Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:49 AM   #41
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Costa Concordia

Quote:
7tiger7 wrote:
who here thinks (and yes, this is PURE speculation) that had the Captain acted as he should of (responsibly) and taken command of the ship and evacuation as soon as she had struck the rocks, there would have been zero casualties?
With that many people on board, on a ship going down onto its side, at night, no lights, I'm surprised there weren't a lot more casualties.* Had the captain responded immediately to the collision the evacuation might have been more orderly and there certainly would have been a bit more time.* But I don't know that given the conditions and the confusion on an individual level it's even statistically possible to have zero casualties in a case like this.

And of course, if the captain had been capable of commanding in an emergency with the kind of authority and determination required, he never would have permitted the ship to get into that situation in the first place.

What I find really astounding if it's true is that the captain was steering the ship visually.* With all the electronic aids avaialble-- GPS, radar, plotters, depth sounders, possibly even forward-looking sonar although I don't know if this sort of thing is put on cruise ships alhtough you can get it for your 36' cruiser--- it's amazing to me that he decided to drive the ship visually at night close in to shore.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 21st of January 2012 12:50:25 PM
__________________
Advertisement

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 11:51 AM   #42
Senior Member
 
7tiger7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
RE: Costa Concordia

I thought he was at dinner when the ship struck the rocks?
__________________

7tiger7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 11:56 AM   #43
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Costa Concordia

I heard--- perhaps on that link with the AIS track analysis-- that the ship was being steered visually. I assumed it was by the captain since he's the one who wanted to show the passengers the town and so deviated from the ship's normal route. But perhaps it was being steered by someone else. I also read that this particular captain had a history of--- and readily stated that he liked to--- "deviate" from established procedures to do something that he wanted to do.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 12:02 PM   #44
Senior Member
 
7tiger7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 239
RE: Costa Concordia

So I guess he was technically a.... wait for it... a deviant. :-P
7tiger7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:06 PM   #45
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Costa Concordia

I don't know typo
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:10 PM   #46
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Costa Concordia

I don't know typically how many people are on the bridge but it would be interesting if anyone expressed concern about the shallow water. In some cultures it is not exceptable behavior to question a superior.
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:45 PM   #47
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Costa Concordia

Quote:
timjet wrote:
I don't know typically how many people are on the bridge but it would be interesting if anyone expressed concern about the shallow water. In some cultures it is not exceptable behavior to question a superior.
I dunno--- if the bridge crew were Italian I can easily imagine them arguing over all manner of things as the ship sailed on its merry way toward the rocks.

But you are right about the cultural thing.* One of the biggest challenges in my business has been trying to "break" the imbedded rule in many Asian cultures that the captain, skipper, pilot, commander, "guy in charge," is not to be questioned by an underling under any circumstances.* This has led to several well-publicized aircraft accidents over the years.

It's one advantage of automation and is partly why modern jetliners have so much of it, although the real solution (until we get fully automated air travel) is to "re-program" the crews of airplanes, ships, etc. to work together to solve problems or avoid dangerous situations.* But it's not easy going against a few hundred years of cultural habits.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #48
Guru
 
Carey's Avatar
 
City: Bellingham, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Happy Destiny
Vessel Model: Custom Lobster Yacht
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,101
RE: Costa Concordia

Quote:
timjet wrote:
I don't know typically how many people are on the bridge but it would be interesting if anyone expressed concern about the shallow water. In some cultures it is not exceptable behavior to question a superior.
*From the graphic the news showed yesterday on television, it appeared that the depth went from almost two hundred feet to almost nothing in only a hundred and fifty feet or so.
Carey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 05:57 PM   #49
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 50
RE: Costa Concordia

Got this from another site

The current plight of the Costa Concordia reminds me of a comment made by Churchill.

After his retirement he was cruising the Mediterranean on an Italian cruise liner and some Italian journalists asked why an ex British Prime Minister should chose an Italian ship.

There are three things I like about being on an Italian cruise ship said Churchill.

First their cuisine is unsurpassed. Second their service is superb. And then, in time of emergency, there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.
Boathommy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:15 PM   #50
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,853
RE: Costa Concordia

When leaving Rome on Alitallia to make a connection in Paris, the Italians were a fashionable 2 hours late leaving the gate. *That threw us very late in Paris. *The Italians had lost our luggage, and we had to make a claim before departure. *This caused us to miss our connection in Paris. *Just cost us a $400.00 night in a hotel and a few expensive meals. *However, the Italians made up for their ineffiency with total indifference.*

You might ask what this has to do with the Costa Concordia incident. *Nothing. *I just see that things have not changed.
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:32 PM   #51
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
Costa Concordia

It's difficult for me to comprehend with 4 or 5 officers on the bridge a navigation error so ..... well erroneous.
I doubt the captain was at the helm so I'm sure any investigation will have to determine what the other officers were doing.

In our culture the captain is ultimately responsible, but that does not relieve others who have responsibility from disciplinary action if they knew or should have known something was wrong.

It's hard for me to understand why this happened. I suspect that the culture on the bridge was one of not questioning authority and the Captain maintained that culture with intimidation. If so, it was just a matter of time before an accident happened with this Captain. Again I don't know how many officers were on the bridge, but to our knowledge no one said anything. Thats incredible. Did everyone on the bridge have his head up his a$$? or even worse were they afraid to say anything.

Based on the actions of the Captain after the accident I suspect the culture as I described is not too far off.



-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 21st of January 2012 07:34:52 PM


-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 21st of January 2012 07:36:50 PM
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:48 PM   #52
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,853
RE: Costa Concordia

Quote:
timjet wrote:
*

It's hard for me to understand why this happened. I suspect that the culture on the bridge was one of not questioning authority and the Captain maintained that culture with intimidation. If so, it was just a matter of time before an accident happened with this Captain. Again I don't know how many officers were on the bridge, but to our knowledge no one said anything. Thats incredible. Did everyone on the bridge have his head up his a$$? or even worse were they afraid to say anything.

*
*Tim, this is anecdotal as I have not made a study of this. *I have, however, been aboard a few Italian and Greek ships. *On one of the Greek ships I had occasion for a long discussion with the captain, and saw him interacting with his crew.

My observation is that those guys are the top of the food chain and the cock of the walk. *Nobody crosses them. *I even saw one insult the president of a company that had a large group of his top producers on the cruise. *I would not consider that as very good business. *I have not observed this with Scandanavian captains.*

If the captain wanted to take that ship to Rome, I don't think they would question him.
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 06:58 PM   #53
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Costa Concordia

Quote:
timjet wrote:I suspect that the culture on the bridge was one of not questioning authority and the Captain maintained that culture with intimidation.
From what we have observed working in Italy with various airlines over the years, nobody has any problem questioning authority.* At least not in the airline world.* Don't know about ships.*

But in our experience, not only does everyone---from the lowest tug driver to the most senior pilot--- have no qualms about making an issue out of anything they like, but they all seem to relish doing this, usually with intensity on the part of all parties.*

The problem we experienced was that they discuss things FAR too long and to no real benefit.* In our experience they will drop everything for the opportuity to "talk" about stuff.* In many cases this made us late for what we were trying to do.* We'd be hustling along on the airport only to find that our airline and airport escorts had all stopped some distance behind us and were discussing--- again--- what it was we were going to do even though it was crystal clear what was going on.

A big joke out of WWII was that Mussolini's single greatest accomplishment as prime minister of Italy was getting the country's trains to run on time.* I always figured this was just a way of degrading the man, but after working there a few times I can see what a remarkable achievement that was, if he really was able to do it.

While it's impossible to know what really happened unless one was on board the Costa Concordia at the time, and even then nobody probably has the big picture, I rather doubt that things would have been any less confusing and chaotic if the captain had remained on board.* For all we know, his departure may have made the situation better.* I would not be at all surprised if this was the case. One less person to "discuss" everything and issue confilcting opinions and commands that would have served only to slow things down.

The only other culture I have experienced directly that does this same thing---- talk a situation to death--- is China.* The saving grace in China is that they DO have a cultural characteristic of respecting high authority, and eventually someone with it will step in and say "This is what's going to happen."** I found on our most recent project there that often that "higher authority" turned out to be me, once I got over trying to be polite.

Not so in Italy, where rank and authority are, in my observation, no insulation at all against underlings telling you you're full of sh*t.

I'll have to ask Rick if ships like the Costa Concordia have voice recorders on the bridge like the voice recorders on commercial transports that continuously record the last 30 minutes of sounds.* If they do, it would be very interesting to hear what was going on during that last half hour of the recorder's operation.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 21st of January 2012 08:02:19 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #54
Guru
 
Egregious's Avatar
 
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Polly P.
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 554
Costa Concordia

[the master of that ship is in deep doo-doo]*



-- Edited by Egregious on Saturday 21st of January 2012 08:22:18 PM


-- Edited by Egregious on Saturday 21st of January 2012 08:24:39 PM
Egregious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #55
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 39
RE: Costa Concordia

It's very off topic, but since it's been brought up -

I was caught in traffic just a few hundred feet from the 14th street bridge when the Air Florida flight hit the bridge. I saw it and I'll never forget it.

I watched Lenny Skutnik jump into the river from the opposite bank and rescue the crew member.

The pilot of the US Park Police Helicopter did an amazing job getting the few survivors to shore.
*
There are heros among us. Everywhere, everyday. It just takes an emergency for them to rise to the top.

Long time ago.

Mike
Palm Coast FL.
pull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 03:49 AM   #56
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,670
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
RE: Costa Concordia

This vessel did have a black box, so that will indeed be interesting...if we ever get to hear about it that is...the company will try hard to bury it, or keep it as confidential as possible, I bet.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:38 AM   #57
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
RE: Costa Concordia

Fox news reported this morning that Costa offered all the passengers on that boat a 30% discount on their next cruise. Are you FN kidding me?
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #58
Ed
Veteran Member
 
Ed's Avatar
 
City: Brownsville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Makin Do
Vessel Model: PT38 Sedan #60
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 67
RE: Costa Concordia

This is pretty revealing *. *. *. *if it's true.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...tracted-guests
Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 12:48 PM   #59
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Costa Concordia

The same sort of thing--- the captain distracted by talking to and showing off in front of a visitor he'd invited to the bridge--- put the Washington State ferry Elwha onto the rocks in tiny Grindstone Harbor on Orcas Island back in the 80s when he deviated from the ferry's normal course to show his visitor what her house looked like when viewed from the water.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 04:11 PM   #60
Senior Member
 
johnma's Avatar
 
City: Philadelphia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dreamers Holiday
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 322
RE: Costa Concordia

My wife and I had lunch today with a friend who's husband is a cruise line captain. He says that the cruise lines know to within a few meters where their ships are at any particular time. No black box is required, just a supena for their records. this info can't be lost or hidden.
John
__________________

johnma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Golfito, Costa Rica Larry M Fuel Check 0 05-24-2011 03:11 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012