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12-18-2018, 11:20 AM
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#41
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Guru
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,742
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I was finally able to reach a decision-maker at the marina and I’m very pleased with the outcome. I accepted their modest adjustment on the gearbox removals—despite the fact that the bill was still high. They completely retracted the refrigerator billing (it was actually $520) which I thought was more than fair.
My three takeaways: 1) there’s no substitute for ethics and treating people respectfully in business . . . as in life; 2). never agree to have work done without making expectations clear on the front end; 3) never authorize work to be performed when you’re in a rush or pre-occupied.
Thanks again for the great discussion and good advice on this.
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12-18-2018, 11:26 AM
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#42
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Guru
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,050
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Glad it worked out. Your take-a-ways are spot on.
We arm chair lawyers can now take a break....
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12-18-2018, 12:22 PM
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#43
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99
I was finally able to reach a decision-maker at the marina and I’m very pleased with the outcome. I accepted their modest adjustment on the gearbox removals—despite the fact that the bill was still high. They completely retracted the refrigerator billing (it was actually $520) which I thought was more than fair.
My three takeaways: 1) there’s no substitute for ethics and treating people respectfully in business . . . as in life; 2). never agree to have work done without making expectations clear on the front end; 3) never authorize work to be performed when you’re in a rush or pre-occupied.
Thanks again for the great discussion and good advice on this.
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Sounds like a reasonable solution reached all the way around with just moderate discussion of the issues. They accepted a portion, you decided you could live with a portion. No winner, no loser, just fairness.
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12-18-2018, 03:41 PM
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#44
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.
Yards have their own sets of problems, but discounting bad work shouldn't be one of them. Around here they are charging $85 - $120/hr. The guy actually doing the work is unlikely to be getting more than $20/hr. Sure there's burdened overhead and all that. But if the yard collected $500 for 5 hours work in which their direct cost was $100, then a 50% discount "to share the loss" isn't a loss at all for them. They still made $150 on lousy work. Part of the discrepancy over what they pay and what they charge is to cover "comebacks", the term used to describe work that was not satisfactory. It is ironic that the yard with the largest percentage of comebacks must charge the largest premium over labor costs to stay in business.
It isn't just direct labor either, there are charge-throughs. I had my mast stepped in a well respected Chesapeake yard, and after I had gone found the crane was charged through at more than $1200. It had been there less than an hour. The yard had insisted on using this particular crane service, I was not allowed to contract one myself. After receiving the bill I called every crane service in the area and asked for a quote. None came any higher than $500, which was already more than what I had payed previously. They eventually discounted it to $700, and I'm sure still made money on it. The only reason they discounted it was they had not been paid, and I had already left. Many yards will hold your boat hostage until you pay their unreasonable bill.
I've found less than 1 in 5 yards does good work, less than that for a reasonable price. I've found that the quality of the work has no relationship to price. If you are staying in the area you can move about till you find that one good yard, but as a transient you are at their mercy, and I suspect many of them know that.
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12-18-2018, 06:08 PM
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#45
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.
Yards have their own sets of problems, but discounting bad work shouldn't be one of them. Around here they are charging $85 - $120/hr. The guy actually doing the work is unlikely to be getting more than $20/hr. Sure there's burdened overhead and all that. But if the yard collected $500 for 5 hours work in which their direct cost was $100, then a 50% discount "to share the loss" isn't a loss at all for them. They still made $150 on lousy work. Part of the discrepancy over what they pay and what they charge is to cover "comebacks", the term used to describe work that was not satisfactory. It is ironic that the yard with the largest percentage of comebacks must charge the largest premium over labor costs to stay in business.
It isn't just direct labor either, there are charge-throughs. I had my mast stepped in a well respected Chesapeake yard, and after I had gone found the crane was charged through at more than $1200. It had been there less than an hour. The yard had insisted on using this particular crane service, I was not allowed to contract one myself. After receiving the bill I called every crane service in the area and asked for a quote. None came any higher than $500, which was already more than what I had payed previously. They eventually discounted it to $700, and I'm sure still made money on it. The only reason they discounted it was they had not been paid, and I had already left. Many yards will hold your boat hostage until you pay their unreasonable bill.
I've found less than 1 in 5 yards does good work, less than that for a reasonable price. I've found that the quality of the work has no relationship to price. If you are staying in the area you can move about till you find that one good yard, but as a transient you are at their mercy, and I suspect many of them know that.
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If you're finding only 1 in 5 does good work, you need to take a fresh look at how you select yards. As to reasonable price, that might be influencing your selection too greatly and who can say what is reasonable. I know we pay more than some but we never have problems with the work done.
It is more difficult when you're a transient but there are other boaters around and boaters will talk. Many will not be very helpful in what they say but others will be.
I'm very familiar with the costing techniques and the profits of yards and while the good ones are profitable, very few are what I'd call highly profitable. With some it's due to their own mismanagement but with others it's due to the market. Florida yards do better than most others because they don't have the severe seasonality. Northern yards depend on winter preparation and storage and preparing in the spring but they still have months without work to keep their staff busy. Some have strategies to live with that. However, I know one in a major boating market that can't keep young diesel mechanics as they go down the road to the truck shop.
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12-18-2018, 06:11 PM
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#46
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
Another takeaway might be don't pay the bill till you are happy.
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As you indicate, not often an option and the yard does have a lien on your boat.
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12-18-2018, 09:08 PM
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#47
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
If you're finding only 1 in 5 does good work, you need to take a fresh look at how you select yards. As to reasonable price, that might be influencing your selection too greatly and who can say what is reasonable. I know we pay more than some but we never have problems with the work done.
It is more difficult when you're a transient but there are other boaters around and boaters will talk. Many will not be very helpful in what they say but others will be.
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I was a transient all the way down the east coast. I was very careful about my choice of yards, asking anyone who would talk about who they would recommend and why. I asked only after quality and care, not price. I was truly happy with only one, that being Hinckleys in Stuart. A couple of others did marginally acceptable work at a high price. Still others I had to watch the work so closely I would have put less time into it doing the work myself. What I learned in each location was of no use, as the next time I would be somewhere new.
As I said, there was not a relationship between price and quality. Some of the best quality at a low price, some of the worst at a high price.
I understand the plight of the yard manager, who must depend on yard personnel who are not typically paid well. Overhead is high and business is affected by seasons, weather, and economy. A phenomenon I ran into more than once was a manager who knew exactly what to do and how to do it, but because of that very fact had been promoted into management, the people actually sent to do the work were learning on the job - in several cases not very fast, either.
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12-18-2018, 09:12 PM
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#48
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
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Well done Ian. "Trading concessions", I think.
I just accepted a Yard error. Doing some repairs I wanted an antifoul done,made a point of emailing them what I use. They used something else, inferior, not as long lived, possibly incompatible but I hope not. I`d collected the boat even before getting the bill, it told me what they used. Paid it anyway,and told them I was disappointed. If it proves incompatible they`ll get asked to redo it,and probably will. Otherwise,just part of life`s rich pageant.
Note: A lien requires possession. Return the boat = no lien. Here anyway.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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12-18-2018, 09:24 PM
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#49
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
I was a transient all the way down the east coast. I was very careful about my choice of yards, asking anyone who would talk about who they would recommend and why. I asked only after quality and care, not price. I was truly happy with only one, that being Hinckleys in Stuart. A couple of others did marginally acceptable work at a high price. Still others I had to watch the work so closely I would have put less time into it doing the work myself. What I learned in each location was of no use, as the next time I would be somewhere new.
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I do look for manufacturer certifications and have found those can sometimes provide a clue.
Not surprised you were happy with Hinckley.
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12-18-2018, 10:26 PM
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#50
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Guru
City: Signal Mtn., TN
Vessel Name: Stella Maris
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK
Well done Ian. "Trading concessions", I think.
I just accepted a Yard error. Doing some repairs I wanted an antifoul done,made a point of emailing them what I use. They used something else, inferior, not as long lived, possibly incompatible but I hope not. I`d collected the boat even before getting the bill, it told me what they used. Paid it anyway,and told them I was disappointed. If it proves incompatible they`ll get asked to redo it,and probably will. Otherwise,just part of life`s rich pageant.
Note: A lien requires possession. Return the boat = no lien. Here anyway.
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Thanks, Bruce. I had a similar experience with the last bottom job at a different yard. I asked for a specific color; they used what they had on the shelf. They ended up putting an extra coat or two of the right color on gratis. Hope yours turns out well. “Life’s rich pageant”: the perfect metaphor for dealing with boatyards. .
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12-19-2018, 05:56 AM
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#51
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
I understand the plight of the yard manager, who must depend on yard personnel who are not typically paid well. Overhead is high and business is affected by seasons, weather, and economy. A phenomenon I ran into more than once was a manager who knew exactly what to do and how to do it, but because of that very fact had been promoted into management, the people actually sent to do the work were learning on the job - in several cases not very fast, either.
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That's why we call it work. Yes, it's hard, and yes, it's a balancing act. But smart people figure it out.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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12-19-2018, 10:48 AM
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#52
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Guru
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
As you indicate, not often an option and the yard does have a lien on your boat.
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In that case you take it to court.
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12-19-2018, 12:30 PM
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#53
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Senior Member
City: Toronto
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction
In that case you take it to court.
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aannddd ... that will be the end of your stay at the marina
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12-19-2018, 07:35 PM
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#54
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Guru
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Sailor
aannddd ... that will be the end of your stay at the marina
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Maybe so, but what is better? Getting what you paid for or staying at the marina?
I would leave anyway and find another marina who respects me and the money I will spend there.
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12-21-2018, 08:04 AM
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#55
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,834
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If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Admittedly, I have a great relationship with my boatyard. While I'm not familiar with what other people do, I couldn't imagine not being in the boatyard most every day to see how things are progressing. While someone may not have the time to spend the whole day in the yard, a couple of hours each day to see what's being done would probably make a huge difference. As an example, changed bottom paint this fall which necessitated removing most of the original paint and ordering the new. While there weren't any issues, I saw the removal of the old over a few days, so that I knew it was satisfactorily done, and saw the new paint applied on two days, so I knew 2 coats were applied. Went to the owner and specified the paint I wanted, which he ordered. Checked back a couple days later to see if the paint had come in. Moved the paint to my boat area so that it wouldn't get misplaced or accidentally sold. Yes, I know I'm OCD, but rarely disappointed.
The other part is that I decide what I will let the yard do versus doing it myself or bringing in an outside contractor. There's no way I would let them touch my electronics, they would probably decline anyway. While I do it all myself, if I were going to use an outside contractor, it would be me interviewing them and determining what they will do. I might still have to pay a fee to the boatyard for bringing in the outside contractor (has never happened in the past), but I need control over the work being done and direct accountability.
While you might think the yard loathes me cause I'm always there, it actually works well, and there's never issues with the yard wondering what I want. I'm the same way with house remodeling projects. Show up each day, stay out of the way, don't nitpick, but make sure things are beginning done to my satisfaction.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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12-21-2018, 10:00 AM
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#56
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Guru
City: Ashland, MA
Vessel Model: 1990 Silverton 40 aftcabin
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver
If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Ted
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12-21-2018, 11:16 AM
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#57
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver
If I had the troubles you all seem to have, I'd probably sell my boat. Admittedly, I have a great relationship with my boatyard. While I'm not familiar with what other people do, I couldn't imagine not being in the boatyard most every day to see how things are progressing. While someone may not have the time to spend the whole day in the yard, a couple of hours each day to see what's being done would probably make a huge difference.
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If you live close to your boat, you can search till you find a yard you like, and supervise them closely. If you live 1000 or 3000 miles from your boat, and it is in a different location every year, that is much more difficult. You fly to the location, rent a car, rent a hotel room while you are supervising their work. Might as well do it 8 hours a day since you've nothing else to do. Maybe, might as well do it yourself? Not a matter of just popping around the corner for an hour or two.
Until this August, my sailboat was never closer than 1000 miles from home, for 10 years. In a different location each season, always new to me. I eventually resigned to doing nearly everything myself - it was either that, or pay a lot to get something done, and then redo it myself properly anyway.
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12-21-2018, 11:55 AM
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#58
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Guru
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
If you live close to your boat, you can search till you find a yard you like, and supervise them closely. If you live 1000 or 3000 miles from your boat, and it is in a different location every year, that is much more difficult. You fly to the location, rent a car, rent a hotel room while you are supervising their work. Might as well do it 8 hours a day since you've nothing else to do. Maybe, might as well do it yourself? Not a matter of just popping around the corner for an hour or two.
Until this August, my sailboat was never closer than 1000 miles from home, for 10 years. In a different location each season, always new to me. I eventually resigned to doing nearly everything myself - it was either that, or pay a lot to get something done, and then redo it myself properly anyway.
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I can totally understand and appreciate your situation. Couldn't have a boat in that situation.
Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
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12-21-2018, 12:09 PM
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#59
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver
I can totally understand and appreciate your situation. Couldn't have a boat in that situation.
Ted
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That's why many choose to use managers of some sort when their boat is distant from them. I am friends with owners of management companies in South Florida and know that many of their users would just not have the work done right and on time without using them to do regular follow up and to make sure the completed work has been done right. Perhaps you find a local captain in the area in which the boat is located.
I realize this is added cost but so is not having the boat ready when you return though incomplete work, work done poorly, or just issues that arose while it was sitting.
While checking on the work as it takes place is preferable, if that was impossible, I'd at least want to check as soon as they say it's complete so that I'm not left complaining two months later.
Now, one thing to keep in perspective on this thread is that the yard and the boat owner were able to resolve the issues to their satisfaction. Perhaps not to the satisfaction of some forum members, but that's not really relevant.
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12-21-2018, 01:33 PM
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#60
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Senior Member
City: Grenadines
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 167
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If you have already paid the bill and left, I doubt you will have much luck getting a refund.
If the boat is still there, you will need backup support in the form of an email or letter from the refer company's tech support and some acknowledgment from the head mechanic, preferably on paper, that one of the trany jobs was unnecessary. Produce the old, functioning, refer fan as well.
Most marina/boat yards rely on repeat business so I wouldn't let them know you have no intention of returning. Predicate your request for the bill reduction on the idea they may get a shot at getting their money back from you in the future.
I wish you luck, but unfortunately, it seems that there are few, if any, reputable, honest, capable and knowledgeable marine repair people left anywhere in North America or the Caribbean, these days.
Few even understand the equipment they work on and just change parts until they get lucky, charging you for all their unnecessary time and the unnecessary parts.
We went through 5 air conditioning techs and several thousand dollars before becoming so fed up that we decided to break down and buy the tools and go for it ourselves. Five different techs from 5 different companies had various opinions about our problem, from the system was too old (of course, they suggested that they replace it at a 'very good' price) to tapping a solenoid with a hammer on start-up.
It ended up being a hole in the RFD which we found in about 5 minutes. As we so rarely needed refer/ac repairs, I had avoided buying and carrying around the necessary tools (gauges, gas bottles, vacuum pump, etc) aboard for many years, but finally threw up our hands and bit the bullet.
Haven't spent a dime on refer/ac techs since.
__________________
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats."
-Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Grahame
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