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Old 10-03-2015, 05:35 PM   #41
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To define your AC/DC setup you need to predict your energy uses while sailing and while on anchor. I have made an OpenOffice Spreadsheet for my Bavaria 49 before setting off on an Atlantic crossing in 2012.

The sheet ONLY works correct in OpenOffice Calc.

Remove the .txt at the end of the filename.
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File Type: txt Maria Aleida Energy balance 12V.ods.txt (64.6 KB, 22 views)
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:46 PM   #42
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Thank you all.
It seems the further we go here the more it looks like it is not a good setup after all. Is a proper assessment done by your everyday surveyor or do we need an opinion from a marine electrics guy?

Part of the problem is I don't know what the specs are telling me:
5 KW Engine driven alternator is being questioned, is that an impossible setup?

Scott:
Charger to small for the house set, will take forever to charge running gen-set, go up to 100amp charger better would be an inverter/charger if you can swing it.
Inverter/charger 2500A Trace; is this different? And what is the Xantrex TC 40+ 110V, then?

Jim:
It may be just fine for several years. Or...factor that in to your offer.

Yes, that's the idea. If I sort out that I need to sink 8-10 grand into this system and 20-30 or more into updating electronics, it does affect the valuation. Is 8 years still a good life expectancy for well maintained batteries?
I think the TC is a 40 amp charger, not enough by a long way for house but I would use it for system batts.

The Trice is indeed what I was talking about, 100amp would still take a while, that is a large house bank. Do you really need that much?

Load calculation would tell.

Wind or solar any help?

Canada, solar could be a bit of a challenge.


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Old 10-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #43
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If a goal is to remove the starting batteries, what about replacing the starting batteries with supercaps and charge with the house batteries?

KAPower Supercapacitors - Ultracapacitors

they have two sets of connectors, one from the battery banks, and one set to the starting solenoids and starters.

They last nearly forever, save size and weight, and can charge up from nearly dead to charge in minutes, and give you another chance to start engines. You don't need a battery isolator from the main bank to the super cap since it only sips power to recharge the cap using it's internal controller.

The only downside is cost. Last time I looked into it, they were about $1000 each.

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Old 10-03-2015, 11:51 PM   #44
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So, like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with this system. I would not replace anything as long as it is working. Consider a more efficient wiring scheme for the GC batteries, an ACR or combiner ($100+) and a battery monitor (about $200). With all of that done I could cruise that boat indefinitely.
David, thank you...
Is the Voltage Sensitive Relay Module in the pic the same thing a the ACR you talk about?
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Old 10-04-2015, 12:00 AM   #45
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I have never heard of a 5kw engine-driven alternator, at least not in a recreational context, but my ignorance doesn't mean much. I have seen "high amperage" engine driven alternators (Balmar, for example), but those only go up to 160 amps (2kw), as I recall.
I have a 200a Charles and I think that's about the most you can get with a single belt. I also have never heard of a 400a alternator on a recreational boat, and fitting it to a FL120 seems extremely unlikely. And then there's the issue of regulating the charge into those flooded batteries. I think something got scrambled here.


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Old 10-04-2015, 07:30 AM   #46
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David, thank you...
Is the Voltage Sensitive Relay Module in the pic the same thing a the ACR you talk about?
Actually, you have two battery combining devices. The Echo Charger (top of pic) takes voltage from the house bank and when it is above 13.5 it supplies 15 amps to the starting battery. That is one of my favorite types of "combiners" as it limits amperage and doesn't need big wire or fuse (except at the starting battery end).

The lower one, the voltage sensitive relay does the same thing. It looks your house batteries are split into two banks- the aux on the top (maybe for a bow thruster??) and probably the main on the bottom- can't read the label. This device ties the two battery systems together once the voltage on one gets up to 13.5. There is no current limiting and that it why it is installed with big wire.

Also your ABYC aware surveyor won't like all of the exposed DC+ terminals. I personally think of this standard as like the one that mandates belt covers on boat engines- reduces liability but keeps the knowledgeable owner from seeing what is going on. Also depends on if those devices are out of the way of any routine access.

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Old 10-04-2015, 12:22 PM   #47
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Yeah, rather have a still down there.
I thought that's what you meant but wanted to be sure you hadn't spotted something else in the picture, I missed.
Still, now you're talking!
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:34 PM   #48
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Read through Nigel Calder's Book Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual. I've read the electrical sections and some of it is actually starting to sink in. But it's a journey...it really is!
Thanks Jim, I've got a copy on hold at the library.

I was going to save Calder reading for rainy days but I hear we may not have many.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:40 PM   #49
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Actually, you have two battery combining devices. The Echo Charger (top of pic) takes voltage from the house bank and when it is above 13.5 it supplies 15 amps to the starting battery. That is one of my favorite types of "combiners" as it limits amperage and doesn't need big wire or fuse (except at the starting battery end).

The lower one, the voltage sensitive relay does the same thing. It looks your house batteries are split into two banks- the aux on the top (maybe for a bow thruster??) and probably the main on the bottom- can't read the label. This device ties the two battery systems together once the voltage on one gets up to 13.5. There is no current limiting and that it why it is installed with big wire.
No thruster but does have 2 freezers, washer/dryer, AC, 50 gal HW tank and a 25GPH water maker.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:49 PM   #50
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Is this a decent DC setup?

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Thanks Jim, I've got a copy on hold at the library.

I was going to save Calder reading for rainy days but I hear we may not have many.

It's an expensive book. I've got a Kindle copy and I DON'T like it in that format. It's too hard to find sections and I find I go back and forth between different topics. Also figures and tables are difficult to reference with the associated text. That said, it's easier to search the kindle edition.

50 gallon hot water tank??!!

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Old 10-04-2015, 02:31 PM   #51
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No thruster but does have 2 freezers, washer/dryer, AC, 50 gal HW tank and a 25GPH water maker.
I suspect that all of those are AC driven appliances. So no clue what the "aux power bus" does.

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Old 10-04-2015, 02:53 PM   #52
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I suspect that all of those are AC driven appliances. So no clue what the "aux power bus" does.



David

...and not likely on the inverter, or shouldn't be if the AC panel is properly set up.


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Old 10-04-2015, 07:06 PM   #53
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50 gallon hot water tank??!!
Yeah, he tows it behind on a small scow. Wife likes long showers.

I think he confused the HW with holding when he wrote the specs.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:11 AM   #54
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...but remember the rule of thumb is 10% of your battery bank capacity is the largest size of charger you should use.
I thought charger amp output should be at least 10% of the amp size of bank to be charged, ie the minimum. Is 10% really the max?
I`d agree the Owner is likely charging that massive bank while docked, before the 3 day cruise. Is there room for some serious solar somewhere on the boat? Maybe it`s not so hard to maintain the bank once the serious charging is done pre trip.
You don`t get a set up like that without owner interest, input, and quite some determination. It has to be an interesting boat. Obviously you`ll want to check battery age/condition with that investment in battery.
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Old 10-05-2015, 03:34 AM   #55
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Bruce

My understanding is that with wet cells there is a maximum, not minimum, charging rate. The suggested maximum charging rate is 25% of the battery bank.

It is most likely that the 2500 watt Trace inverter / charger has a 100 amp charging rate. Add that to the 40 amp rate of the separate charger the OP is still way below the maximum suggested rate. If the inverter/charger is not being used as a charger the charge rate would be impractical (too low) for a boat not usually moored in a marina.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:05 AM   #56
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If there is going to be a noisemaker upgrade , a pair of belts on the front to run a really powerful alt (with a good marine V regulator) will charge the house faster than any other method.

A cheap truck heavy duty unit can be 135A for under $150 or so, with external regulator wiring as std.
Has anyone done this to a 8.5KW Kohler genset? The existing pulley and belt setup would not support 135 amp alternator, it would slip due to load. I would be interested if someone has figured out what parts to change out.
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Old 10-05-2015, 12:45 PM   #57
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All of this did not address solar. I have a hardtop with 6 85 watt panels, 10 golf cart batteries. When the sun is shining I have enough charge to make the night pushing 3 Engle refers. If overcast might use the generator for an hour at the end of the day, again in the morning but as a general rule, no. If I want hot water, microwave and so forth, then genset.

Works for me great, and it seems your system is similar less the solar panels. Panels are getting really cheap, I saw a projection that soon as low as $.55 a watt.
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:04 PM   #58
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I mentioned solar, however he is in Canada so a bunch less output, in fact over 50% less then us Florida folks. He would need more then double the number that we do regarding panels.

Given enough real-estate very workable of course.

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