser. I disagree. I think, generally speaking that full disp boats are more or much more seaworthy than planing boats. Planing boats MUST be light and light is at a big disadvantage in really big stuff. The shape of planing boats at both ends is either not good or bad for being on big waves. A light structure is light and a planing boat needs flat surfaces to plane well and flat surfaces are weak. And a boat using it's speed to run for shelter is showing all the world it's seaworthyness is in question. A seaworthy boat will have a relatively rounded hull shape and greater weight with it's greater strength.
Eric - to your items bolded above:

Don't remember saying Willards are wood?? Matter o' fact I did not know their build-out materials so I would not have conjectured - I think?

I have clear close-up pict of Tolly you mention, but can’t get it to downsize to attach here... PM me your email and I’ll send you the pict. Also visit http://www.tolly-classified.com/class3.html for more descriptions of many models Tollycraft. Punch up the 1977 and 1978 pages off that page to see the 37’ so called Trawler and 37’ so called Long Range Cruiser, respectively. That model was discontinued from lack sales of due to lack of interest by Captains as well as general boat owners.

Our low center of gravity Tolly 34' weighs 17,000 lbs dry and approx 21,000 fully loaded - you feel that's light?? Well... maybe you feel that way because Tolly does not need 1,000's of extra pounds ballast in order for it to perform!

Although you have a nice D hull boat – May I suggest getting a nice P hull next time. Live life!!! Well designed P hull boating is fun too!
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #36
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Am I correct in thinking that if you want a serious passagemaker you buy a boat with a displacement hull and if you want a boat for just cruising around locally you pick any hull type that turns you on?

There has to be a very good reason why passagemakers like Deltas, Nordhavns, Watsons and others have FD hulls.
Mahal - Economy for long distance big/long/heavy passage makers... it seems a D hull can't be beat! Unless, the owner has bottomless pockets that is... then economy is not even in their range of care! Regarding overall sea worthiness of a fine designed, well built craft, the jury is "always" out on P or D hulls. It depends on a Captain's preference. Also, after a certain length the only wise design is D hull, i.e. longer they are greater their hull speed is! - Art
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:37 PM   #37
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Am I correct in thinking that if you want a serious passagemaker you buy a boat with a displacement hull and if you want a boat for just cruising around locally you pick any hull type that turns you on?

There has to be a very good reason why passagemakers like Deltas, Nordhavns, Watsons and others have FD hulls.
That would be the way I would look at it. One factor is that a full displacement hull has the center of gravity very low compared to a planing or semi displacement hull. This takes on some importance when the waves get to, oh, 30 footers.

Another factor is that whatever kind of stabilization you have, it will be more effective on a tender full displacement hull than a stiff semi displacement or planing hull, also a factor to consider on two week long passages. Tenderness translates to a greater tendency to roll without stabilization, but less force required to correct roll with stabilization.

If your cruising grounds are all behind islands, or only involve short hops in the blue, then a stiffer hull may give more pleasure than an unstabilized full displacement hull. If stabilized, however, my preference is always the fd hull simply because the motion through the water (wherever that water is) will always be more comfortable that the alternatives.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:41 PM   #38
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That's right Marin.
We're all (most at least) heavy cruisers and that's what they (trawlers) were called before someone came up w the silly idea of calling ice cream boats trawlers.
As I've related before, American Marine never used the term "trawler" to describe their Grand Banks line of boats. In their ads and literature they simply referred to them as "diesel cruisers.". Which is what I call all boats of this type. The faster planing or semi-planing boats like Tollycrafts, Uniflites, and any other boat with the set back, raked-windowed main cabin I call a "cabin cruiser" which was the original name of this type of production boat back in the 1950s or whenever.

As to stabilizers I agree with Psneeld's basic premise that for most coastal cruising they probably aren't needed unless one is particularly bothered by rolling motion. We've never felt the need for stabilizers even though a GB has the quick snap-back roll typical of this type of hull.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:05 PM   #39
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My trawler was a roller. My small outboards got tossed terribly in any kind of wake. Now I'm running a 28' tri-hull houseboat that only goes up and down...very little roll or pitch. Is it 'seaworthy'? Probably not, and I don't intend to find out. I have no plans for offshore passages or open water runs... My point is that if you want a looper type boat, you can have one that will not rough you up from a wake or chop and if you need to wait out the weather, and you will, you'll be doing it on a relatively stable platform.

This is a track from an overnight on the hook on Lake Powell. NOAA reported winds over 30. For us it was a peaceful night.



Pic of tri-hull on trailer.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:32 PM   #40
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Gosh, next thing you know Eric will be saying that I don't have a trawler!!

Yes, trawler style boats as any unstabilized boat will roll at displacement speeds or at rest. Dynamic stability is a very real thing. If you don't believe it, come ride with me at planing speeds. Then slow down to displacement speeds. My deep V in a beam sea will roll like a round bottomed boat.

You will get used to the characteristics of your boat, and drive it for the best comfort in different situations. Just don't tempt fate. Be reasonable and take precautions.
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