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Old 02-16-2008, 12:40 PM   #21
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Eric,

Yes there is a special antifreeze for diesels. Engine manuf. each have their own recommendations. I think FF was talking about looking around for empty oil cans or oil used to top off the engine to see what kind the PO had used.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:44 PM   #22
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Eric---

There are antifreeze "mixtures" that are formulated specifically (or so the manufacturers claim) for diesel engines. The only one I am familiar with is sold under the Cat name (I don't know who actually makes it). According to our diesel shop, which uses and recommends it, Cat diesel antifreeze contains components that help prevent internal corrosion and other potential problems. Apparently, this is particularly helpful in a marine environment.

It used to be recommended that antifreeze be changed every couple of years no matter what. Our diesel shop---- and I presume many others--- no longer recommend this. Instead, they recommend having the antifreeze checked regularly to determine if it is still within specifications. If it is, don't change it. If it isn't, change it. This typically greatly extends the time between antifreeze changes, which considering its toxicity and difficulty to dispose of, is a Good Thing.

OAT is Outside Air Temperature.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:08 PM   #23
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Here's more information than you want about OAT, IAT and HOAT. Context Marin, it's all about context.

Antifreeze is used in cooling systems to both lower the freeze point of water and
raise its boiling point. It is also used as a carrier for different types of additives
such as sodium silicate to protect aluminum from corrosion, anti-foaming agents
and other corrosion inhibitors. Although straight antifreeze actually freezes and
boils quicker than tap water, when mixed with water in the proper proportions (a
50% / 50% mix is ideal) in a cooling system, it greatly increases the cooling
system's ability to perform its designed function of removing heat from critical
engine parts and to enhance the service life of the various cooling system
components.
Inorganic Acid Technology (IAT) is the chemical composition for the traditional
antifreezes that are green in color. An IAT can be used with either ethylene glycol
(EG) or propylene glycol (PG). The normal IAT service life is two years or 30,000
miles (50,000 km).
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) was the first LLC / ELC introduced in North
America in 1994. OAT antifreeze had been widely used in Europe before its
introduction in North America. OAT can be either EG or PG but is mostly EG
based. Its first dye colors were orange and red. These dye colors are still used by
General Motors and Caterpillar. Green, pink and blue have been added to the list
of available OAT antifreezes. It is recommended that OAT not be mixed with any
other antifreeze technology. The normal OAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or
150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) is a combination of IAT and OAT with
nitrites added. This makes HOAT suitable for use in both light duty and heavy
duty systems. Currently, two manufacturers are using HOAT for their vehicles.
Daimler/Chrysler's version is dyed orange and contains 10% recycled antifreeze.
Ford Motor Companys version is dyed yellow and does not contain any recycled
antifreeze. Both of these HOAT antifreezes use the marketing designator of GO-
5. They are compatible with each other but mixing them with IAT or OAT is not
recommended. The normal HOAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or 150,000
miles (250,000 km).
Nitrated Organic Acid Technology (NOAT) is an OAT with nitrates added. This
makes NOAT also suitable for use in both light duty and heavy duty systems.
NOAT and HOAT are very similar in performance characteristics. Currently, no
OEM vehicle manufacturer is using NOAT. The normal NOAT service life is 5
years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).


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Old 02-16-2008, 01:08 PM   #24
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Lehmans don't need any special diesel antifreeze, just use a good quality automotive. I use the orange Dex-Cool myself.

Where you need the diesel antifreeze (or an additive that accomplishes the same thing) is for the wet liner diesels. The bubbles that can form impinge on the liner and can wear it out. Dry liner engines don't need anything special.

Or is it the other way around? I always get those two mixed up.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:45 PM   #25
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RE: Diesel engine hours

The additives in "diesel" antifreeze are there to make the coolant flow over the metal and "adhere" to the metal. If there is not a close bond between the coolant and the metal when the metal expands slightly do to combustion, the concussion will allow the air molecule in the coolant to form a tiny air bubble on the metal. The forming and disolving of those bubbles over time will form pits in the metal, eventually eating thru. (if you're up on propeller cavitation theory it's a similar phenomenon)

Wet liners by design, are thinner than cast sleeve blocks. Therefore it takes much less pitting to cause a problem with them. Also being thicker, the cast sleeve block will form fewer bubbles.

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Old 02-16-2008, 01:51 PM   #26
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Ken--

Right but I think Eric was asking about FF's use of the term OAT in his post about observing the smoke that comes out of an exhaust on startup. I believe FF's point is that the colder the OAT (outside air temperature) the easier it will be to see and judge the smoke. I think FF has an aviation background or experience of some sort, and OAT is a commonly used term for outside air temperature in that field.

I could be wrong, but I believe that's how FF was using OAT.
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Old 02-16-2008, 05:16 PM   #27
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Ah hah! I see where that came from now. I started the session reading at Eric and Jims posts, they are talking only about AF and diesel antifreeze. Then you wrote two paragraphs on anti freeze and finished up with one sentence about Outside Air. My brain didn't follow the reply properly.

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Old 02-17-2008, 04:16 AM   #28
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RE: Diesel engine hours

"I think FF has an aviation background or experience of some sort, and OAT is a commonly used term for outside air temperature in that field."


Yup , Navy pilot and then a few decades with a major carrier. JFK based.

A DIESEL antifreez has SCA to help the cylinder walls last a bit longer.

SCA forms a slyme on the exterior of the cylinder and when the cyl rings like a bell (weather you here diesel knock or not) the cavitation is removed by the thickness of the slyme from the cylinder wall.

So the slyme gets the abuse of the cavitation, not the cylinder.

2 problems , the slyme coats everything , so periodically the Entire cooling system needs to be flushed and cleaned , or the general cooling will suffer.

The SCA has a limited life , so it needs to be replenished. Trucks that run high miles may need SCA , before a complete cooling system flush , so thete are antifreez test kits.

On a boat use the antifreez mfg change , or the engine mfg change sked , which ever is SHORTER.

We have a DD so the liners are in cast iron , so the SCA is not a problem , we use auto Prestone and ONLY!!! distilled water.

Its changed once a year when the boat is laid up for the season to be sure fresh antirust and water pump lube are in for next use.

The price of PM (preventive maint) is usually paid back 100 fold.

I expect as the high speed flyweight diesel car transplants /marinizatrions (Yanmar =Toyota land cruiser & BMW , or Mercedes Benz" become more common the PM may pay back 1000 to one.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:06 AM   #29
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RE: Diesel engine hours

FF:* What did you fly in the Navy and did they use "shot gun starters" or were they cranked by hand?
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Old 02-17-2008, 04:26 PM   #30
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Ken and Fred,

You guys are an incredible source of knoledge and I'm sure glad you're here. Don't go away as we will be needing you on a regular basis. My two diesel engine manufacturers, Yanmar and Mitsubishi, both recomend long life type AF but no mention of diesel application. Yanmar talked about aluminum and corrosion. I have no aluminum anywhere on my new Mitsubish, thankfully, and have Chevron AF long life and not the stuff for Catipillar. Would you recomend a change? The main reason I'm with Chevron is availibility in Alaska. I would hate to have my bubbles misbehaveing.

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Old 02-17-2008, 07:40 PM   #31
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RE: Diesel engine hours

A convenient thing for you to do is find an AF coolant that is appropriate for both engines and use it exclusively. Chevron has a number of long life choices, so I'd look in the owners manual to find what ASTM spec is preferred by each engine, then go to https://www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsSe...bus.BusPDSList
to find the product that fits your needs and is available in your area.

While looking around I find that many manufacturers are pushing the 50/50 mix. I suppose that works fine for topping off. For flush and fill remember that there is going to be some retain in the system that you can't get out. If you refill with 50/50 you will be diluted from the start.

A Lehman 120 holds about 5 gallons of coolant. So for me I'd drain, refill with whatever flush I'm going to use, run and circulate the water up to operating temp, drain again, (fill and flush as many times as needed until it comes out clean) then add 2.5 gallons full strength antifreeze. After that I'd top off with water. (distilled or filtered or tap is a whole 'nother argument) Then, with the half gallon of full strength I can dilute it to 50/50 for top off or leave it full strength as I desire.

I imagine most folks do it that way with both antifreeze and motor oil for drive engines and gensets.

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Old 02-17-2008, 10:21 PM   #32
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RE: Diesel engine hours

Thanks Ken,

Bad choice of words on last post. Yanmar was in previous boat and Mitsubishi is in the present Willard. BMW motorcycles recomended 60-40 heavy on the water ( distilled ). I've always adhered to that as it dosn't ever get down to 0 degrees here. I have used Macs 13 ( NAPA ) but I found out it's oil and one time I got too much in and it kinda made a mess. I keep waiting for Baker to prod us onto the holly place topic space but it seems he's tired of that.

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Old 02-18-2008, 03:42 AM   #33
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RE: Diesel engine hours

For folks that only need the corrosion and other additives in a warm climate usually 1/3 antifreez 2/3 distilled water will do the job , assuming its fairly fresh.

Neptune P2V-7 had battery start , although later ,when in a Ferry Squadron

(greatest duty in the world!! fly most ANYTHING in the inventory after an open book exam , and 3 TO & landings)

DA Book for the DC 3 had a ground windmill start method , with a second DC 3 in front , to provide the breeze.


In Da DC-3 (C-47) Book was the ONLY place I have ever seen with a book procedure for a one engine takeoff!

Guess the Jap hospitality would have folks really willing to try anything!

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:50 PM   #34
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RE: Diesel engine hours

FF,

Good grief Fred, can a DC3 actually take off on one engine? I had a low powered ultralight ( 9hp each ) and couldn't fly straight with one engine out and the other at WOT. Could'nt maintain either. I was an electronics technition in VP-31 at North Is San Deigo. Spent lots of time in P2s. We had Martin P5s as well.

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Old 02-19-2008, 03:56 AM   #35
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RE: Diesel engine hours

can a DC3 actually take off on one engine?

Don't have enough time (bout 50 hours) in it to say for sure but I think so.

Since Da Book had a procedure someone must have got away with it a number of times.

There is power aplenty , the hassle would be enough rudder volume to keep it lined up as the tail comes up.

Might tale a LOT of runway , not the usual field on a Pacific Island, being overrun.

As a guess it was probably only done during the Berlin airlift where there was NO room on the ground for dead birds , and a long paved runway , and no cargo , and tiny fuel load to get off with.

In my era (60's ) the USN did still have a biplane squadron, at Canoe U to train future cadets to become bus drivers for the airline . It was an Amphibian known as the Yellow Peril!

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