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Old 08-13-2014, 12:59 PM   #21
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9,000 gallons a month qualify? That was my usage in June and July.
That is exactly why I pointed it out to you. I had a feeling your usage was above average.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:06 PM   #22
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MMO

This stuff is cheap and it is good at dissolving carbon deposits. What is in it? 99% of it is two types of paint thinner: heavy naptha and stoddard solvent. <1% of it is ortho-dichlorobenzene. Though the dichlorobenzene is a very good carbon/sludge dissolver, they don't use very much of it because it is expensive and the chlorine atoms make hydrochloric acid in your engine. This in itself isn't an issue because all API approved motor oils contain a high amount of calcium-based detergents which neutralize the acid. It will shorten the lifespan of your oil though.

The product has been around a long time and has been very successful. The only trouble with it is the way it is marketed. It comes off as snake oil. This isn't the case. The product works, but with some caveats. It thins out your oil a little bit. A whole quart of it will thin your oil a whole grade (5W30 becomes 5W20). Also, it's not a very good lubricator so you only want to use it occasionally. Using it every oil change will definately increase wear and tear. You probably don't want to put it in a truck while you plan to do some heavy towing with it. And if you have a lot of sludge use it with caution. You don't want to use too much too fast and get chunks of sludge floating around in the oil lodging into worse places than it was before. Don't get it on your hands because it will absorb in your skin.

I saw lubrication testing that showed MMO was the worse. I used it and went through an IP faster than any other product.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:10 PM   #23
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Re condensation I remove water from my fuel tanks by inserting a 1/8" copper tube bent to the ideal shape to reach the lowest corner on the fuel tanks. I hook up the copper tube to a little electric oil changing pump and pump out about a quart of fuel into a see through plastic jug. Sometimes I get a considerable amount of water. Once I got over a gallon and had to pump again. But usually I've got to look very carefully to see a tiny drop of water or so.

The large amounts of water come from leaks at my filler cap. Need to address that. It's a fault in the Willard design. The decks slant downward alongside the cabin as you go fwd so the water collects at the steps where you go up on the fwd deck. No drains either. Dumb design.

But water from condensation is next to zero.

I've never had water in my Racor filter.

If I wanted to get rid of my 2+ year old fuel how would I do it? I don't plan to but ...... sell it for $1 a gallon? What could be wrong w it if it looks fine?
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:15 PM   #24
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From what I understand diesel doesn't go bad. I saw a boat that sat in a slip for 17 years and never had the engines run go to Alaska on old fuel. That proved it to me.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:16 PM   #25
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If your fuel looks clean don't use additives. Use it up this season and store mostly empty so you will have fresh fuel for next season.
The good thing about running with low fuel is that it will be cycled through the filters faster than if tank is full.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:18 PM   #26
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Since new she has had 1 gallon of Marvel Mystery oil added to every 100 gallons of diesel. When the injector pump was overhauled (2200 hrs) the tech said it was the cleanest he had ever seen. I do not know what the mystery is in Marvel but I am not gonna change, seems to work.
The mystery is why anybody would pour it in their fuel.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTech...itive_test.pdf

http://cdn.teachersource.com/downloa...NV-105MSDS.pdf

Or at least save yourself some money and just buy mineral oil and add some solvent to it then dump it in your tanks.
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:19 PM   #27
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The mystery is why anybody would pour it in their fuel.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTech...itive_test.pdf

http://cdn.teachersource.com/downloa...NV-105MSDS.pdf

Or at least save yourself some money and just buy mineral spirits and add some oil to it then dump it in your tanks.


That test said exactly what I've been saying. Soy best MMO worse
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Old 08-13-2014, 01:26 PM   #28
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If the ip was so clean why did it fail?
Perhaps lack of lubrication?
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:05 PM   #29
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According to lubricity studies done by the over the road trucking industry, Marvel Mystery Oil is one of the worst things one can put in diesel fuel. It actually reduces lubricity, and the studies show by how much. This and other evaluations of a large number of lubricity additives were posted on the Grand Banks owner forum a number of years ago, and may have been posted here, too.

When we bought our boat and were trying to learn everything we could about the care and feeding of our two FL120s, we were cautioned not to use MMO by acquaintances in the marine diesel industry. After reading the additive studies, we're glad we followed that advice.

I believe FF once posted the ingredients of MMO to this forum a long time ago. As I recall it was diesel fuel with red dye and wintergreen aromatics added.

In reading about MMO, I recall it was developed to prevent gummed-up carburetors in tanks and trucks during WWII, which all ran on gasoline. it was never intended to be a lubricity additive for diesel fuel. So far as I can tell, the whole MMO thing has become a shade-tree mechanic's urban legend.

Bob Smith at American Diesel continues to promote the use of MMO in diesel fuel. He's a real expert on Lehman engines, given that he worked for them and was involved in many of their marination projects. But when it comes to MMO, I believe he is dispensing very bad advice.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:42 PM   #30
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According to lubricity studies done by the over the road trucking industry, Marvel Mystery Oil is one of the worst things one can put in diesel fuel. It actually reduces lubricity, and the studies show by how much. This and other evaluations of a large number of lubricity additives were posted on the Grand Banks owner forum a number of years ago, and may have been posted here, too.

Yeah I think I somebody post a link to that test and and the MSDS for MMO just recently.
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Old 08-13-2014, 04:35 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.Bill11 View Post
The mystery is why anybody would pour it in their fuel.

http://www.jatonkam35s.com/DeuceTech...itive_test.pdf

http://cdn.teachersource.com/downloa...NV-105MSDS.pdf

Or at least save yourself some money and just buy mineral oil and add some solvent to it then dump it in your tanks.
I read the test, and I believe in science and scientist. If people in their field show me, I will believe them. Scientist just told me that Marvel Mystery Oil is BULLSHI+. I believe them. Anybody want to buy a gallon of MMO...make ya a deal.
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Old 08-13-2014, 05:23 PM   #32
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Marin,
When I worked at a large machine shop where the machinists regularly went outside the shop on jobs most wouldn't go without MMO. They used it as a cutting oil. Use any other oil and there were problems like the tool getting hot and smoking a lot. Or the tool would chatter and leave a rough surface. Or the tool would become dull prematurely. I've never used it for anything.

I would think two cycle lube oil would make a reasonable lubricant for diesel fuel pumps. Must be a reason I've never heard of it being used for that. Inexpensive and readily available. Anybody have an opinion or knowledge on that. Notice I mentioned opinion first. Better chance of success.
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Old 08-13-2014, 06:08 PM   #33
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There are times and places for even some of the bad products as long as people know the limitations. You want to break up gunk in a neglected tank or engine, that's one thing.

Maybe the best example I would give is unscrupulous people trying to see an old junker car putting sawdust in the oil or transmission fluid. I even saw an Andy Griffith episode once with that. It supposedly will quieten the sounds being made for 10 or 20 miles.

So something might help get through an immediate problem and yet be very bad for long term use.
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Old 08-13-2014, 09:56 PM   #34
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A number of years ago a good friend loaned me his copy of Nigel Calder's book on diesel engines. In it he explains and illustrates the principles of a jerk-injection engine, which is what a Ford Lehman 120 is.

In this type of engine, the injection plungers that send the shots of fuel to the cylinders are lubricated in their bores solely by the fuel they are pumping. The lube oil in the sump of the FL120s injection pump is there to lube the drive mechanism in the pump. It has nothing to do with lubing the injection plungers themselves.

The plungers and the walls of the bores they run in wear down over time. It's the nature of the beast. So the better the lubricity in the fuel, the better the plungers are lubed in their bores, and the slower the wear rate will be. Which means the longer the interval will be beween injection pump rebuilds, which are not cheap.

I have no idea if today's diesel fuel contains sufficient lubricity to minimize the plunger and bore wear in the injection pumps on our engines, I know that there are people who vehemently say there is, and people who just as vehemently say there isn't.

Logic tells me that when it comes to two pieces of metal rubbing against each other at high speed, the more the friction between them can be reduced, the less wear there will be. As long as a lubricity additive doesn't seriously screw up the ignition and burn characteristics of the fuel it's in, I don't see any problem with using it. Even if all it does is reduce the friction by just a wee, tiny bit, that's still a reduction and maybe our injection pumps will go that much longer before needing an overhaul.

My logic extends only to the jerk-injection diesels in our boat. What the lubricity situation is like in other types of diesels, or newer generations of diesels, I have no idea. We don't have them. The only diesels whose longevity we have a vested interest in are the two in our boat, and they were designed in the 1950s using the very latest 1950s technology and metallurgy.

So if a little slippery-juice in the fuel helps them out a bit, I'm all for it.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:48 AM   #35
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Marin, What you described is the same as my GMC diesel. The IP has to have lubrication from the fuel and my IP doesn't have an oil sump either.

This is why I tried every additive sold and I'm in Los Angeles so I pretty much have every additive available here on the shelves. What that test proved my own results proved and backed up their findings. What they didn't test was ATF and I saw that fail also.

My findings today is the ULSD, what we are buying now, is adequate. Buying any additive for lubricity isn't really needed and wasn't needed in the past. Red dye was sulfur diesel, then ULSD, It never was LSD where all the IP failures occurred. I was in the SCAMD where they experimented with the low sulfur first. There was a class action lawsuit that won and I was reimbursed 600.00 for my troubles from the state of CA.

Biobor would be needed in areas where you get lots of condensation build up in your tanks. I have my own formula for that and use a product that absorbs all water and doesn't contain alcohol so I don't use biobor because I never have standing water.

I say treat the problem at the start, not after it happens.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:03 AM   #36
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Red dyed diesel fuel. Some may not know why some diesel fuel is dyed red. It is NOT because it is different than any other No. 2 diesel fuel. Diesel fuel used in over-the-road vehicles is subject to a 24.4 cents/gallon Federal excise tax. Diesel fuel used in off-road vehicles (farm machinery, construction vehicles not driven on roads and not subject to registration) and for marine use is not subject to taxation. It is dyed red so that tax scofflaws who use it in on-road vehicles can be caught.

The fines for doing so are heavy. The penalty is $1,000 or $10/gallon, whichever is higher. The penalty for refusal to allow an inspection is $1,000. No doubt some folks take the chance using dyed diesel in their pickups. Know also that the dye can be detected long after many fill-ups.
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:02 PM   #37
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I get good results with Soltron... same basics as Startron. Read this very good report that Bill11 on post #9 linked. Tells a lot on best/worst additives.

Diesel Additives - Practical Sailor Article
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:32 PM   #38
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Diesel fuel used in off-road vehicles (farm machinery, construction vehicles not driven on roads and not subject to registration) and for marine use is not subject to [Federal] taxation.
Unfortunately, red-dye-diesel IS subject to state sales tax. Which in this state is pretty significant I'm sorry to say.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:52 PM   #39
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Unfortunately, red-dye-diesel IS subject to state sales tax. Which in this state is pretty significant I'm sorry to say.
Federal tax is 24.4 cents for diesel (18.4 for gas) and the average state tax is 31 cents for diesel (31.5 for gas).

Highest state sales tax on diesel is Indiana at 51.3 cents. Yes, I thought it would be California too. They are only 1.7 cents lower. Lowest is Alaska at 12.7 cents. Oklahoma is second lowest at 14 cents.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:07 AM   #40
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CA is 28 cents.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/pdf/l352.pdf
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