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Old 03-20-2014, 10:41 AM   #21
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The Everett marina on a regular bases dredges the marina entrance, the boat ramp when they replace/move docks around. The way they take down the high spots is using the push boat prop wash. There are places at extreme low tide, -12 ft, that deep keel boat still touch. The Eagle goes a ground at our dock, but I figure it help keep the bottom clean.

I like deep keel sail boats as they make great bottom finders!
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Old 03-20-2014, 11:44 AM   #22
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Yeah…that was probably a bit of an over-reaction. Probably left them quite perplexed as to what particular bee got in your bonnet.
I'm pretty much a data-driven person. So my interpretation of helpfulness (free information) might be perceived as intrusive (unsolicited advice/nagging) if the dock-master has been hearing it all month. Good call.

Plus, something is going on with my marina - they had a boat show scheduled there for April and it suddenly switched locations to the marina across town with little forward notice. Someone pissed in somebody's cornflakes presumably. Shortly after that switch, the dredging was announced.

So, one could infer...?

The link shows the approach channel that has been dredged. In the field of view to the left is the marina where the boat show is switched to. Maybe I picked at a scab wound with my dock master...

Pecan Cam, Pecan Grove Marina Channel Web Cam | TownDock.net, Oriental, NC
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Old 03-20-2014, 10:00 PM   #23
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Heck... let the blow hole owners worry about it. It's them who will get grounded first in areas to shallow. They usually have more to worry about than power boaters do anyway. This can be another on their post it board.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:41 AM   #24
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Twice I've hired dredgers to dig under my docks. Two of the most frustrating experiences in my life. Both bucket/barge types. One was a flat out thief, the other a crackhead. No wonder the OP's dockmaster was a bit testy.

And yes, bucket dredging leaves a mix of divits and hills. Depth sounder concentrates on the hills. So yes, a sounder is not a good way to assess. Also tend to be inaccurate in shallows. I used pvc pipe with a flange glued to end, dipped it to sound from a jon boat. Big high spots got just a regular pvc pipe as a flag. Dredger then supposed to go fix those spots. I ended up firing both before they got all the spots. As other's posted, humps tend to level out.

Just remembering those episodes has got me tweaked!!
Really, I guess it's been blind luck that running in shallow water I've not run aground. Before I get shotgunned, I HAVE run aground before, just not in my current boat.
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:46 PM   #25
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What you guys might be missing with sounders ....depending on the water depth and the cone the transducer puts out (first object encountered is the recorded depth even if most of the cone is deeper) there can be errors...granted not much...I wouldn't think enough in 8 feet of water...especially if the ducer tends to record the shallowest depth within the cone...

I have been on scene of dozens of dredging operations talking with the surveyors, dredge opertors and job supers.... and the most often used tool is a marked pole.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #26
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One of our yacht club members owns a floating suction dredge and uses it periodically to deepen the marina. As an aside, a slip hugger refused to move his boat out of the slip to allow the dredge access for two hours. Club response: move or get evicted. He moved the boat.
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:35 PM   #27
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What you guys might be missing with sounders ....depending on the water depth and the cone the transducer puts out (first object encountered is the recorded depth even if most of the cone is deeper) there can be errors...granted not much...I wouldn't think enough in 8 feet of water...especially if the ducer tends to record the shallowest depth within the cone...

I have been on scene of dozens of dredging operations talking with the surveyors, dredge opertors and job supers.... and the most often used tool is a marked pole.
Yeah right. A pole is a great way to miss that shallow spot. Why that's just what you want, not to pick up the shallowest spot in what is a very narrow cone at depths< 20 ft (?!?!). A real survey for a channel like the OPs is done with equipment like this, someone paying to have a dredge job will demand it:

http://www.rosslaboratories.com/pdf/...2010.15.12.pdf

At the very very very least, someone will slowly run up and down there with a sounder a few times. The pole may be all right around someone's private dock, but doesn't pass muster for larger projects. A good sounder with a modern transducer can tell false bottoms (grass, plant life, stirred up sand) from hard bottoms.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:02 PM   #28
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Depth sounder should do just fine. Been there, done that.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:57 PM   #29
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Ask the Dockmaster for his survey certification results. Bet you don`t get em.
My guess: there is friction between him and the dredge contractor, you hit a tender spot, he went into denial mode saying "depth sounders are crap" to undermine valid concern. I like your, " Must tell Garmin their sounders are not worth a pinch of shit" response. Keep a good eye on your sounder.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:52 PM   #30
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Yeah right. A pole is a great way to miss that shallow spot. Why that's just what you want, not to pick up the shallowest spot in what is a very narrow cone at depths< 20 ft (?!?!). A real survey for a channel like the OPs is done with equipment like this, someone paying to have a dredge job will demand it:

http://www.rosslaboratories.com/pdf/...2010.15.12.pdf

At the very very very least, someone will slowly run up and down there with a sounder a few times. The pole may be all right around someone's private dock, but doesn't pass muster for larger projects. A good sounder with a modern transducer can tell false bottoms (grass, plant life, stirred up sand) from hard bottoms.
Ill stand by what I see a lot every year...no matter what you dredge up on the internet..... around little projects like marinas...the marked pole is the tool of choice as Ski posted as well....

OK...I'll admit my area might be limited in terms of geography but I'll bet it isn't much different in places of the country where things are even a little more backward than from where I am....based on the piling and bulkhead jobs I've noticed.

Like the backhoe rigged dredger I just passed in Myrtle Beach that I saw doing a marina project when I went through in December...he would be lucky to have used a tape measure on his marked pole based on the equipment I saw.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:12 PM   #31
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Ill stand by what I see a lot every year...no matter what you dredge up on the internet..... around little projects like marinas...the marked pole is the tool of choice as Ski posted as well.... OK...I'll admit my area might be limited in terms of geography but I'll bet it isn't much different in places of the country where things are even a little more backward than from where I am....based on the piling and bulkhead jobs I've noticed.
Ive also seen a marked pole used vastly. We would mark the spuds on our dredges to get an idea of depths before and after dredging.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:24 AM   #32
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Tell me if I took this wrong...

My marina is dredging our entrance channel. The population is comprised of roughly 20% power, 80% sail craft. I have a trawler. I advised the dock-master of several variable depth readings I found 3 days ago between 4 foot and 8 foot. I recommended he should check real well before releasing the dredge operator from the work, because the channel seemed inconsistent.

And I was told:
Transducers are not an effective way to measure the depth of any channel. We have a surveyor that will certify the depth. I see you have a power boat, I doubt you will ever have an issue going anywhere.

I found that a might bit high-falutin', but nevertheless replied that I was contacting the Garmin Corporation to advise them their transducers are ineffective, and I would be removing my 3. What I did not include is that my Garmin 740s includes a log of my depth history with GPS coordinates.

I don't doubt that they will check the depths, but found his reply a bit condescending. Am I making mushroom clouds from mouse farts?
I believe you did take this wrong. Since you are not (directly) paying for the dredging and you were not placed in charge of it, your best action would have been to do or say nothing. If your boat hit bottom after the dredging was complete that would have been the time to complain.

While the dock master's reply to you could have been worded better, he is basically telling you that he will take care of it and doesn't need your help.

Your reply to him about contacting Garmin to "advise them their transducers are ineffective ..................." was inappropriate and surely cemented in his mind the notion that he was dealing with a nut case.

As long as you keep your boat at this marina and this person is the dock master you're going to have to deal with him. You would help this relationship by apologizing to him saying you had a bad day had been drinking, etc.
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:42 AM   #33
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Your reply to him about contacting Garmin to "advise them their transducers are ineffective ..................." was inappropriate and surely cemented in his mind the notion that he was dealing with a nut case.

As long as you keep your boat at this marina and this person is the dock master you're going to have to deal with him. You would help this relationship by apologizing to him saying you had a bad day had been drinking, etc.
Lighten up, Francis.

Here's the deal: I PAY to keep my boat there. I have a large personal and financial stake in the condition of the marina. I have EVERY RIGHT to question the maintenance at the marina, with wry humor or not.

Granted, there are many who do not appreciate my attempts at humor, but if the dock-master cannot answer my simple questions without being condescending, I have the right to take my business elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking either. If I offended him then I'd certainly apologize. But lying about my condition at the time of asking would not be included.

On a service note, if the dock-master is unable to handle simple questions, is he really fit to manage several million dollars in other peoples' real estate?

Sorry Ron, though I appreciate and respect your concern for the dock-master's feelings, your point is way off target.
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Old 03-24-2014, 12:26 PM   #34
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You asked, I answered.
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Old 03-24-2014, 01:53 PM   #35
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You asked, I answered.
In fairness to the dock master, it was a direct email at that point. I wasn't questioning his competence or attention span, just let him know the readings I got because they looked curiously inconsistent.

I have a pretty modern set up with a depth/temp log charts. The entrance channel is a roller coaster from 4' to 8', but no matter to me as I draft 4 feet. I honestly felt his reply was condescending or flippant, so I responded in kind. Fair to call me a wise ass.

I'll accept that.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:45 PM   #36
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Well since you probably only draw 3.5ft-4ft, I would wait for the sailboats with deep keels to complain!!
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:02 PM   #37
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Ill stand by what I see a lot every year...no matter what you dredge up on the internet..... around little projects like marinas...the marked pole is the tool of choice as Ski posted as well....

OK...I'll admit my area might be limited in terms of geography but I'll bet it isn't much different in places of the country where things are even a little more backward than from where I am....based on the piling and bulkhead jobs I've noticed.

Like the backhoe rigged dredger I just passed in Myrtle Beach that I saw doing a marina project when I went through in December...he would be lucky to have used a tape measure on his marked pole based on the equipment I saw.
This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead!
Did you bother to look at the channel in question??

http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecan...g?x=1395691219
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Old 03-24-2014, 04:28 PM   #38
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This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead! Did you bother to look at the channel in question?? http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecan...g?x=1395691219
Looking from the photo the most efficient way to dredge that channel would be a backhoe on a barge.
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:54 PM   #39
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This is not a little project cleaning up a few slips or sludge along a bulkhead!
Did you bother to look at the channel in question??

http://towndock.net/ipecancam/1pecan...g?x=1395691219
yep...little project by possibly "Joe's dredging".....just like many I have worked over the last 11 years....

The last 3 jobs that were done on a shoestring were multi-million projects that dug out multiple canals and channels leading to them...still done by little outfits with Neanderthal methods....plus multiple marinas along the way. Far bigger projects than the one in the link.
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:00 PM   #40
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Lighten up, Francis.

Here's the deal: I PAY to keep my boat there. I have a large personal and financial stake in the condition of the marina. I have EVERY RIGHT to question the maintenance at the marina, with wry humor or not.

Granted, there are many who do not appreciate my attempts at humor, but if the dock-master cannot answer my simple questions without being condescending, I have the right to take my business elsewhere. That doesn't mean I'll stop asking either. If I offended him then I'd certainly apologize.
Have you apologized then? As to your rights to question, they are limited. While his response was perhaps not the best worded, you only chose to escalate the situation. It's a job in progress.

As to taking your business elsewhere, you certainly have that right. Are you planning to do so?

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But lying about my condition at the time of asking would not be included.
I agree that would be total insanity. In fact, saying you were drunk would be the quickest way to make you look even worse.

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On a service note, if the dock-master is unable to handle simple questions, is he really fit to manage several million dollars in other peoples' real estate?
He handled the question. You just don't like how he did. As to managing peoples' real estate, a dockmaster's level of responsibility and authority is very limited generally. He offered opinion as to the imperfection of depth sounders. He offered information though to answer your concerns by saying they did have a surveyor who would certify the depth. That is all the answer you needed to be given, that one sentence. Then he stated that as owner of a powerboat he didn't feel you'd ever have an issue. That doesn't seem unreasonable either.

What did you expect? Him to put you in charge of the project? The only thing I would have suggested he done differently is leave out the first sentence and instead simply say, "Thank you for your interest." Then told you the rest.

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Sorry Ron, though I appreciate and respect your concern for the dock-master's feelings, your point is way off target.
Ron's point isn't off target. It's an opinion. You posted here asking for opinions. You asked if you took it "wrongly". Ron's opinion obviously is that you could have handled it better. Let's see, dockmaster reacts in a manner you didn't feel appropriate so you react in an inappropriate manner. Hardly seems the way to build a productive dialogue or a relationship with the dockmaster.

Have the two of you squabbled before?

So back to your basic question, did you take it wrongly? My opinion, you did. You overreacted to the point about depth sounders and missed the true answer he gave which was that a surveyor would be checking off on the work.
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