I just hope everyone is as happy with their hull amd the speeds it can go as I am with mine.
YUP!
Cruising speed...
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YUP!
Nomad Willy
Guru
Chris,
What you're talking about is hard to do. I'm going to throw out some guesses but bear in mind I'm no NA and have very little experience w bigger boats.
Controling pitch (attitude) I think will be the key to the wide speed range. A light narrow boat w engine and fuel weight amidships or slightly fwd. Perhaps a fishform hull (w max beam a bit fwd of amidships w a long tapered aft section. Large trim tabs that have great effect deployed at shallow angles. Think of it as a small airplane w a long tapered tail w landing gear and weight fwd. some of the old wood "speed boats" were like that. A long tapered stern w a fairly small transom. Keep thinking light and probably only a mild deadrise .. not constant like a "deep V". An old Mainship 34 hull has too much warp to the deadrise so not that much but somewhat similar. More like an old Chris Craft w a little bit more deadrise. Perhaps tripple screw w the center screw an outboard. I do'nt like them but a cat would have very long narrow hulls. An advantage for a wide speed range.
That's just what comes to mind off the top of my head.
What you're talking about is hard to do. I'm going to throw out some guesses but bear in mind I'm no NA and have very little experience w bigger boats.
Controling pitch (attitude) I think will be the key to the wide speed range. A light narrow boat w engine and fuel weight amidships or slightly fwd. Perhaps a fishform hull (w max beam a bit fwd of amidships w a long tapered aft section. Large trim tabs that have great effect deployed at shallow angles. Think of it as a small airplane w a long tapered tail w landing gear and weight fwd. some of the old wood "speed boats" were like that. A long tapered stern w a fairly small transom. Keep thinking light and probably only a mild deadrise .. not constant like a "deep V". An old Mainship 34 hull has too much warp to the deadrise so not that much but somewhat similar. More like an old Chris Craft w a little bit more deadrise. Perhaps tripple screw w the center screw an outboard. I do'nt like them but a cat would have very long narrow hulls. An advantage for a wide speed range.
That's just what comes to mind off the top of my head.
ranger58sb
Guru
Sure, but does it illustrate that it's sorta difficult to pick a boat that will "do everything" if designs in the marketplace are so limited most will only do one thing?
If you were able to pick a boat that met all those conditions... would it be a "wrong" boat because a) it can run (almost) equally well at more than one speed range, and b) you want it to be able to do that?
-Chris
A "speed-use and "power/fuel-need" analogy on three Hull Types.
This analogy is meant to specifically focus on residential [fun time] boating in relatively protected, gentle condition waters. In other words... how the majority of power boat owners use their pleasure boats. Many types of other attributes than as mentioned here can come into play for each hull type. I've already read many and of course still look forward to additional input on all the other hull type attributes... as well as comments on my analogy.
1. Full Displacement
FD Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at considerably low fuel use - but is not designed to travel above hull speed without multi/multi X power and fuel use. Even with much greater power and fuel use the FD hull simply can not go much faster than hull speed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots.
2. Semi Displacement/Semi Planing
SD/SP Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at reasonably low fuel use - can also travel somewhat above hull speed with some X power and fuel use. But this type hull design usually can not get onto full plane and is therefore limited to approximately 2X hull speed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots.
2. Full Planing
FP Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at reasonably low fuel use. Can also travel way above hull speed (depending on power height in place... 3, 4, 5 or even more times above hull speed is possible) at increased level of X power and fuel use needed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots. Interesting item about FP hull is that once up on full plane the fuel use per miles traveled tends to level out and not increase proportionally with speed rate being gained... due to FP hull on plane as speed increases reduces more and more of hull area as wetted surface.
All N' All:
FD hull - most economical overall - but, slow cruise to get places.
SD/SP hull - somewhat economical overall - but, can travel a bit faster speed than FD
FP hull - least economical overall - but, can get places quickly
End result:
At 5 knots each type hull becomes somewhat similar regarding fuel economy [depending on load weight and power source].
At just below hull speed all three types hulls remain somewhat similar in fuel economy with FD doing better than SD/SP and FP hulls.
At over hull speed [before reaching full plane] SD/SP hull a bit more economical than FP - SD is by design completely out of this and the next mentioned speed rate.
On full plane and for example 17 knots to 35 knots (could even be a higher top end if powered applicably) the FP hull is the only one for really quick movement... at added fuel cost.
Conclusion: What hull do you prefer as your pleasure boat choice - You make the call.
BTW: Considering an averaged 100 to 200 annual hours of "Pleasure Boat" engine-run-time... Fuel cost [for any hull type] on an "annual basis of overall boat-use-cost" is a relatively minor %age!
This analogy is meant to specifically focus on residential [fun time] boating in relatively protected, gentle condition waters. In other words... how the majority of power boat owners use their pleasure boats. Many types of other attributes than as mentioned here can come into play for each hull type. I've already read many and of course still look forward to additional input on all the other hull type attributes... as well as comments on my analogy.
1. Full Displacement
FD Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at considerably low fuel use - but is not designed to travel above hull speed without multi/multi X power and fuel use. Even with much greater power and fuel use the FD hull simply can not go much faster than hull speed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots.
2. Semi Displacement/Semi Planing
SD/SP Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at reasonably low fuel use - can also travel somewhat above hull speed with some X power and fuel use. But this type hull design usually can not get onto full plane and is therefore limited to approximately 2X hull speed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots.
2. Full Planing
FP Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at reasonably low fuel use. Can also travel way above hull speed (depending on power height in place... 3, 4, 5 or even more times above hull speed is possible) at increased level of X power and fuel use needed. An economical traveling speed is somewhat just below hull speed. Most economical speed is usually around 5 knots. Interesting item about FP hull is that once up on full plane the fuel use per miles traveled tends to level out and not increase proportionally with speed rate being gained... due to FP hull on plane as speed increases reduces more and more of hull area as wetted surface.
All N' All:
FD hull - most economical overall - but, slow cruise to get places.
SD/SP hull - somewhat economical overall - but, can travel a bit faster speed than FD
FP hull - least economical overall - but, can get places quickly
End result:
At 5 knots each type hull becomes somewhat similar regarding fuel economy [depending on load weight and power source].
At just below hull speed all three types hulls remain somewhat similar in fuel economy with FD doing better than SD/SP and FP hulls.
At over hull speed [before reaching full plane] SD/SP hull a bit more economical than FP - SD is by design completely out of this and the next mentioned speed rate.
On full plane and for example 17 knots to 35 knots (could even be a higher top end if powered applicably) the FP hull is the only one for really quick movement... at added fuel cost.
Conclusion: What hull do you prefer as your pleasure boat choice - You make the call.
BTW: Considering an averaged 100 to 200 annual hours of "Pleasure Boat" engine-run-time... Fuel cost [for any hull type] on an "annual basis of overall boat-use-cost" is a relatively minor %age!
Nomad Willy
Guru
I'm wondering why you go at any speed other than 16 to 18 knots. Why?
Art wrote;
"FD Hull: Can easily travel from 0 knots to hull speed or any place in between at considerably low fuel use - but is not designed to travel above hull speed without multi/multi X power and fuel use."
For the umteenth time FD boats don't go hull speed. That's the realm of SD boats. Way too fast for FD. If that's not so it's not FD. If "it"goes hull speed w any reasonable grace and economy it's a SD boat.
No need to go below hull speed on a SD. Hull speed may be or likely is it's best speed.
Planing hulls are not economical at any speed. And near hump speed they are almost worthless. Of course nobody runs there unless they want to do some wakeboarding.
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In the boat collision thread, most would say 16 to
18 knows at night would be too fast...
Wifey B: Clearly wrong boat. We all have the wrong boat.
I'd say too fast but then guess he had to since it was designed to go fast.
Now example for Nomad. This was in our loop boat. It's capable of 32 knots, cruise is 26-28 knot.
First portion of trip was a quick delivery run from FLL to NYC. 1286 nm with the stops we made, 58 hours, mostly run at 26-28 knots, average over 22 knots, 7 days.
Canals. From NYC to Oswego. Slow, slow and slower. No zoom zoom. 313 nm, 45 hours over 13 days, average speed 7 knots. There are locks, locks and more locks. Speed zones of 5 mph and 10 mph. That's right. You ever tried to run 4.3 and 8.7 knots?
The Great Lakes. Lots of running at cruise of 26-28 got us from point to point faster, let us cover much larger areas. Slow some for sightseeing and slow in and out of marinas and bays. Total 5838 nm, 317 hours, 18.4 knots average.
South to the TN River. More locks, narrow and winding areas. Lots of commercial traffic in places. We ran all speeds. In some areas we slowed to run just the speed of the tows in front of us, follow them a while rather than passing. Some we ran 26-28, some 10-12. Total 960 nm., 71 hours, average of 13.5 knots.
All same boat. All tied to waterways and conditions. Fast when it was easy and in open areas, slower in tighter areas, really slow in restricted areas.
Now, I'm already prepared for you to not understand because it's not what you do. But our boat was designed to do all. We did all. We enjoyed all. Fun, fun, fun. Boating in the real world. No theory.
Eric
You do not well understand the ramifications of engine use and resulting fuel use on well designed, planning hull, 21K loaded lbs., twin screw boat. As well, it seems you never read [or simply can't recall
] the numerous times I've posted our FP boat's just below hull speed at 6.5 to 7 knots running both engines, and 4.5 to 5 knots running one engine, and 16 to 17 knot planning speed fuel use per miles traveled. So.... I'll again post:1) 4.5 to 5 knots running one engine fuel use = approx. 3 nmpg
2) 6.5 to 7 knots running both engines fuel use = approx. 2 nmpg
3) 16 to 17 knots on full plane = approx. 1 nmpg
Now, I know your FD boat gets better economy than #'s 1 and 2. However you can't touch #3 speed. And, at 100 to 200 annual engine hour use the fuel cost as overall boat-bucks is not too much weight against my budget!
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ranger58sb
Guru
"Because" is all the reason I need to decide our boat is right for us
But we often go slow partly because sightseeing along the way is easier at slower speeds, partly because I'm not comfortable blasting around at 20 knots in the dark, partly so we can enjoy conversation-level discussion, partly because that gives us time to make piloting decisions, etc etc etc.
Oh, and because sometimes I don't mind saving a buck or two on fuel, if I'm not in any hurry to arrive somewhere...
My point has been about illuminating many boaters do that... so selecting their right boat is guided by that. If they want a variable speed range, an only-slow boat or an only-fast boat would be wrong... for them.
-Chris
Nomad Willy
Guru
Chris,
Looks like I've offended you. Was'nt the intent. And I know I offended a lot of others. But the discussion went the way of critical content that people did'nt like.
Many said whatever makes you happy. Going 6 knots all the time is not perfect for us but going 12 is too expensive unless we downsize seriously. I am amazed how seldom I have the need or notion to go faster. Almost never happens.
Also I'm a student of hull design and running a hull at a speed it was not designed to do is a bit like chalk the wrong way on a blackboard. To have a GB 36 twin running at a little less than 7 knots seems nuts to me when a single would be much much better at doing that. Sure the twin can go considerably faster but after going 6 knots for years and almost never wanting to go faster I ca'nt relate to it. To me the need others have to go faster is just imaginary. The rapids are running too fast now but of course they will soon be slack. Ideally I'd throttle up to 15 knots and blast through. If one was a planner they'd know when slack water was and plan accordingly. I'm not a planer so I wait or anchor up and run the rapid the next day.
Part of the reason I'm OK w one speed is because I'm older. Things like speed and needing this or that NOW are far less. Being retired is a huge part of that I'm sure. Being rational and objective probably comes w age (to an extent) but I remember when I was younger I did'nt like speed as much as most others.
There is a perfect speed, a good cruising speed range, acceptable speeds and whatever the boat will do within the realm of costs, both monetarily and for comfort ect ect.
So I'm basically an idealist and gravitate toward ideal things. But others are not and I was seen as one to be trying to fit others into my mould. Most of it was just being an idealist but to some extent I probably was pushing my ideas off on others. Sorry.
Looks like I've offended you. Was'nt the intent. And I know I offended a lot of others. But the discussion went the way of critical content that people did'nt like.
Many said whatever makes you happy. Going 6 knots all the time is not perfect for us but going 12 is too expensive unless we downsize seriously. I am amazed how seldom I have the need or notion to go faster. Almost never happens.
Also I'm a student of hull design and running a hull at a speed it was not designed to do is a bit like chalk the wrong way on a blackboard. To have a GB 36 twin running at a little less than 7 knots seems nuts to me when a single would be much much better at doing that. Sure the twin can go considerably faster but after going 6 knots for years and almost never wanting to go faster I ca'nt relate to it. To me the need others have to go faster is just imaginary. The rapids are running too fast now but of course they will soon be slack. Ideally I'd throttle up to 15 knots and blast through. If one was a planner they'd know when slack water was and plan accordingly. I'm not a planer so I wait or anchor up and run the rapid the next day.
Part of the reason I'm OK w one speed is because I'm older. Things like speed and needing this or that NOW are far less. Being retired is a huge part of that I'm sure. Being rational and objective probably comes w age (to an extent) but I remember when I was younger I did'nt like speed as much as most others.
There is a perfect speed, a good cruising speed range, acceptable speeds and whatever the boat will do within the realm of costs, both monetarily and for comfort ect ect.
So I'm basically an idealist and gravitate toward ideal things. But others are not and I was seen as one to be trying to fit others into my mould. Most of it was just being an idealist but to some extent I probably was pushing my ideas off on others. Sorry.
psneeld
Guru
Well there's no way you could offend me....
And I too am a student of hull design and an operator of many different types.
I just strongly disagree with your speed theory.
Otherwise, wouldn't ALL FD hulls meet one formula?...and so on for the other types...
and what about the clowns that design cats, tris, surface effect ships, hydrofoils....etc..etc...
Surely trying all those designs was a waste when clearly just a few designs could cover fast and slow.
And I too am a student of hull design and an operator of many different types.
I just strongly disagree with your speed theory.
Otherwise, wouldn't ALL FD hulls meet one formula?...and so on for the other types...
and what about the clowns that design cats, tris, surface effect ships, hydrofoils....etc..etc...
Surely trying all those designs was a waste when clearly just a few designs could cover fast and slow.
Guess Linda and I are odd bods
Some times we like to eek along at 5 knots minus running one engine on our Tolly
Other times we like doing 7 knots [just under mathematical hull speed of 7.58 knots] with the twins both running
Then again we at times enjoy cruising on full plane at 17 knots.
Going WOT thrills us too at 22/23 knots
Then there's our Crestliner runabout... gentle cruise at 25 knots is a joy for us both. Top end in the 38/39 knot range can be great fun too.
We like all speeds in each boat, greatly depending on our mood for the moment... Guess we're simply odd bods!
Some times we like to eek along at 5 knots minus running one engine on our Tolly
Other times we like doing 7 knots [just under mathematical hull speed of 7.58 knots] with the twins both running
Then again we at times enjoy cruising on full plane at 17 knots.
Going WOT thrills us too at 22/23 knots
Then there's our Crestliner runabout... gentle cruise at 25 knots is a joy for us both. Top end in the 38/39 knot range can be great fun too.
We like all speeds in each boat, greatly depending on our mood for the moment... Guess we're simply odd bods!
That curve is max load curve. I doubt that you are operating on that curve. More likely something similar to the prop curve at the bottom. You dont know what the toroe is along the prop curve.
It doesn't mean others don't look for ideal. It's just their ideal is different than yours and you try to say yours is the only ideal.
Wifey B: Obviously we're with you and sometime I want a really fast boat. 60 knots would be about right but might settle for slightly less.
We love cruising at different speeds based on where we are and what our plans are. Our looping required a bit of all of it. 4.3 knots to 32 knots.
We don't eek
along on one engine though. For 4.3 knots all we could do was touch it a bit then let off. Wifey B: Obviously we're with you and sometime I want a really fast boat. 60 knots would be about right but might settle for slightly less.
We love cruising at different speeds based on where we are and what our plans are. Our looping required a bit of all of it. 4.3 knots to 32 knots.
We don't eek
Nomad Willy
Guru
BandB,
Actually not.
What you and others are think'in about is about you and your whims. What I'm talking about is what a boat is designed for. Design wise a boat is matched and aligned to a specific speed range or in some cases speed ranges. All the whims of however many owners are'nt going to change the engine thrust or hull shape or displacement of a boat. And liking to run a 25 knot boat at 7 knots dos'nt make it a good speed for the boat. One can run a boat at whatever speed. It's their boat and only they will suffer if there's any suffering to be done.
But as I said nobody's going to change a boat by wanting to go a different speed. And as several to many have pointed out one can go whatever speed but if a boat was designed for 10 knots usually going 6 or 14 would indicate that this person has the wrong boat.
So I'm talking about boats .. not owners or operators. But I am talking the act of running them "improperly" and if enough of this running out of the propper range is done having a more suitable boat would obviously be better.
Al
Guru
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Just came in from the first "What in the Hell is broke" trial run on a perfectly flat water day with the sun as bright as a dollar and the moutains capped to the timber line in fresh deep power snow.
What a Spring break!!!:
Radar -no power,
: other than that all systems up and running. Speaking of running, small tides-1000 RPM-4.5 Knots 1450 RPM- 5.8-6 knots. 1600 RPM- 6.4-6.8 knots 1700 RPM-6.9-7.3 knots. Max RPM WOT 2150 RPM. Settled at the 1600 RPM for the three hour run
.
Happy!
Al-Ketchikan
What a Spring break!!!:
Radar -no power,
: other than that all systems up and running. Speaking of running, small tides-1000 RPM-4.5 Knots 1450 RPM- 5.8-6 knots. 1600 RPM- 6.4-6.8 knots 1700 RPM-6.9-7.3 knots. Max RPM WOT 2150 RPM. Settled at the 1600 RPM for the three hour run.Happy!
Al-Ketchikan
Just came in from the first "What in the Hell is broke" trial run on a perfectly flat water day with the sun as bright as a dollar and the moutains capped to the timber line in fresh deep power snow.
What a Spring break!!!:
Radar -no power,
Happy!
Al-Ketchikan
Yea Al!
windled
Veteran Member
When delivering a Hatteras 61 from Venezuela to Mexico, via the Panama Canal, we wanted speed, but also wanted to conserve fuel, so we consulted with the engine manufacturer to determine the ideal cruising rpm for the engines and then just ran at that, so that we consumed the least fuel possible, while not damaging the engines. I think it was about 10 knots, but it was a while ago. Key is the principle of running at ideal lowest rpm for best fuel consumption. It was a very enjoyable couple of months.
I'll leave it at I've heard you argue this many times and I don't and will never agree with you. You're so incredibly fixated on looking at it your way and that any other way is wrong. Boats are not designed just to be boats, they are designed for users.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy
But as I said nobody's going to change a boat by wanting to go a different speed. And as several to many have pointed out one can go whatever speed but if a boat was designed for 10 knots usually going 6 or 14 would indicate that this person has the wrong boat.
So I'm talking about boats .. not owners or operators. But I am talking the act of running them "improperly" and if enough of this running out of the proper range is done having a more suitable boat would obviously be better.
I believe Eric is somewhat correct with his feelings in that what he says lends itself only to FD and maybe even SD hulls [remember he is speaking only about boat hull, not owners]. Unfortunately it appears he has not spent too much time actually piloting a well designed planning hull larger boat and experiencing that such a boat hull can travel well through water at nearly all its speed ranges. About the only speed that would not be too comfortable/much-fun to linger on too long is when the hull is just breaking onto plane. That sequence only lasts for a moment for well designed and correctly powered boats.
Eric - I recommend you get some time on a really well designed planning hull boat while its experienced owner takes you through at least a whole day of different speed ranges in different levels of sea conditions.
Try It - You'll Like IT!!
Originally Posted by Nomad Willy
But as I said nobody's going to change a boat by wanting to go a different speed. And as several to many have pointed out one can go whatever speed but if a boat was designed for 10 knots usually going 6 or 14 would indicate that this person has the wrong boat.
So I'm talking about boats .. not owners or operators. But I am talking the act of running them "improperly" and if enough of this running out of the proper range is done having a more suitable boat would obviously be better.
I believe Eric is somewhat correct with his feelings in that what he says lends itself only to FD and maybe even SD hulls [remember he is speaking only about boat hull, not owners]. Unfortunately it appears he has not spent too much time actually piloting a well designed planning hull larger boat and experiencing that such a boat hull can travel well through water at nearly all its speed ranges. About the only speed that would not be too comfortable/much-fun to linger on too long is when the hull is just breaking onto plane. That sequence only lasts for a moment for well designed and correctly powered boats.
Eric - I recommend you get some time on a really well designed planning hull boat while its experienced owner takes you through at least a whole day of different speed ranges in different levels of sea conditions.
Try It - You'll Like IT!!
Nomad Willy
Guru
I do like it Art,
I've only had two slow boats in my life excluding canoes and kayaks. Kayak was my forst boat. Built it as a kit from Deadham Mass when I was twelve. Canvas covered w hundreds of copper tacks. Aircraft dope (not included in the kit) and paint. Was very light.
My powerboats before trawlering were all outboards 10 to 28'. I have five outboards (engines) now and several boats. Remember I was "manyboats" until PeterB talked me into returning to my original name.
Personally a planing boat has two speeds, hull speed comming and going from a harbor and just above hump speed. I run my 18' deep V (Winner) the shy side of 20 knots. See no point in going faster. If it was a lot flatter on the bottom I'd run her closer to 15.
And you're very right I do'nt have much experience in bigger boats. A lot of experience arround bigger boats but very little underway. Would really like a long skinny lobsterboat w OB power .. twins.
So my Willard is quite far off the mark from my ideal boat.
I've only had two slow boats in my life excluding canoes and kayaks. Kayak was my forst boat. Built it as a kit from Deadham Mass when I was twelve. Canvas covered w hundreds of copper tacks. Aircraft dope (not included in the kit) and paint. Was very light.
My powerboats before trawlering were all outboards 10 to 28'. I have five outboards (engines) now and several boats. Remember I was "manyboats" until PeterB talked me into returning to my original name.
Personally a planing boat has two speeds, hull speed comming and going from a harbor and just above hump speed. I run my 18' deep V (Winner) the shy side of 20 knots. See no point in going faster. If it was a lot flatter on the bottom I'd run her closer to 15.
And you're very right I do'nt have much experience in bigger boats. A lot of experience arround bigger boats but very little underway. Would really like a long skinny lobsterboat w OB power .. twins.
So my Willard is quite far off the mark from my ideal boat.
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Eric - In respect and honesty from reading your posts for years now... I believe your Willard is the boat for you at this stage in life. More the boat for you than you realize. It's a real nice boat. You compliment each other well. Keep on keepen on!
Art
ranger58sb
Guru
Not to worry, no offense taken, I'm just continuing to suggest that boats don't use people, it's the other way around.
Some boats are designed with a more limited speed range... because the designer wasn't good enough to make the boat as versatile as some need.
Heh... just kidding a bit there... but actually physics, available technology, and cost does tend to limit what designers can come up with and be versatile enough for the many of us in the marketplace who really do want to travel at the appropriate speed du jour... which may or may not fit within the parameters offered by some specific boats. (Wrong boats, for us.)
That probably means our ideal isn't the same as your ideal. Our proper isn't the same as your proper. A right boat does what we want, not just what the designer could figure out. The designer is never (yet) part of our crew, so doesn't get a vote on today's journey... or the speeds at which we travel.
And your right boat isn't our right boat. No reason it should be.
-Chris
Pleasure boat fun is similar to bed room fun! We all like to have fun the way we personally like to have fun! If the "partner" in bedroom or "partner" [ie. boat] in water performs the way we want - We Smile BIG!
