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Old 06-05-2016, 10:46 AM   #21
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About 90 seconds before the crash the lady says " Why are those people running?" Experience!
That's the best part of the video. Up until then they have no idea that anything is wrong and seem to think they are just watching a normal docking.

To other points, based on the hull markings and the prop wash, it looks like the boat has twin bow thrusters and both were operating throughout the video, presumably at full tilt.

As we all know, a side wind can be hell when it comes to docking. Clearly these guys made the wrong call looking back on things, but in their defense, several people who were there reported 25kt winds, gusting to 45kts. Docking in 25kt winds is one thing, and 45kts something different altogether. They probably caught more than their fair share of those 45kt winds at the worst time. In hind sight, tug assist would have prevented the problem, but we all have trouble predicting the future exactly.

And BTW, does a Pilot actually operate the boat, or do they guide the crew? I thought they guided the crew, and it's still up to them to correctly operate the boat per the Pilot's instructions. I've only been in a pilot house once when a Pilot was on board and in command, and as I recall they never handled the boat, but maybe there are different customs? This was in another country.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:13 AM   #22
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Here is an interesting blog on how a pilot to a cruise ship works.

What Does the Pilot Do? | Holland America Blog

The Pilot is an adviser.

Pilots in Alaska, the Panama Canal, and other similar places do much the same.

Now, pilots in the Bahamas, in the canals of south Florida are different. They actually lead you and advise you without boarding the boat. Larger boats in the south Florida canals have a slightly different situation which is common in large boats in some other major ports of the world. They have pilot boats/tows, one in front, one behind, pulling and guiding the boat through.

The Master of the boat never relinquishes authority or responsibility in these situations.
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Old 06-05-2016, 02:45 PM   #23
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And BTW, does a Pilot actually operate the boat, or do they guide the crew?
A Puget Sound pilot came to talk to my yacht club and he stated quite unequivocally that he drove the boat down the Sound and, impressively, while taking it in and out of its berth. This included harrowing tales of docking large container ships with cross winds in narrow Tacoma channels.

Myself I can't imagine docking a huge ship I had never docked before in those sorts of conditions. That is real skill.
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Old 06-05-2016, 04:23 PM   #24
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Interesting, and seemingly contradictory responses. But the article that B&B referenced does talk about how the pilot may assume "conduct" of the vessel, but never takes over command which remains with the ships officers. I assume "conduct" in this context means taking the helm and other controls. I guess once you've docked one tanker you've docked them all :-)
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Old 06-05-2016, 04:50 PM   #25
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Remember the Bay Bridge Pilot

When the tanker ran into the Bay Bridge several years ago, it was being driven by its not too competent pilot and the captain was talking on the phone:

Pilot in Bay Bridge tanker collision has license suspended for 'misconduct' - San Jose Mercury News
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:06 PM   #26
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When the tanker ran into the Bay Bridge several years ago, it was being driven by its not too competent pilot and the captain was talking on the phone:

Pilot in Bay Bridge tanker collision has license suspended for 'misconduct' - San Jose Mercury News
Obviously the Pilot's License is the only one the Pilot Board can handle, but I'd hold the Captain even more at fault. The Pilot made a serious mistake. The Captain wasn't even paying attention, just ignoring his responsibility. Reminds one a bit of the captain of the Concordia.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:23 PM   #27
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Obviously the Pilot's License is the only one the Pilot Board can handle, but I'd hold the Captain even more at fault. The Pilot made a serious mistake. The Captain wasn't even paying attention, just ignoring his responsibility. Reminds one a bit of the captain of the Concordia.
I can't imagine that having a Pilot on board in any way relieves the Captain of ultimate responsibility for his ship.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:32 PM   #28
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My guess: If you where the captain that overruled the pilot your career would be in serious jeopardy. Someone mentioned up thread corporate likely told that captain to put that ship on the dock on schedule. Had he not he'd be packing his crap and finding another job. Captains being "in charge" is a romantic notion but the ships owners are much more involved in these days of sat phones.

Love to read Sailor of Fortune's take.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:36 PM   #29
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I can't imagine that having a Pilot on board in any way relieves the Captain of ultimate responsibility for his ship.
It doesn't.
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Old 06-05-2016, 05:42 PM   #30
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the ships owners are much more involved in these days of sat phones.

Love to read Sailor of Fortune's take.
I completely agree with assigning blame to ships owners, to business owners for actions of others that are either through their policies and practices or through them not maintaining proper control. I hate seeing companies disavowing the actions of employees when they either knew and encouraged or were negligent in not knowing. I would like to see TOTO held accountable and just one of many cases of business that bothers me is the Pilot Flying J deal and Jim Haslem is so far completely untouched. Now, if a captain clearly goes against policies and practices that have been made clear it's a different story.
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:03 PM   #31
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My guess: If you where the captain that overruled the pilot your career would be in serious jeopardy. Someone mentioned up thread corporate likely told that captain to put that ship on the dock on schedule. Had he not he'd be packing his crap and finding another job. Captains being "in charge" is a romantic notion but the ships owners are much more involved in these days of sat phones.

Love to read Sailor of Fortune's take.

Not at all. As others have said, the pilot is merely an advisor. The captain is in command, and has every right to overrule the pilot if he thinks he needs to. The pilot may be at the controls or shouting commands, but the captain is ultimately responsible for the vessel.

As far as management's control, I have no doubt that there are more armchair captains sitting in warm, dry offices now than ever before, but again, it's ultimately the master's discretion. The office can apply pressure, but the captain should know that it's his license, and his ass that's on the chopping block if something goes wrong.
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:06 PM   #32
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That's going to be a lot of paperwork.

I'm not an engineer, but I spend the occasional night in a Holiday Inn Express.... so to me it looks like those pilings are not designed to stop that.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:38 PM   #33
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San Francisco pilots earn on the order of half-million dollars a year and work every other week.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:50 PM   #34
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Oscar-I kind of thought that also, even though I haven't ever been in a Holiday Inn Express. When I saw them in the video, I kind of compared them to the pilings around the ferry terminals here in the PNW. The pilings there are backed with angled pilings to the rear and also have kind of a hydraulic "bumper" for the ferries to bump into. But then, the ferries are kind of expected to "bump" their way into the ferry landing dock.
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Old 06-05-2016, 09:38 PM   #35
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An hour or so after the "event" they had 2 tugs assist in moving the Celebrity Infinity from berth 3 to berth 2. The line to the tug on the bow broke..sounded like a gunshot.
Was a little more excitement and running around while they tried to get a larger line hooked up.
Eventually they got it moved.
They were welding the hole closed about an hour after it hit.

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Old 06-05-2016, 09:49 PM   #36
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Ships colliding with docks in windy conditions on our coast is nothing uncommon and usually the dock takes the worst of it. The Celebrity Infinity was quickly patched up and returned to scheduled, same day service.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/damaged-cruise-ship-returns-to-vancouver-1.2932086

"Conduct" in this sense is a difficult term to define and might even bring different meanings in different areas. I can only speak to the Canadian version which "generally" means the pilot is the top level navigator/advisor, whose directions, in mandatory pilotage areas, must be followed. Canadian pilots do not take the helm and the ships master is in command of ship and crew at all times. In fact, to my knowledge, which is limited and perhaps out of date in some instances, the only area where the pilot has full command of a vessel is in the Panama Canal.

In Canada, the master cannot relieve the pilot of his duties and if the master has issue with a pilot's direction, the only recourse is to safely weigh anchor, contact the authorities and request another pilot.

Pilotage itself, like so many other marine topics is fascinating, complex and becoming more so at a rapid pace. E navigation, language and vessel size are but three of the most emerging concerns of pilots and pilot authorities.

The US and Canadian west coast pose some of the most rigorous challenges anywhere; San Francisco Bar Pilots, Columbia River Pilots and Puget Sound Pilots all have very unique conditions and circumstances to deal with. Especially with the ever increasing length, width, air and water draft in areas not designed for or compatible with those changes.

Canada has 4 distinct areas; Atlantic, St Laurence, Great Lakes and Pacific, all with differing regulations and sub sections. All of which ads to interpretation confusion and difficulty of application. As regulations increase, so do interpretations and challenges to them. As commercial traffic increases, it becomes more difficult to find qualified pilots.

The Pacific Region (BC) with its 15,000 mile coastline is very unique. Pilots shifts are limited to 8 hours and 105 nautical miles so, with today's cruise ships having speeds of 20+ knots, we get into waivers and regulation grey areas. In BC, tankers transiting Second Narrows, Boundary Pass and Haro Strait, are required to have two pilots. The only time a pilot is permitted to leave the vessel is to pilot a vessel towing his assigned vessel. There are few instances where a pilotless vessel can enter BC waters.

BC pilots are required to know every detail of our coast by memory, including many uncharted hazards. They are also required, but not mandated, to know operational specifics such as rudder response, prior to boarding any vessel.

Also, BC has pioneered the use of helicopters for pilot transfers. This has greatly reduced pilot injuries and extended retirement age.

https://youtu.be/JAvjuhSmtsk
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:28 PM   #37
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It is my reflection during my career of cargo ship loading superintendent in the presents of a boarding pilot. (Alaska) Upon boarding the first act the pilot takes is the formality of having the Master sign the waiver relieving the pilot of any and all liability. The Master is in control even when the pilot is given to dock the vessel.

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Old 06-05-2016, 10:52 PM   #38
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Here are the Panama Canal Regulations

http://www.pancanal.com/eng/legal/re...erdo13-eng.pdf

Boats under 65' are not required to use a pilot.

Also many other rules but one in particular is that the Master must be on the bridge.

On larger boats, there are multiple pilots. I don't know exactly what they do on large commercial vessels. On our boat, when we passed through, he basically stood with the Master and directed her actions. He did not take the helm.

There are currently over 250 Pilots for the Panama Canal. Feed them well and you'll enjoy their company (Don't feed them right and you'll be paying for a boat to deliver food to them and that's very expensive). Our pilot seemed to enjoy sharing information on the canal and exactly what was going on all along the way. We had an easy and pleasant time. However, boats do sometimes get damaged during the process. The Canal will assume responsibility, and compensate, if it's not your operator error.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:54 PM   #39
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...

BC pilots are required to know every detail of our coast by memory, including many uncharted hazards. They are also required, but not mandated, to know operational specifics such as rudder response, prior to boarding any vessel.

Also, BC has pioneered the use of helicopters for pilot transfers. This has greatly reduced pilot injuries and extended retirement age.
...
BC pilot boat bringing pilot to board for inland passage:



Seems like all pilot boats approach a ship's port side.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:07 PM   #40
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after the 2005 Queen of Oak Bay accident in Horseshoe Bay, where instead of destroying the ferry terminal when she couldn't stop, she plowed through the adjacent marina, there was a lot of talk about the ability of the ferry docks to absorb excess energy. From one of the engineers involved, I learned that the ferry terminal structures are designed to stop the ships in their fleet from speeds of up to 3 knots, without damage. Those vessels weigh in the neighbourhood of 10,000 tons. To stop the cruise ships weighing 91000 tons (Wikipedia says so for the Celebrity Infinity) a whole lot more engineering has to go into construction of the docking structures. Otherwise, damage will certainly occur at far lower collision speeds, as is apparent from the video.
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