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Old 03-24-2014, 06:15 PM   #41
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Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:27 PM   #42
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Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?
Suspected previous issues. That often impacts how we respond to things. It's true with all of us.

As to what they might use to survey, the NOAA standard is sonar, either side scan or Multibeam. LIDAR is also used. Now, not assuming that's what their surveyor would use. Here is a document from the International Association of Dredging Companies.

http://www.iadc-dredging.com/ul/cms/...-surveying.pdf

Certainly it should be more than just using poles and more than just using recreational depth sounders. Most often I suspect it's a combination of a top grade depth sounder and physical checks by poling. But it may involve more advanced equipment.

And is it essentially a high end depth finder that professionals might use? Yes, but higher end than any of us have on our boats.
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:44 PM   #43
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There is professional grade equipment to do depth surveys. The sounders on a typical trawler are not that accurate when in shallows. Take a sounding line and check depth against your sonar sounder. Most are a foot or two off, some by more.

I know mine is off a couple. I know if I "lose the blue line", I'm about to eat it!!!
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:06 PM   #44
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There is professional grade equipment to do depth surveys. The sounders on a typical trawler are not that accurate when in shallows. Take a sounding line and check depth against your sonar sounder. Most are a foot or two off, some by more.

I know mine is off a couple. I know if I "lose the blue line", I'm about to eat it!!!
There may be a "keel offset" setting on your sounder or MFD. I've calibrated mine to within a few inches at 8' at my dock using a boat pole. That's about the lowest it gets.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:42 PM   #45
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The piece I linked to us not all that expensive and is designed for use on very small boats and shallow areas; the OP is just the kind of project. I've seen a few used around here; guy used one when I was buying some river front property and wanted to see how far out the dock would have to go. The Corps of Engineer's survey boats are docked right across from us in Morehead City and have similar, but even more sophisticated stuff than that.
You can get gear that interfaces to plotters for even less.

Crowdsourcing the Ocean Floor: How Mariners Can Gather Valuable Information for Better Decision-Making - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News

The Doyles use something like this for their surveys you see on the Cruiser's Net and their web site.

http://cruisersnet.net/wp-content/up...lemudriver.png
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:44 PM   #46
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I set my calibrated DS warning signal to 5'. With the sender approx 12" higher than deepest portion on twin screw planing hull boat's bottom (i.e. the props/rudders) that leaves me approx 4' underneath all items. Therefore, I then go very slowly when beginning to listen to the warning signal whenever entering fairly shallow water – the ongoing sound makes me keenly aware to keep close eye upon “bottom look” off fly bridge, as well as the readings on DS screen. If screen shows 4’ or just below I immediately go into reverse and back out at low idle till safe depth is reached.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:03 PM   #47
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I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...
New dock master? What happened to the old one that this thread is all about? Did you manage to get him fired?
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:04 PM   #48
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You Guys are too anal by far. Long ago I got used to the marina owner and dock hands totally ignoring all of my issues and concerns. They just want your cash and then more of the same with the minimal amount of aggravation. It usually feels like I work for them!!
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:22 PM   #49
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Collins Engineers - Channel Bottom Surveys

Channel Bottom Surveys

From laser-based automated hydrographic survey systems to recording fathometers to basic sounding pole or lead line surveys, Collins’ team of engineering and hydrographic professionals can provide a cost-effective, one-stop solution to hydrographic projects.

ACOE STANDARDS FOR LEAD LINE AND POLE BURIED IN HERE....

http://www.thsoa.org/pdf/IHO%20and%20USACE%20Hydrographic%20Standards%202.p df

and another....
Rice Associates - Experience - Project Experience: Lake Barton Bathymetric Survey

The County had determined the locations of eight hard line cross sections that were staked at each end by conventional means. The pre-dredging bathymetric survey was completed by conventional "push pole" technology frequently utilized by the Corps of Engineers to capture top and bottom of silt elevations. In addition to the eight County defined cross sections the entire lake bottom was surveyed based on a 25-foot or 50-foot grid depending on the zone in which the sections fell.

plenty more for the doubters....besides the actual experiences of a few here that have employed or worked directly with dredgers.....


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Old 03-24-2014, 10:26 PM   #50
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Lots of parrot droppings and red herrings above.
Ben, IMO, yours was well within the fair range of available responses. I suspect being actually present at the discussion helped, fine nuances don`t translate into print. He set out to get rid of you and your complaint asap, by dumping on the sounders we all rely on, and you rightly took him on. Don`t recriminate with yourself.
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:33 PM   #51
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Without re-quoting, your point is taken. I was too persnickety on the perceived tone. He did mention the surveyor. Instead of responding as I did, I probably should have said "ok, thanks" and left it.

There's other service issues with that marina that have flavored my opinion, so some of that memory was active when I wrote my response.

I'll introduce myself to the new dock master personally and take it from there...

By the way, what kind of equipment is used to survey depths professionally. If not a high end depth finder, then what?
I do also praise your reconsideration of your handling of the situation. I think you came into this thread questioning yourself. And in situations like this it's not whether one's response was within their rights but what serves one best in the long term. Long range having a good relationship with then dockmaster is beneficial. There are marinas I frequent in spite of a dockmaster or even an owner because I like the marina and the location. Often times I leave it to my wife to get on the good side of the unpleasant person. Suddenly she has them eating out of her hand when everyone else is in constant combat with them.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:04 AM   #52
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Lots of parrot droppings and red herrings above.
Well said! This thread has taken on a life of its own.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:21 AM   #53
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One point missed here is that the long-term relations in that marina are poor, at best. I stayed there for six months with Ben and the owners and operators of that marina are the most passive-aggressive personalities I have ever met. They don't care about renters at all. Too long of a story right now, but I have butted head with them several times and it caused us to leave.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:43 AM   #54
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One point missed here is that the long-term relations in that marina are poor, at best. I stayed there for six months with Ben and the owners and operators of that marina are the most passive-aggressive personalities I have ever met. They don't care about renters at all. Too long of a story right now, but I have butted head with them several times and it caused us to leave.
True, true. The rest of the story is more involved. Something is going on with that marina where they have slip owners captive and slip renters, such as myself, are not handled so well in spite of attempts to work with them. Another notable - no one can articulate why exactly, but the planned boat show for Oriental was unexpectedly and suddenly switched from that location to another marina.

One might call these leading indicators, of what exactly, is simply speculation. But seems if they lose activity, it is a downward trend.

To be completely fair though, the facilities are very nice and the hurricane protection is phenomenal. Good neighbors there as well.
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:53 PM   #55
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After now understanding that your communications with the dock master (new or old) were through e-mail, my opinion has changed.

E-mails are so impersonal that I think you definitely took it wrong(ly).
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:54 PM   #56
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True, true. The rest of the story is more involved. Something is going on with that marina where they have slip owners captive and slip renters, such as myself, are not handled so well in spite of attempts to work with them. Another notable - no one can articulate why exactly, but the planned boat show for Oriental was unexpectedly and suddenly switched from that location to another marina.

One might call these leading indicators, of what exactly, is simply speculation. But seems if they lose activity, it is a downward trend.

To be completely fair though, the facilities are very nice and the hurricane protection is phenomenal. Good neighbors there as well.
Marinas with slip owners are often interesting to watch. The real management is an owners association and those running things day to day are contractors often, employees other times. Regardless, very different than a marina owned by one person or company. Expenses fall back on the slip owners and typically the development company still owns a good many slips. A dockmaster finds themselves with many many bosses. While some of these run quite well, others have constant turnover and many problems. With most too the slip prices on resell have disappointed owners, especially while the developers still have slips to sell. I've looked at North Carolina Coastal Properties web site and followed sales. Slips that were once projected at $100,000 are selling for $39,900. Meanwhile the entity running the marina or the dockmaster is terribly limited in what they can do.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:05 PM   #57
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He is probably right with 80% sail most of even the smaller boats will draw more than you.

The complaints from 80% of the folks will be sure to be resolved, if they wish to hold their customers.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:53 PM   #58
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He is probably right with 80% sail most of even the smaller boats will draw more than you.

The complaints from 80% of the folks will be sure to be resolved, if they wish to hold their customers.
But in this situation it's also going to turn into ugly board and association meetings with one snide sniping at the other. One side wanting more dredging, the other side saying they don't want to pay for more for a few sail boats.

These situations are just like condo and homeowners associations. There is a term too in South Florida called "Condo Commandos". These are generally retired persons with plenty of time who constantly are wanting to run things and dictate to all condo owners and tenants. Same thing when they're in homeowners associations. And rest assured Boat Slip Condominiums or Dockominiums or whatever they're called in a particular area are as bad or worse. Everyone who purchased a slip was probably led to believe the value would appreciate, the marina would be incredibly well run and great service and amenities, and the maintenance fees would be small (as they are often a fixed small rate the first two or three years). Now, as a rental tenant, your issues rate far down their list in terms of priority even though rental income should be high on the list to protect the investment and generate cash.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:38 PM   #59
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But in this situation it's also going to turn into ugly board and association meetings with one snide sniping at the other. One side wanting more dredging, the other side saying they don't want to pay for more for a few sail boats.
Mouse farts are turning into mushroom clouds.

Not worth it for my one snarky email. I'll get drunk with the dock master and we'll find peace love and harmony. All is well.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:50 PM   #60
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Mouse farts are turning into mushroom clouds.

Not worth it for my one snarky email. I'll get drunk with the dock master and we'll find peace love and harmony. All is well.
I'm not referring to your matter turning it into a board fight. I'm just saying boards on these types of association setups tend to fight, period. You have a lot of slip owners pulling in many different directions. It's a business form that if filled with conflict and the dock master will likely end up very frustrated in his position. Every owner considers themselves his boss.
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