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Old 05-18-2016, 06:42 AM   #21
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Next winter change the oil BEFORE storing the boat.

Any acids not neutralized by the used additive package have been chewing on the engine surfaces all winter.

For me single weight still wins .

Change the oil after a long hard run ,all day if you can , while still very hot.

PIA but should do the best job of removing the fines, that work like grinding paste if not removed.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:23 AM   #22
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Wow, lots of good information. Personally, I've stuck with using API "CJ" rated oil, Mobil 15W40 in my old Perkins 6-354. We use it in all our diesel generators and diesel vehicles (trucks and my son's VW Golf TDI) and in all our customer's diesel equipment. We've had no lubrication related issues in tens of thousands of hours of use in dozens of pieces of equipment.

In general, I'd say the main thing is to stick with oil bearing the API "C-something" designation, as they're blended for diesels (the symbol S-something being blended for gasoline engines).

Let's be honest here, most of the diesel engines in trawlers have lifetimes so long as to be effectively infinite. I've had engines with 20,000+ hours that still ran as-new with only regular PMs (valve lash adjustment, fluids & filters). The chances of wearing out a modern marine diesel are pretty low.

Onward!

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Old 05-18-2016, 08:39 AM   #23
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In addition to cold weather easy flowing oil also help get stuff lubed when engines sit a long time as with some boats.


Also consider that diesel fuel is significantly different than when old engines were made. Some of the additives in newer oil compensate for that.


I would be curious about what oil is recommended for construction equipment or city bus and garbage trucks that are always heavily loaded.


In the final analysis I cant remember the last time anyone reported an oil related engine problem despite the abuse and various oils used on zillions of boats.


Slow boats with older engines are probably not all that heavily loaded anyway. Planing boats run at 50 HP per liter are from my point of view.
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Old 05-18-2016, 10:33 AM   #24
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bayview wrote,
"In addition to cold weather easy flowing oil also help get stuff lubed when engines sit a long time as with some boats."

How does that happen?
Thinner oil will drain off parts like bearings and cylinders sooner and provide less lubrication when startup happens.
Also lube oil pumps are fixed volume gear on gear pumps. They pump a fixed amount of oil or break their drive shaft.
And we're only talking about small amounts of viscosity difference. The same amount of oil will reach the moving engine parts. But it will be slightly higher in viscosity providing better lubrication w SW oil.
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:22 PM   #25
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SUS viscosity for 15W at 100F is around 200 SUS (Saybolt viscosity).
For 30W at 100F is around 500 SUS (2 1/2 times more viscous/resistant to flow).
100F is just the standard testing temp used for comparison. At colder temps the spread is greater, esp for 30W.

The unanswered question is does this lead to the oil pressure relief valve opening during a cold start? If it does, then there is a lot less oil going to the motor. A clue would be if you can see/tell if the bypass on the filter can is opening during a cold start, it is set lower than the main relief valve.

The oil pressure gauge on the main bearing gallery of my cold diesel jumps up from zero in about 2 seconds or less; that's about 15/20 revolutions.

We can bat this one back and forth over a beer sometime, I'm at the end of J dock when I'm there. (15W-40 Rotella guy)
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:44 PM   #26
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bayview wrote,
"In addition to cold weather easy flowing oil also help get stuff lubed when engines sit a long time as with some boats."

How does that happen?
Thinner oil will drain off parts like bearings and cylinders sooner and provide less lubrication when startup happens.
Also lube oil pumps are fixed volume gear on gear pumps. They pump a fixed amount of oil or break their drive shaft.
And we're only talking about small amounts of viscosity difference. The same amount of oil will reach the moving engine parts. But it will be slightly higher in viscosity providing better lubrication w SW oil.
Stiff cold oil is just harder to get flowing . Any oil on surfaces is better than none.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:31 PM   #27
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bayview,
The starter motor seems totally up to the task.

Farrel,
That's a good question about the relief valve. But the issue is flow not pressure. PM me your phone # and I'll ding you next time I'm at the boat.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:39 PM   #28
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I would be curious about what oil is recommended for construction equipment or city bus and garbage trucks that are always heavily loaded.

They simply change the oil more frequently.

If 12,000 is OK for an over the road truck with that engine,

6,000 miles would be used in transit or garbage collection.
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Old 05-18-2016, 02:43 PM   #29
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bayview,
The starter motor seems totally up to the task.

Farrel,
That's a good question about the relief valve. But the issue is flow not pressure. PM me your phone # and I'll ding you next time I'm at the boat.

imo you will see pressure up sooner with light oil than heavy . no doubt you change your engine oil on a cold engine in cold weather because you like it to take longer to pump []
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Next winter change the oil BEFORE storing the boat.

Any acids not neutralized by the used additive package have been chewing on the engine surfaces all winter.

For me single weight still wins .

Change the oil after a long hard run ,all day if you can , while still very hot.

PIA but should do the best job of removing the fines, that work like grinding paste if not removed.
So, I am wondering how all that acidified oil eats the metal when it all drains down into the oil pan. Also, unless the TBN of the oil has been reduced to an unacceptable level which never happens with regular oil changes which most folks do well before the TBN goes south I just don't see the danger of changing the oil in the spring. IMHO this is just another dock tale and a reason for yards to get more business changing oil that doesn't need changing just like changing oil on a motor vehicle every 3,000 miles, another waste of good oil.
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:39 PM   #31
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Maybe, but if you change the oil yearly, why not do it in the fall before laying up fir the winter?
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:43 PM   #32
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When the Lehman manual was written, multi-grade oils had lower lubricating properties than straight grade oils, so they recommended straight. But today multi-grade oils have much better lubricity so I think you will get good performance witht he mult-grades. And in your climate you will get the benefits of easier starting when it is cold.
This is right on the mark. Bob Smith and his 50-year-old manuals recommend straight grade oil. At the time of manufacture this was likely good advice. However, over the decades, as one might expect, there have been technological advances in the oil industry such that multi-viscosity oils are indeed better for even old, old engines. As far as the additive package being consumed, oil analysis will reveal that it does not come close to happening at the change intervals boaters employ. Your engine will be very much happier starting with multi-viscosity oils. Science, it's amazing, isn't it?
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Old 05-18-2016, 04:48 PM   #33
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David

Thanks for the response. I'll apologize in advance for the lengthy reply but Ive seen many simple generalizations and the subject is far from simple.

I’m not surprised to hear you are an engineer based on your prior posts & valuable / common sense approach…
I’m a retired mechanical eng w/ no petro experience - just a curious type trying to learn more about diesels.

From what reading I’ve done my understanding is: (correct me if / where I’m off base w/ my assumptions)

Multi-Vis oils are comprised of 3 basic components

1) Base oil – I’m assuming it is multi-vis base oil is neither better nor worse than comparable single vis oil?

2) Viscosity Index modifiers –

a) Used to make a 10wt oil act like 30wt at higher temps to yield a 10W-30 multi vis oil
b) I can believe early VI modifiers were not as effective as modern ones (your point)
What I’m wondering is – are these newer ones actually better than the base oil and impact an improved lubricity that makes the multi-vis superior to single wt or is it that they now don’t detract from the base oil and they are equivalent?
c) I’ve read the following re: VI modifiers…
Disadvantages
Unfortunately, viscosity index improvers do have some drawbacks. The primary disadvantage is they are susceptible to mechanical shearing. When referring to the slinky analogy, it is easy to imagine a stretched-out slinky cut in half by mechanical processes to produce two shorter slinkys.
As the additive is repeatedly sheared, it loses its ability to act as a more viscous fluid at higher temperatures. Higher molecular weight polymers make better thickeners but tend to have less resistance to mechanical shear. Lower molecular weight polymers are more shear-resistant, but do not improve viscosity as effectively at higher temperatures and, therefore, must be used in larger quantities.”

d) I am assuming the affect of c) above is that over time, as the oil ages & is stressed that the 10W-30 oil starts to act more like 10 wt oil at higher temps – not a good thing in our diesels!?
e) I’ve also read – “modern oils contain viscosity improvers, clever molecules that increase their length when hotter. These are designed to reduce consumption but do not improve the oil's lubrication properties.”
f) Based on e) above I draw the conclusion that regarding lubricity - modern multi-vis oils can be equal to single wt but not better?

3) Additive packages & API Ratings – this is where I get lost as to exactly what the various components of the additive pkg (AP) are and do. Again my reading leads me to believe the following:
a) Much / most of the difference in the latest / “improved” AP’s and latest API diesel ratings (CJ-4) have been pointed at / req’d to meet newer / lower emission regs in OTR trucks for diesels especially those w/ DPF’s (diesel particulate filters)… for example - I understand the level of detergents in CJ-4 oils is limited to reduce DPF plugging
b) One component of the AP is aimed at reducing the acids generated by combustion – this is the TBN # where higher has a greater capacity than lower #’s. I have seen a report that states “There is a great deal of evidence to show that use of an oil with a TBN that is too high for the duty can lead to several problems, particularly high wear rates of cylinder bores.”
c) My 2007 Yanmar 6LYA-STP manual recommends API CD 30wt above freezing (where I boat) or 15W-40 or 20W-40 where temps are below freezing. I’ve research newer manuals and see they have added API CF-4 & after the YM engine was introduced they included the CI-4 ratings but have not endorsed API CJ-4 oils – at least as far as I’ve seen.
d) One learning / conclusion is that the new CJ-4 oils MAY not be better than - in fact may not be as good as - the previous CF / CI-4+ category oils for us boaters (no catalytic converters or diesel particulate filters DPF's)

My take-aways and current practices based on all of this is:

1) Use a CF. CF-2 or CI-4 API rated oil – looking at Shell Rotella as an example that means straight 30wt which is CF/CF-2 rated (other brands e.g. Chevron Delo I consider equally suitable)
2) Avoid CJ-4 rated oils which again using Shell Rotella T Triple 15W-40 is rated CJ-4
3) I have no need to “cold start” my boat engine so see no benefit of multi-vis oil – other than it is readily available and reasonably priced due to the large volume used in trucks.

Most (not all) of the references above are from the Cox Eng Best Lubricants for Yacht Engines report I've referenced before & attached
All this angst about additive packages and multi-viscosity oils is "much ado about nothing". Think just for a moment. There is not a single engine manufacturer in the world which does not specify the use of multi-viscosity oils and some of those recommend and use synthetics from the factory.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:16 PM   #34
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All this angst about additive packages and multi-viscosity oils is "much ado about nothing"..
No angst intended. ..I'm just curiuos and trying to clarify & learn from a pro that worked a career in the industry.
I've used both and sleep well at night.
I do believe the Cox Eng report is science / fact based and I pay attention.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:33 PM   #35
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Maybe, but if you change the oil yearly, why not do it in the fall before laying up fir the winter?
Agreed, but only if it truly needs changing due to its having reached its change interval. If not, leave it in and change it when it needs changing.
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Old 05-18-2016, 05:35 PM   #36
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No angst intended. ..I'm just curiuos and trying to clarify & learn from a pro that worked a career in the industry.
I've used both and sleep well at night.
I do believe the Cox Eng report is science / fact based and I pay attention.
The only pro that should be trusted when it comes to oil is a petroleum engineer. Boat mechanics can only pass on their anecdotal experiences which are, well, relatively limited and truly unscientific.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:13 PM   #37
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This is a tough one.

Not really. In fact it's easy. Use the 15-40 or the 30w.

It's a frikin Lehman. It's not going to matter in the long run one weight or the other.
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Old 05-18-2016, 06:45 PM   #38
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This is a tough one.

My gut says to stick with what the engine is used to but my brain says to use the recommended straight 30wt.

The good thing is that it probably doesn't make any difference.


In addition, when I first got to Maine, went to the store and discovered that ALL the fisherman use 15w/40 I started using that also. So the store had no straight weight oils.

Also in part because most people boat in warm, hot climates. I don't.
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:38 PM   #39
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My oil analysis says if you are not going to run a specified oil...the oil analysis is a good idea to see what is happening with regards to the oil and engine wear.


Well my Lehman has about 2500 hours....mostly at relatively low RPMS (1700 on average)...half with 15W40 and half with 30Wt. All the engine oil analysis reports came back the same...basically no unusual wear or breakdown of oil or poor lubricity by the multi weight.


Use whatever you like...again...much ado about nothing.


Newer engines and the bet changes.
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:46 PM   #40
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The only pro that should be trusted when it comes to oil is a petroleum engineer. Boat mechanics can only pass on their anecdotal experiences which are, well, relatively limited and truly unscientific.
catalina,
I've been saying that for years!
And the information in manuals is largely gleaned from engineers. But more objective material is what engineers write in scientific data or even magazine articles. Auto mechanics not so much. In fact the most outrageous "old wives tales" frequently come from mechanics. It's unfortunate but common that mechanics put on the enngineers hat because they are asked to or because they are frequently looked up to as being very knowleable and it's hard to ignore sincere flatery.

My engine manual recomends SW and MV oils mainly because (IMO) most of the Mitsu S4L2 engines are used on generators or small tractors and back hoes. On a back hoe I'd use MV oil too but there's no reason to use it in most boat engines. If you don't need MV oil there's no good reason to use it.
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