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Old 04-10-2015, 12:21 PM   #21
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Don't have a dog in this hunt, but at least Cat does support their products unlike Volvo, with the worst customer service in the boating industry.
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Old 04-10-2015, 12:28 PM   #22
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This thread took sides.

Those that are tradesmen defended it and the others didn't. My take is it's way overblown and they are fishing with that quote. Looking for a sucker to bite.

I was in the car business and we did free inspections daily as part of the business plan. We didn't expect every quote to become a job, it was a quote. That's how that works. If the shop told you they send techs out at 150.00 an hour billable the minute they leave the shop and ending upon return, that shop wouldn't get any business. Simple as that.

The best advice has been said but I will add this, DIY. It's your boat.
Just so we understand I am not defending the quote, or indicating it is excessive either. I haven't seen the quote.

What I was attempting to point out is that when you hire someone the entire time that they are not able to do something for someone else is and should be billable to you.

it is a common in my opinion misconception among boaters of "it would only take me XX hours to do the job."

What the boater generally leaves out of that is the inspection, work planning, chasing down parts, cleanup, etc...

Its only when you either do the work for a living or pay others to do work for a living that you gain an understanding of the actual hours it takes to get a particular job done.
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Old 04-10-2015, 12:45 PM   #23
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Just so we understand I am not defending the quote, or indicating it is excessive either. I haven't seen the quote.

What I was attempting to point out is that when you hire someone the entire time that they are not able to do something for someone else is and should be billable to you.

it is a common in my opinion misconception among boaters of "it would only take me XX hours to do the job."

What the boater generally leaves out of that is the inspection, work planning, chasing down parts, cleanup, etc...

Its only when you either do the work for a living or pay others to do work for a living that you gain an understanding of the actual hours it takes to get a particular job done.
Not to mention accessing the parts to be worked on. I've seen some boats with such poor engine access, I don't know how they work on them.
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:23 PM   #24
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I could see the cleaning of the coolers after a catastrophic mechanical failure or if there was a overheating issue. Personally I think the inline filters should take care of any contaminates.
Our service manual (Cummins engines) calls for scheduled removal and cleaning of after cooler, oil cooler, heat exchanger, etc. Anecdotal info from other owners suggests failure is not uncommon when owners ignore the service schedule.

Anecdotal info also suggests descaling products like Rydlyme, Barnacle Buster, Triton Marine, etc. do indeed show evidence of cleaning these systems (when recirculating outflow is witnessed)... which in turns suggests these systems do need to be cleaned. I doubt flushing with these would completely the need for periodic dismounting and cleaning, though.


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it is a common in my opinion misconception among boaters of "it would only take me XX hours to do the job."
I know enough to realize that generally means a tech could do it in at least half of XX hours.


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Not to mention accessing the parts to be worked on. I've seen some boats with such poor engine access, I don't know how they work on them.
Yes.

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Old 04-10-2015, 01:26 PM   #25
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It is my understanding Cat-Marine has hired a consulting company for their authorized dealers to educate them on the finer points of customer billing. This is a new area for Bendover & Takeit Consulting. They made their name in the Healthcare industry billing Medicare and Insurance Companies, previously known as Willie, Cheatum and Howe.
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:38 PM   #26
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Greetings,
Mr. hm. Well, at least you got a live body to do SOMETHING as ludicrous as it turned out to be. I've been making inquiries and contacts here in Ft. Lauderdale for the last 3 weeks attempting to find electricians and mechanics etc. and to date the only thing I've accomplished is a generator in the midst of servicing (started Wed. and I expect it may be done by NEXT Wed.) and a lot of "We'll be there tomorrow's" and "Oh yes, we'll call right back". Just for once I'd like someone to say "Can't help you, too busy or not interested." What I need is a good general all around technician who will work for $XX/hr and be here when he/she says they will and can actually get some work done. OK, rant off.
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:38 PM   #27
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Our service manual (Cummins engines) calls for scheduled removal and cleaning of after cooler, oil cooler, heat exchanger, etc. Anecdotal info from other owners suggests failure is not uncommon when owners ignore the service schedule.

Anecdotal info also suggests descaling products like Rydlyme, Barnacle Buster, Triton Marine, etc. do indeed show evidence of cleaning these systems (when recirculating outflow is witnessed)... which in turns suggests these systems do need to be cleaned. I doubt flushing with these would completely the need for periodic dismounting and cleaning, though.




I know enough to realize that generally means a tech could do it in at least half of XX hours.




Yes.

-Chris
I just went through that process on my Cummins QSC. The estimate was bad enough, I'm still waiting on the final damages.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:22 PM   #28
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Final bill from Cummins was $4300.00

This included removing and cleaning the aftercooler, heat exchanger, oil,fuel, and transmission cooler. New thermostat, new impeller, new fuel filters, and zincs on a Cummins QSC 8.3. Also included borescoping the exhaust elbow for corrosion. Engine access is excellent and the Cummins office is 1/4 mile from my boat.

Also included fuel filters, zinc and impeller on my genset.

Glad I only have one motor.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:30 PM   #29
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There may be another option with the quote.

Maybe they don't want the work.

I used to get exorbitant quotes from vendors that didn't want or couldn't do the work at the specified time. But they fulfilled the bid process with a quote.

A bit fishing, a bit rejection.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:48 PM   #30
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I disagree. While that estimate for a radiator cap replacement is ridiculous, CAT makes a good engine. And you can get service anywhere in the world.

If you think you pay through the nose for CATs, don't even bother looking at MTUs or MANs.

There are no cheap modern diesels from what I see today.
i was delivering a 70 ft lazzar with mtus and the fresh water pump was 5000$
AND THE ALTERNATOR was 2300$ and labor ws 150$ hr and took a day and a half to do. BIG BUCKS
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:54 PM   #31
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Not to mention accessing the parts to be worked on. I've seen some boats with such poor engine access, I don't know how they work on them.
Very true. When the large generator was repositioned in our engine room when the previous owner had the original fuel tanks replaced with new tanks in a different configuration, one side of the generator ended up hard against the rear bulkhead. When the starter motor failed it took our marine electrics specialist three hours to remove it and as much time to replace it. This is a job that probably would have taken 15 minutes had the generator been sitting on the shop.floor or in a position on the boat that gave ready access.
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Old 04-10-2015, 03:24 PM   #32
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What I need is a good general all around technician who will work for $XX/hr and be here when he/she says they will and can actually get some work done. OK, rant off.

Well then you need a CAT technician. Problem is the price is typically $XXX/hr and never $XX/hr. The rest of your requirements have always been satisfied by my local CAT service department.

I wish my boat was diesel powered just so I could pay through the nose so the CAT guy to do the work. You're lucky someone started working on your generator.
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Old 04-10-2015, 03:37 PM   #33
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We have Cats, 3208T/As. Love them. The Admiral says to me all the time: I am thankful you know how to work on things on the boat! I tell her I can't afford to send her to the nearby street corner, so I am forced to do my own work. Admiral warns me of the hidden cement tennis shoes on board that are my perfect size!!
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Old 04-10-2015, 04:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
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I just went through that process on my Cummins QSC. The estimate was bad enough, I'm still waiting on the final damages.
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Final bill from Cummins was $4300.00

This included removing and cleaning the aftercooler, heat exchanger, oil,fuel, and transmission cooler. New thermostat, new impeller, new fuel filters, and zincs on a Cummins QSC 8.3. Also included borescoping the exhaust elbow for corrosion. Engine access is excellent and the Cummins office is 1/4 mile from my boat.

Also included fuel filters, zinc and impeller on my genset.

Glad I only have one motor.

Argh!

Was that after a failure of some sort? Or simply the cost of a scheduled maintenance?

I know it'd be XX hours to get all that stuff off, XX hours to put it all back on... no matter how good access is... and not counting the actual cleaning part. And depending on whether hoses actually cooperate or not.

Labor mounts up at $100+/hour... so I've been doing all the various grunt work that I can. Saving jobs for the onsite Cummins tech that require either more knowledge, skill, or tools than I have.

With respect to the OP, I wonder if the quote included some guesstimates about access time. I know I can change my starboard oil filter in about 10 minutes. The port side takes up to a couple hours, depending. And that's just one filter.

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Old 04-10-2015, 04:58 PM   #35
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Scheduled maintenance. I'm starting my fifth summer with the boat. Luckily, a QSC doesn't have hoses, it has stainless steel pipes that come off easily. I expect to do the aftercooler again in 3 years. Probably won't need to do the other coolers at that time so it should be cheaper. When you are dealing with aftercoolers, a failure could mean a new motor. If there is one part not to skimp on maintenance for, its the aftercooler
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Old 04-10-2015, 05:03 PM   #36
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Scheduled maintenance. I'm starting my fifth summer with the boat. Luckily, a QSC doesn't have hoses, it has stainless steel pipes that come off easily. I expect to do the aftercooler again in 3 years. Probably won't need to do the other coolers at that time so it should be cheaper. When you are dealing with aftercoolers, a failure could mean a new motor. If there is one part not to skimp on maintenance for, its the aftercooler

Woof! Not chump change. Labor around $3000-32000?

Yep, I've heard that about the aftercoolers, including from our onsite tech. In fact, I'm about to do an en-engine flush of all those systems (Rydlyme) for good measure, because I'm not scheduled for another aftercooler cleaning for another year (but also because the heat exchangers could probably use some love in the meantime).

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Old 04-10-2015, 05:24 PM   #37
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Labor was $3300. Next year I have the first valve adjustment coming up. Shouldn't be nearly as high. I like the Rydlyme treatment, too bad it won't take care of an aftercooler.
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Old 04-10-2015, 05:55 PM   #38
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The total for both engines, which are very well maintained was in excess of $13,000 !

Yup - big engines cost big bucks to maintain.

This is where the real cost of running a big semi-fast boat is felt. Many people only consider the cost of fuelling them.
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Old 04-10-2015, 06:17 PM   #39
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It took me 8 full hours a couple of weeks ago to remove my macerator pump.

Another 4 hours to figure out a better place to put it and to complete the job.

The pump was $200

The labor in my case was free but what if I was paying a boatyard to do the work???

During my refit I spent over $150K in parts and labor on my boat. I read every invoice with detailed description of the task acomplished and the hours to do that task. I never once questioned the boatyard because I know how long it takes to do things on a boat.

I also know that like myself, the boatyard technicians get paid for a full days work. That includes all the hours figuring things out, running for parts, cleaning up, and even writing up the invoices to bill the customer. I'd also bet that every time I called the boat yard and discussed a job with a tech, I was billed for that as well.

Just a FYI...

I am a DIY type of guy, both at home and on my boat. I paid for a major refit of my boat because I knew full well that I didn't have the time to do the work. I wanted to use the boat, not have to re-fit it.
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Old 04-10-2015, 06:20 PM   #40
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Yeah, that was no doubt a tough job. Now let's talk about a radiator cap that was very small part of a big job. This is the $250 aspirin at the hospital.
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