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Old 06-17-2015, 11:24 AM   #61
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I like to think my KK54 qualifies as a "cottage on water" as well as a blue water cruiser. It even has a whirlpool bathtub

The only thing that it's lacking is a big flybridge for socializing on top underway. There is an upper helm but it's small and not surrounded by guest seating.

Richard

Richard Your boat by any definition of the word is a passagemaker. It has the fuel capacity, and the rough water capability to operate beyond the 72 hour weather forecasting window. It is also a comfortable boat from your description.

Passagemaking capability and comfort are of course not mutually exclusive. We all know that.

The discussion arises when people incorrectly think that for a given length, a boat with more interior space and a "yacht looking" exterior is not seaworthy for open water work, while thinking that essentially the same hull form in a less roomy or more "salty looking" boat is.
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:39 AM   #62
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Today I opened the June issue of Northwest Yachting magazine and found a full page add by Kadey Krogen Yachts. In large print NOT JUST SEAWORTHY BUT SHEWORTHY. And lower down in the add This is the boat she will say yes to.
As my wife and I grow older, the "cottage" influence of our boat is becoming more important. To be sure, we love the increased speed and room, but life in the slip with friends, a barbeque and some great wine is absolutely terrific!
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:17 PM   #63
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Perhaps there is an inverse relationship between a boat that could be considered a "cottage on the water" and seaworthiness. Maybe that's what the op is lamenting about.
A rocket ship is very complicated and perhaps not very safe, but if your goal is the moon, it's what you have to have. No point lamenting it.

My goal is for my wife and I to spend a lot of time on the boat. A cottage is what I have to have. No point lamenting it.

And while it cannot be argued that every pound put on board makes the boat less safe, and perform less well, in some absolute sense, the cottage can have an acceptable risk/reward ratio (want absolute safety, stay in bed, and worry about comets) and perform well enough.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:19 PM   #64
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I don't buy any aspect of the whole theory on a boat of comfort being less seaworthy. In most cases they have more equipment and more backup systems as well. As to the hull and structure, they may or may not be more seaworthy. I think that's perhaps what the no frills constituency has convinced themselves. My wife reminds me that it's a bit like seeing the beautiful blue eyed blonde with big ...."chest assets" and immediately thinking she can't possibly be smart. She and our CFO Jennifer both serve as direct contradiction to that.

Isn't Nordhavn a cottage boat by his definition and KK? Fleming? How about a 164' Westport? Is it unseaworthy? What makes it so, the helicopter pad? What about Jobs' Venus?
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:29 PM   #65
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I don't buy any aspect of the whole theory on a boat of comfort being less seaworthy. In most cases they have more equipment and more backup systems as well. As to the hull and structure, they may or may not be more seaworthy. I think that's perhaps what the no frills constituency has convinced themselves. My wife reminds me that it's a bit like seeing the beautiful blue eyed blonde with big ...."chest assets" and immediately thinking she can't possibly be smart. She and our CFO Jennifer both serve as direct contradiction to that.

Isn't Nordhavn a cottage boat by his definition and KK? Fleming? How about a 164' Westport? Is it unseaworthy? What makes it so, the helicopter pad? What about Jobs' Venus?

At certain smaller sizes...the only way to accommodate a lot of extras is to design the boat around them and not necessarily "blue water" parameters...good weather coastal cruising maybe...


My guess is the vast majority of boaters are in boats 42 and under....so I'm guessing that's where the disagreement may revolve around....

One reason a lot of people don't like living on sailboats is because for "seaworthiness" reasons...they don't have picture windows (the smallest luxury for some)...people feel like they are in a tube. Even express power boats turn a lot of people off once they start spending real cruising time aboard them for the same claustrophobic feeling.

Start talking most amenities beyond the very basic and you are out of many peoples size range unless custom.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:50 PM   #66
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At certain smaller sizes...the only way to accommodate a lot of extras is to design the boat around them and not necessarily "blue water" parameters...good weather coastal cruising maybe...

Start talking most amenities beyond the very basic and you are out of many peoples size range unless custom.
Like loading 10lbs of stuff in a 5lb bag... With a small boat it IS challenging.
You accomodate and sometimes compromise. Sure a bigger boat with more "stuff" would be nice, but it wouldn't address the reason we bought ours. Simple, Affordable, easy to handle, more than capable of doing the ICW from top to bottom (its done it a few times). We like our boat (a lot) and wouldn't change a thing at this point..

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Old 06-17-2015, 01:04 PM   #67
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Why is everyone so defensive?

Go back and read the original poster's post. He says nothing about seaworthiness and he speaks of production boats.

I tend to agree with him. I too appreciate more "traditional" boats and lament their demise. I appreciate boats that aren't trying to be condos. I (and eyschulman and heron) are in the minority.

But the market is what the market is. Boats marketed in North America are turning into the flying barcaloungers that the fat humans have in the movie Wall-E. Comfort and roominess have always been sales factors in American cars and houses. This is why Escalades and McMansions exist. It is logical that it extends to boats.

The Scandinavians, Brits, Ozzies, and Kiwis still build boaty boats, many of which aren't imported here.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:23 PM   #68
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Steve- That's a fine looking boat. One of the best looking designs on this forum in my opinion

I know what you mean by 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag. Our boat has a lot of storage spaces for this particular design, and we've filled all of them. Fortunately my wife got the brilliant idea of putting our entire inventory in a searchable iPad app which calls out exactly where everything is. We also have a hard copy on the boat itself.

So for instance last weekend when I was changing out our fresh water pump and needed a tapered dowel to temporarily plug the feed line when I removed it I simply entered "tapered dowel" Into the search window and it told me which container in which space. Much better than the "I know we have some of these, now where the hell are they?" method.

I think our boat is, for its time, a good compromise of good design for dealing with coastal waters, good accommodations and features, and good aesthetics by my standards.

Aesthetics are important to me. I would not enjoy having and using a boat that didn't look like what I think a boat should look like. So that rules out most of the more modern production boats which, while they have lots of room in them, look to me like big ugly blobs of melted plastic. I'll gladly sacrifice some space to gain an aesthetic design like your boat.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:42 PM   #69
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The Scandinavians, Brits, Ozzies, and Kiwis still build boaty boats, many of which aren't imported here.
Ok, I'll just pick one. Brits. Let's see. Sunseeker. Princess. Fairline. Three leading British boatbuilders. Are those the boaty boats whereof you speak?

What in the world is a "boaty boat?"

Why defensive? Because of the put downs by some. Comments like "flying barcaloungers that the fat humans have in the movie Wall-E", which although I do find humorous, and I haven't seen the movie, I assume isn't meant in a complimentary manner. I don't know if you were calling me "fat" or not, but assure you the bib doesn't fit.

I have never put down any of you who prefer a simpler or different style of boat for your preference. However, some of you do fairly regularly imply that there is something wrong with the rest of us. Why it can't simply be left as having different tastes is what confuses me.

I find nothing negative in the word "Cottage." However, it's often been used on this site in a negative way. My boat is a vacation home. It's not just a boat but it's a home too. Now I have boats that are not. But they'd be further outside the boundaries preferred by those who want it simple with small engines. At least I assume a 39' that runs 60 knots or a 44' that runs 40 knots would be.

I do believe on home size and autos the US is quite a bit different than the rest of the world. I agree with you there for the most part in size. In practicality not so sure in cars as our sports cars aren't US nor is our SUV. But boats. Let's see. Leading builders in the world are in Italy and the UK. Their styling is sleek, luxurious, speed and generally lack of range. Then the megayachts we go to the Dutch and Germans. Hardly a great lesson there in simplicity.

Trawlers. Can't say that those built in the US or elsewhere differ a great deal.

We all have different tastes in boats. My tastes, unfortunately, are that I like them all and want one of each. However, I select those that match my intended use most closely and encourage others to do the same, which may be quite different from what is right for me.

Now as to the person seeking that simpler, no frills, economic with just the right calculated engine size boat. I'm afraid the course there is just as it is with any low volume preferences. It's find a small boat builder who does share your views and get it custom built. Several here have such boats. And for those buying used, you'll find them as well. There won't be many on the market but there won't be great demand for the ones available so you'll have a chance.

I admire those with eclectic tastes. However, by definition, they are in the minority. Many would have to find different tastes if suddenly the majority swung their way. We sure know some of our tastes are far from mainstream. And doesn't bother us a bit. So, if you find yourself in the minority, feel proud, but don't put down the majority because they don't see things as you do.

We are in the opposite end of minority here. We like speed. How horrible. But we're never bothered by the masses of trawler forum who don't share our like.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:23 PM   #70
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Ok, I'll just pick one. Brits. Let's see. Sunseeker. Princess. Fairline. Three leading British boatbuilders. Are those the boaty boats whereof you speak?



What in the world is a "boaty boat?"



Why defensive? Because of the put downs by some. Comments like "flying barcaloungers that the fat humans have in the movie Wall-E", which although I do find humorous, and I haven't seen the movie, I assume isn't meant in a complimentary manner. I don't know if you were calling me "fat" or not, but assure you the bib doesn't fit.



I have never put down any of you who prefer a simpler or different style of boat for your preference. However, some of you do fairly regularly imply that there is something wrong with the rest of us. Why it can't simply be left as having different tastes is what confuses me.



I find nothing negative in the word "Cottage." However, it's often been used on this site in a negative way. My boat is a vacation home. It's not just a boat but it's a home too. Now I have boats that are not. But they'd be further outside the boundaries preferred by those who want it simple with small engines. At least I assume a 39' that runs 60 knots or a 44' that runs 40 knots would be.



I do believe on home size and autos the US is quite a bit different than the rest of the world. I agree with you there for the most part in size. In practicality not so sure in cars as our sports cars aren't US nor is our SUV. But boats. Let's see. Leading builders in the world are in Italy and the UK. Their styling is sleek, luxurious, speed and generally lack of range. Then the megayachts we go to the Dutch and Germans. Hardly a great lesson there in simplicity.



Trawlers. Can't say that those built in the US or elsewhere differ a great deal.



We all have different tastes in boats. My tastes, unfortunately, are that I like them all and want one of each. However, I select those that match my intended use most closely and encourage others to do the same, which may be quite different from what is right for me.



Now as to the person seeking that simpler, no frills, economic with just the right calculated engine size boat. I'm afraid the course there is just as it is with any low volume preferences. It's find a small boat builder who does share your views and get it custom built. Several here have such boats. And for those buying used, you'll find them as well. There won't be many on the market but there won't be great demand for the ones available so you'll have a chance.



I admire those with eclectic tastes. However, by definition, they are in the minority. Many would have to find different tastes if suddenly the majority swung their way. We sure know some of our tastes are far from mainstream. And doesn't bother us a bit. So, if you find yourself in the minority, feel proud, but don't put down the majority because they don't see things as you do.



We are in the opposite end of minority here. We like speed. How horrible. But we're never bothered by the masses of trawler forum who don't share our like.

B&B hits it on the head, again.
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:30 PM   #71
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Steve- That's a fine looking boat. One of the best looking designs on this forum in my opinion


Aesthetics are important to me. I would not enjoy having and using a boat that didn't look like what I think a boat should look like. So that rules out most of the more modern production boats which, while they have lots of room in them, look to me like big ugly blobs of melted plastic. I'll gladly sacrifice some space to gain an aesthetic design like your boat.
Marin...Thanks for the nice comments..We have a similar appreciation of a proper yacht!

I need to build a list of my spares like you have....Even though I don't have that many hiding places on this boat and most all of the parts are up under the V-bunk in one location.

Back on looks, there is a 39' Silverton "Motoryacht" moored near me that is absolutely the ugliest boat I have ever laid eyes on. As you say, a blob of melted plastic..What they were thinking I have no idea, but perhaps it goes back to the premise of this thread..

Cheers!
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:04 PM   #72
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Our inventory list has more than spares. It has pretty much everything that's on the boat. So spares, certainly, but tools, tubes of sealant, my wife's miniature Cuisinart, the foul weather gear, fuel additives, and so on. Even the dog's harness. It's useful when we haven't used something for awhile and we can't quite remember where we keep it.
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Old 06-17-2015, 03:56 PM   #73
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Our inventory list has more than spares. It has pretty much everything that's on the boat. So spares, certainly, but tools, tubes of sealant, my wife's miniature Cuisinart, the foul weather gear, fuel additives, and so on. Even the dog's harness. It's useful when we haven't used something for awhile and we can't quite remember where we keep it.
We went wild inventorying everything but once done we've found it easy to maintain and so very helpful. Especially the way boat storage is that you use every possible space so some things don't end up where logically you'd expect to find them.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:07 PM   #74
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B (andB),

There is a difference in the words imply and infer. Your first post in this thread indicated that you perceive (and accuse eyschulman) of implying) that his concept of boat to cottage ratio is negative. I think you are inferring that.

I'm not sure I have eclectic taste, just traditional. I'll also admit I am a bit of an anachronist (not talking about the people who dress up in chain mail and play swords in the park on Sunday afternoons). I mean pragmatic, Keep It Simple Stupid, form follows function, if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of guy. Yachts are styled for styles sake, I get that. Whereas good design remains classic and admired year after year. Waring blenders, Cross pens, Rolex watches fall into the category.

I think much of our difference of opinion lies in the concept of vernacular design. Not just between you and I, but between many of us on this site. My boating has been mainly in New England, the PNW, and the BC coast. The boats in these places are completely different than the boats in Florida. Horses for courses, if you will.

FWIW, my retirement boat will likely be a KK. More on the cottage side...

You really should see the movie Wall-E.
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:51 PM   #75
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I know what a boaty boat is....
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:14 PM   #76
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I know what a boaty boat is....
Hey! Keep this PG-14...

...and don't you have some multi-variate shower testing to do?
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:21 PM   #77
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Hey! Keep this PG-14...

...and don't you have some multi-variate shower testing to do?
I didn't say booty boat...but back to experimenting...
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:46 PM   #78
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Steve- That's a fine looking boat. One of the best looking designs on this forum in my opinion
Downeast style boats. Love their lines. Of course I'm biased, not because of the boat I have which is not one, but because I've spent my life in the midst of them and have experienced their aesthetic and practical qualities.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:00 PM   #79
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Keep It Simple Stupid, form follows function, if it ain't broke don't fix it kind of guy.
I totally agree with this philosophy. Particularly with machines that one trusts one's life to. We have witnessed boaters having a fairly severe problem but the systems they were having to deal with were so complicated that they compounded the problem and delayed the discovery of the solution or fix, sometimes the point of making the overall situation even more critical.

Our 42-year old boat is in virtually stock configuration as far as its systems are concerned. Electrical, plumbing, drive train, etc., all identical to what is illustrated in the original owners manual.

The only things that have advanced past 1973 are the electronics, the fuel tanks, and the batteries, where we replaced 2 8Ds with 6 6vdc golf cart batteries. But even these are connected to the boat's stock electrical system-- the only change was to the batteries themselves.

We or previous owners have upgraded individual components--- the stove/oven, the refrigerator/freezer, the anchor windless, and the aforementioned fuel tanks are the biggest items. But they are all connected to the boat's original systems.

This makes the boat extremely easy to maintain and troubleshoot when problems occur.
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Old 06-17-2015, 06:13 PM   #80
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Have enjoyed this thread, but few, if anyone, has made the distinction between a boat kept at home in a marina and a cruising boat on which a couple will live for months at a time.

We live among cruisers, half full time, half four or more months a year, and the two big reasons these cruisers move back to shore are (1) health, and (2) wife's unhappiness. As I repeatedly said in the basic boating course since the last century, if you want to cruise keep your wife happy.

We do not have a cottage on the water (unless cottage in the Newport sense). I call it our movable two bedroom condo. My wife is happy. Therefore I am happy.

For our members out of the United States, Newport, Rhode Island cottages were the summer homes of the American elite for almost 100 years.
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