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Old 11-05-2010, 10:45 AM   #21
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

I just got a different slip yesterday and I think I'll go down and move the boat today.
Buck up? * Yea** ... I think I'll try backing in this time. I like to to get the bow into the wind (from the SE). The fwd cabin takes the weather better than the stern** ..mostly because of the teak door that dosn't fit quite right.
Phil Fill,
Yup** ..if I had your boat I'd get another thruster too.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:24 AM   #22
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Counteracting prop walk

Marin:
What was the name or job description of the guys who walked barges thru tunnels in the UK? I seem to remember you mentioning it or posting a picture. Thanks.
Mike

-- Edited by Gulf Comanche on Friday 5th of November 2010 11:24:44 AM
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:48 AM   #23
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Counteracting prop walk

I don't know what the men themselves were called but the practice was called "legging." The men would lie on boards on the the boat or placed on top of the loads and walk along the tunnel sides and ceiling. While the boat was being legged through the tunnel the horse would be led across the hill to the tunnel mouth at the other end.

Given the tunneling technology of the late 1700s and early 1800s when the canal system was built, the tunnels were made just barely wide and high enough to accommodate the boats. A few of the last tunnels built incorporated a towpath for the horse but these are rare. Once boats became self-powered they either ran through the tunnels under their own power or were pulled through in "trains" by a tug. This last practice was sometimes used in the really long tunnels where exhaust fumes were a problem.* Today you take your boat through under it's own power.* With the exception of a few steam powered narrowboats in the late 1800s (which were not efficient) and a few early motorboats that were gas powered, self-propelled narrowboats have always been diesel or semi-diesel powered.

Here is a photo I pulled off of Getty Images of a boat being legged, and a shot I took on one of our canal trips showing the entrance to a typical tunnel.* Tunnel entrances, bridge arches, and the ends of the lock gate beams were always painted white to make them visible at night.* Today while I don't believe night running is illegal none of the hire boat companies permit their clients to move a boat after dark.* But in the working days of the canals boats often ran at night to stay on schedule.




-- Edited by Marin on Friday 5th of November 2010 12:01:54 PM
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Old 11-05-2010, 12:04 PM   #24
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Thanks. I found a website that has some re-enactments of legging.
http://www.blisworth.org.uk/images/Walks-Legging.htm
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Old 11-05-2010, 04:56 PM   #25
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Well, if we're doing tunnel pictures...
Top of the Canal du Nivernais (2008)
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Old 11-05-2010, 10:41 PM   #26
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Pardon me for saying so, but those of you that write of a stern thruster OBVIOUSLY have never had one because it is BY FAR a better tool for backing a single-screw. Especially with the problems that are well documented here about an under-ruddered boat.

The benefits are almost as good when going forward, but there are a few things a bow thruster can do slightly better. But think about it, the boat already steers from the stern. All the thruster does is enhance that maneuverability. To me... A bow thruster is just for correcting mistakes you made at the stern.

Now, making sternway, when the ONLY "control surfaces" you have are now in front of you (assuming you face the stern like I do when backing), would you not want greater control over those? It's like a rudder which a switch. A bowthruster when backing up is like putting steering control on a trailer you are towing... better yet... any of you that have ever driven a forklift know what I am talking about. A stern thruster is like giving it front-wheel drive. It doesn't matter what direction the stern wants to go, a few little bumps of the old sterny thrust and you are right back straight again. The bow just follows right along without a care in the world.

Would I like a bow thruster? Yes, but I'll never be without a stern thruster on a boat again. Having both would just give me the ability to show-off a little, but only having a stern thruster is a VERY useful and powerful tool.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:05 PM   #27
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Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:

But think about it, the boat already steers from the stern. All the thruster does is enhance that maneuverability. To me... A bow thruster is just for correcting mistakes you made at the stern.
I'm not going to buy into that one.* A boat steers from the stern as you say.* So what you can't do is move the bow sideways without moving the stern.* You can point the bow another direction but what you're actually doing is*moving is the stern the opposite direction as you know. The bow stays more or less where it is--- you're just swinging the boat around it.

There are plenty of situations where what you want to do is move the bow sideways and NOT move the stern when you do so.* The rudder, prop, or stern thruster's not gonna do that for you.* And based on my boating experience, the times I would like to move the bow*sideways*and keep the stern where it is far outweigh the times when I've wanted to move the stern more or faster than I could with the rudder and prop.

Single or twin, you*can always move the stern sideways with the rudder(s) and thrust.* If you get a sense of the timing and the boat's inertia, you can do this without actually moving the boat forward (or backwards).* One term for it is back-and-fill.

But there is no way, no-how, that you can move the bow sidways without moving the stern anywhere unless you have a bow thruster.

The bow thruster doesn't "correct for mistakes you make at the stern," it allows you to do things that are impossible to do without one.

I'm not saying a stern thruster is useless.* For people who have to deal with situations where they can't use back and fill, or simply cant get the hang of it, then a stern thruster can save a lot of gelcoat.* But in terms of usefulness in the widest number of situations,*the bow thruster* is where it's at in my opinion.

And judging by the huge number of boats with bow thrusters and the relatively tiny number of boats with stern thrusters, particularly a stern thruster and no bow thruster, I'm thinking that most boat drivers put far*more value on a bow thruster than a stern thruster.* And it's not like stern thrusters were just invented.* They've been around as long as I've been involved in this kind of boating.

Our GB doesn't have a bow thruster--- it's a twin--- but there have been--- and will be again---*times it would have been very handy to have one even with two engines.* The single-engine GB we chartered before buying our own boat had a bow thruster and there were a few times when it was the only thing that prevented us from damaging something.*

But*I cannot recall any*maneuvering situation where a stern thruster would have been any help to me*at all.



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 5th of November 2010 11:17:52 PM
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Old 11-06-2010, 07:35 AM   #28
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Point taken... And I kinda retract that statement... to a degree. However, until you have tried a stern thruster, single screw, you'll not be completely sold on it, because it IS a tool I would rather have. I suppose something can be said to the idea of it being a good training tool that doesn't have you relying on moving a boat around in "un-natural" ways (can't think of a better word to describe it). And to be honest, I try NOT to use it all that often. I have leaned what the boat can and cannot do and try to not use it as a crutch and I feel like a better operator because of it and I believe I have the stern thruster to thank for that. IMHO
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:14 AM   #29
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
Marin wrote:"Single or twin, you*can always move the stern sideways with the rudder(s) and thrust.....* I'm thinking that most boat drivers put far*more value on a bow thruster than a stern thruster....** there have been--- and will be again---*times it would have been very handy to have one even with two engines....* The single-engine GB we chartered before buying our own boat had a bow thruster and there were a few times when it was the only thing that prevented us from damaging something..... I cannot recall any*maneuvering situation where a stern thruster would have been any help to me*at all."

Having owned 8 boats from 30-54' since 1995, with some of the twins having a bow thruster and all the singles having one, the above quotes sum up my experience with bow thrusters.


*
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Old 11-06-2010, 08:20 AM   #30
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:"However, until you have tried a stern thruster, single screw, you'll not be completely sold on it, because it IS a tool I would rather have."
Fair enough! The point I'm trying to make is "I've never been in a situation where I
considered adding a stern thruster. I've really never needed one!"

*
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:26 AM   #31
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

"I've never been in a situation where I
considered adding a stern thruster. I've really never needed one!"


*
And until you guys are in that situation, you won't appreciate the difference.* Our slip would be near impossible to get into (and out of)*without a stern thruster.* But having said that, we wouldn't know how awesome they are either, if our boat didn't happen to have one when we bought it.

Point being...don't criticize what you don't know.

*Yes, Skinny Dippin' really does have a First Mate.*
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:32 AM   #32
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

I've thought about it a lot and realized there are things a stern thruster will do better and things a bow thruster will do better and the obvious road to maximum maneuvering ability is to have both AND an articulated rudder AND twin engines*** .....
I would prefer the stern thruster for anchoring in winds but a bow thruster probably would work too. AND the skill at the helm is also a tool and obviously the most important tool there is and also the the tool w the widest range of usefulness. The helmsman is the only tool that can overcome almost any maneuvering challenge. So the greatest amount of increase in maneuverability will be achieved by increasing the helmsman's skills. And as long as some amount of good judgement is exercised**** ...the cheapest too. I practice what I preach but not to the degree that I should. I got a new slip yesterday and practiced backing in 8 or 9 times. Someone said recently that the boat always does the same thing when the helmsman does the same thing obviously with the exception of wind and current but relative to that I feel that with enough practice I should be able to back in as well as otherwise and all I'll need to do is adjust my drill enough to compensate for the variables. But I've got plenty of ideas about how to adjust my drill.

"Point being...don't criticize what you don't know."
Bess,
Welcome to Trawler Forum but I don't see how anyone criticized you. Please put some pictures up on the photo album along w some comments and history if you like.
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:55 AM   #33
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

We certainly wouldn't have installed a stern thruster on our boat. But it came with one, which we initially pooh poohed. Having used it for two seasons, we now like it. We can go sideways or spin the boat using both thrusters. Almost like having twin engines again (which I miss).
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Old 11-06-2010, 11:57 AM   #34
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Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

...I feel that with enough practice I should be able to back in as well as otherwise and all I'll need to do is adjust my drill enough to compensate for the variables.
I heard this line in a radio commercial the other day, and while the principle is nothing new I'd not heard it expressed quite this way before.* "An expert is not someone who can do four thousand things, but a person who does one thing four thousand times."


David wrote "Having used it [stern thruster] for two seasons, we now like it."

*

If our boat had a bow thruster we'd use it (as we did on the single we chartered).* If it had a stern thruster, I'd use it.* If for no other reason than I'm lazy and will always choose pushing a button over making an effort.* But with a twin engine boat, I don't believe I would pay money to install either one of these things since we have so far managed to deal with every maneuvering situation we've encountered.* For example, we have perfected the technique of powering the stern of the boat out from a dock against a wind using a big fender and a line looped around the bullrail at the bow.* Pushing a button would be a lot easier, but the line and the fender are a lot cheaper.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 6th of November 2010 12:05:26 PM
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Old 11-06-2010, 02:27 PM   #35
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

@ Eric ,* I didn't mean to say anyone criticized "me" at all, nope, not one bit.* Just the criticism of a stern thruster being useless.* It's anything but.* (and thanks for the welcome!!)

I'd really like to have a bow and a stern thruster so we could show off!*
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Old 11-06-2010, 06:51 PM   #36
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Oh yes showing off is fun**** ...unless or untill you stub your toe.
I'm a bit of a pureist and don't like that big hole in the bow.
I've heard it's no extra drag but I don't believe it.
Welcom again and please do the photo album.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:40 PM   #37
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Counteracting prop walk

I've owned Lotus 8 yrs now, and in the last 6 of those I can't remember a time I would have used a thruster at either end, but I am totally familiar with where and how I need to dock at my berth, and I have no need to go into strange berths. However, I can well imagine the time having thrusters would be reassuring is when traveling strange waters, and more importantly, frequenting strange marinas, when you are unable to anticipate exactly what is ahead when advised by the marina admin staff via VHF to "please make your way to berth 'X' on the courtesy dock", and you have no idea what you're going to find when you get there. That's a time when they would really come in handy I would think.

-- Edited by Peter B on Saturday 6th of November 2010 10:41:26 PM
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Old 11-07-2010, 12:00 AM   #38
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Oh indeed Peter man,
You go up the inside passage to Alaska and every time you don't anchor out you'll come into a small harbor crowded w fish boats, sport fish boats and a few yachts*** ...of all sizes. Since it's late in the day you can't say "I'm outa here". You make do w whatever they give you. You've got to find the spot ther'e talking about after you figure out exactly what they said over the radio and the guy didn't key the mike until after he started talking*** ...seemingly in a foreign language. And you don't want to sound like a geek on the radio for all to hear so you don't ask for a repeat. But the reward is great. Bumping around in a small SE Alaska town is usually much more fun than a walk on a deserted beach. And you'll get both anyway. One thing is for sure*** ...you'll leave Alaska w more boat handling skills than you arrived with.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:45 AM   #39
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:

Welcom again and please do the photo album.
It really seems like you are stalking my wife. There are already photos of our boat posted. Let it go.

Thanks-
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:38 AM   #40
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RE: Counteracting prop walk

Well*** ....if there's any evidence of THAT please submit it. That should make an interesting discussion but if I was to stalk your wife I'd need to see her and I have not so
...I rest my case as they say.
I love to look at the boat pics and am still promoting the album (thanks for your pics by the way) and there are still many boats out there to be presented not to mention wives to be stalked.
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