Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-19-2012, 11:02 PM   #61
QB
Senior Member
 
QB's Avatar
 
City: San Diego and Gabriola
Country: USA and Canada
Vessel Name: Skookum Maru
Vessel Model: Ed Monk design #1924
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Chinook is not a fishboat conversion. She was built to Garden's original plans for a recreational cruiser based on his troller design.
Thanks, Marin, I thought you were saying Chinook was built from the troller plans. So, was the hull shape changed too? I don't see how just making the house longer and putting an aft cabin where the fish hold would be could affect empty stability very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
And Garden's troller design itself was not "woefully unstable without a load of iced fish."
Well, in the article refugio posted, that is supposedly a quote from Garden himself. Tad Roberts comes to a similar conclusion, and points out that 157 fishing vessels capsized in BC between 1975 and 2005. Though I don't know how many of those were trollers that flipped because of underloading, and I don't know of a database like the NTSB aviation database to search to try to find out. I would like to know. I think PNW salmon trollers are beautiful boats; I just need to do more due diligence before I commit to one as a cruiser.
__________________
Advertisement

QB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2012, 11:19 PM   #62
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Chinook's hull is identical to the 37' troller plans. As it was explained to me by the previous owner, Garden adapted his troller design for cruising. Apparently several were built over the years but Chinook is the only one that followed Garden's plans to the letter.

The previous owner took me and my wife through Chinook one day and while it is a really great boat, the inside spaces are fairly small, particularly below-decks in the galley, stateroom, and aft head/shower/closet. Chinook is powered by her original Cummins diesel but I don't know what model.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2012, 11:32 PM   #63
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,667
Whoa...

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Here's a cool trawler I saw.
I really, really, really lust after this boat. Must be the scandahoovian roots...

Any more info on this boat?
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 03:38 AM   #64
Senior Member
 
long-cours.62's Avatar
 
City: Szczecin
Country: France
Vessel Name: HOA
Vessel Model: Long-cours.62
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
For different names/types may be choose on this list from "apollo duck"
Aft Cabin
Aft Cockpit
Catamaran
Classic
Commuter
Day Boats
Downeast
Flybridge
Flybridge Aft Cabin
Launch
Pilothouse
River Cruiser
Sports Cruiser
Trawler
Twin-Deck

For example for our we send advertising in Apollo under Trawler/passagemaker and they put her in ...pilothouse.
And when we contact Wosper for stab they put, on the front of the quotation :not 'trawler' or passagemaker but"patrol boat" and finally it is the closest definition of the look of our boat
long-cours.62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 03:53 AM   #65
Senior Member
 
long-cours.62's Avatar
 
City: Szczecin
Country: France
Vessel Name: HOA
Vessel Model: Long-cours.62
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
more details at

Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Well... there are some tugs with sails...

http://navirelemanguier.com/crbst_1.html
long-cours.62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #66
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Here a beautiful girl sitting in the yard
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Wooden Trawler 1.jpg
Views:	188
Size:	80.4 KB
ID:	11389  
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 04:12 PM   #67
QB
Senior Member
 
QB's Avatar
 
City: San Diego and Gabriola
Country: USA and Canada
Vessel Name: Skookum Maru
Vessel Model: Ed Monk design #1924
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by QB View Post
Though I don't know how many of those were trollers that flipped because of underloading, and I don't know of a database like the NTSB aviation database to search to try to find out. I would like to know.
To followup on this... The Transportation Safety Board of Canada does have online searchable marine investigation reports that go back to 1990: Marine Reports.

Quite educational to read. For example maybe like me you did not know that a net full of sardines panicking and sounding can capsize a seiner; but that happened to the Prospect Point in 2004.

Anyway, I tried to look at all capsizing incidents and found 12 involving medium-sized fishing type boats on the west coast from 1994 to 2008. In my reading of the reports I didn't see underballasting as the cause in any of them per se. However there were some cases of center of gravity problems due to mounting a second seine reel above an existing one, carrying 500 heavy prawn traps above the deck, and the like. And an awfully high fraction of the cases implicated the free surface effect due to holds only partially full of ballasting seawater. That and/or loose hatches when the deck goes awash can be a really bad combination...

So far as converting a troller to a cruiser goes, I'd conclude from all this that you definitely want to take stability seriously. Having a NA run a stability analysis on your design sure could be worth the money. But with small or well-baffled tankage, low superstructure, and the ability to seal hatches and doors to belowdecks you ought to be able to have a seaworthy boat.
QB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 08:17 PM   #68
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Can't help but be smitten with the style of this Legacy 32 tug-ette. I see there are a few on Yachtworld including one in the PNW. I not much conversation about them, but I like their fairway flash.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	21133-1.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	101.3 KB
ID:	11398   Click image for larger version

Name:	21133-2.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	163.5 KB
ID:	11399  
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2012, 11:19 PM   #69
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Marin: Thanks for the background info on Chinook!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
So it's not like these boats had to cruise around with a permanent load of iced fish in the hold for stability. Even if they had, the ice would have melted fairly quickly and then they'd have had a really stinky boat on their hands.
My boat - a "yacht-like" version of a commercial fishing hull, was originally built by and for what could be called a "gentleman fisherman". He intended to troll to supplement his retirement, so there was an insulated fish hold extending under about half of the saloon and half of the cockpit, a trolling valve, and even an icing machine under the starboard side deck. That machine is gone now, of course, and I converted the hold into more usable stowage (batteries, w/d, et cetera). The trolling valve is handy sometimes when we're in a slow procession (e.g. the "Special People's Cruise" at Christmas).
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 02:11 AM   #70
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Can't help but be smitten with the style of this Legacy 32 tug-ette..
Yes, but a bit cartoonish.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 12:05 PM   #71
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Yes, but a bit cartoonish.

True. Perhaps a little help would come from removal of the fake stack (photo). Still, the hull and draft look like intentional boat building. Side by side with the Coot in the same marina, I doubt they would evoke similar responses. It's a character boat rather than a boat with character.

Refugio: Sure would love to see some other photos of your boat. Too bad about the ice-maker removal though. With such a machine here in Miami, you'd have been the "supply guy" for the big weekend cooler parties on the water!
Attached Images
 
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 12:27 PM   #72
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Yes, but a bit cartoonish.

Maybe. But I bet the ladies love it! "It's so cute!"
BaltimoreLurker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 12:37 PM   #73
Senior Member
 
bshanafelt's Avatar
 
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Isobel K
Vessel Model: 37' Custom Pilothouse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
Concerning the 'Legacy' trawler boats, there are/were multiple versions available with options for semi or full displacement hulls and 3 or more configurations for cabins etc. all on this 32' base. All came with a canoe stern.

This company did build a number of boats in the late 80's and 90's. They are reputed to be a pretty solid little unit.

A good friend of mine from here in the PNW contracted with the company owner to custom build a semi-displ. with a pilothouse configuration, similar to the photo previously posted. Instead of the aft cabin, there would be a covered cockpit and swimstep. Dinghy could be stowed on the saloon roof and deployed with a small crane.

This custom boat was to have a Cummins 5.9 developing 270hp, an articulated rudder and a number of 'cool' features.

His plan was to take delivery of the boat in Fl, cruise a bit around the Keys and then truck the boat home, where he would become the PNW rep for the brand, showing the vessel at boat shows etc. He expected to compete favorably with the Nordic Tug 32, Camano 28 etc.


The first sad part of the story is that the boat company was in decline at the time this boat was contracted to be built around 2004. Further complicating matters was the new owners lived in WA state and the 'factory' was in Clearwater, FL.

Much $$ was sent to FL to build the boat, but without any accountability controls the project was not only absurdly far behind in production, but much of the cash had vanished before the owners finally admitted the 'plan' was faulty.


Today (2012) the partially complete boat is still in FL. The second sad part of the tale is the husband who commisioned the boat became ill with a fairly aggressive cancer 3 years into the alleged 9 month build, and did succome to the cancer, leaving his widow to try to deal with the disposition of the boat.

Attorneys became involved and the most recent agreement(2010) is that the boat-builder will try and finish the boat and sell it in an attempt to recoup some of the monies paid toward the project.


Of course, there are many lessons here, but one very noteworthy one is this: go boating. Do it now. Do it on what you can afford presently. There are a million ways to boat, and a million boats to do it on. A canoe may be small, but it is still a boat.


This sweet generous couple who suffered these things, sold their current boat in anticipation of getting the 'custom' boat to replace it. Instead they ended up missing several years of boating together while 'waiting' for their dream boat to be finished.



See you out there.
bshanafelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #74
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,169
On the design of fishboats:

I worked on a 48 ft Salmon Troller, wooden, built new the year I worked on it, 1967. We fished fairweather ground, so had to run from Vancouver to Prince Rupert with an empty hold, (not even a speck of ice), refuelled and got ice, ran to fairweather ground, fished till the ice was starting to melt, about 2 weeks, back to PR to off load fish, take on new ice, back and forth, for the season. All running was at full speed, about 10 knots, in all conditions. Later in the season, in Hecate Straits, we had to run for cover from weather, so were running West to Haida Gwaii, in swells that rolled us 45 degrees each way. Nothing the weather threw at us fazed the boat, or threatened the safety of the crew, in any condition of load.

I wouldn't reject a fishboat design for a pleasure boat on the grounds of safety. Unless modified with no regard to stability, here I am thinking of the movie "Perfect Storm", the only drawback to the fishboat hull design will be in its design being sufficient for a heavy load that the incarnation as a pleasure boat will never require.

The reports of capsizes referred to by QB are worth closer reading. I know one of those sinkings, for which I had a brief personal involvement as a lawyer. The initial reports in the media had suggested the "diving " of the netload of fish had sunk the boat. Physics prevailed in the investigation, however and the NTSB report contains no reference to the media reports, but lists the actual causes of the sinking and the associated fatalities.
Stuggle as they might, a netload of fish, acting with one urge to dive, will be incapable of adding any significant weight to the line lifting the net. That netload will indeed get heavier as it is raised above the water, as the winch takes more of the weight, it will tend to heel the boat. In the case above, the "cod end" of the trawl was raised to the power block, well up above the deck, raising the COG of the boat and depressing the Starboard rail below the waterline, unfortunately, to the point that the uncovered hatch was downflooded. This sort of action is incapable of replication on any similar boat in pleasureboat configuration.
koliver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 01:47 PM   #75
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Almost all of the relatively few cases of commercial fishing/crabbing boats capsizing or listing to the point of filling and sinking I have read have ended up with overloading being the cause, most often with additional equipment or crab pots that were added to or stacked on the boat, thus altering the initial stability characteristics of the boat.

Chinook is not a light boat. She is fairly simply finished on the inside so below decks much of her structure is visible, even in the stateroom. She is heavily framed and planked. Most of the weight is low. The owner never spoke of the boat being ballasted in any significant way, and while I did not stick my head in every nook and cranny, I didn't see any evidence of any ballast anywhere.

The same is true of my other favorite boat in our marina, Donna. Again, a heavily built boat from the 1940s, in this case powered by her original gas engine. But Donna was run empty to the fishing grounds the owner fished solo for many years in SE Alaska and then was run back south empty. Like Koliver, Donna's owner told me he'd been caught out in bad weather on occasion but while Donna rolled around a lot he said she was never in danger of getting into trouble. And Donna is a true double-ended boat so in following seas has little no tendency to be pushed around.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Chinook 1.jpg
Views:	219
Size:	108.4 KB
ID:	11408   Click image for larger version

Name:	Chinook 2.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	131.8 KB
ID:	11409   Click image for larger version

Name:	Donna-001.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	128.0 KB
ID:	11410   Click image for larger version

Name:	Donna 2.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	63.2 KB
ID:	11411   Click image for larger version

Name:	Donna 3.jpg
Views:	83
Size:	102.5 KB
ID:	11412  

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 03:28 PM   #76
QB
Senior Member
 
QB's Avatar
 
City: San Diego and Gabriola
Country: USA and Canada
Vessel Name: Skookum Maru
Vessel Model: Ed Monk design #1924
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
Stuggle as they might, a netload of fish, acting with one urge to dive, will be incapable of adding any significant weight to the line lifting the net.
So it's one of those myths? Disappointing to hear that! I liked thinking that the sardines had a chance of making it a fair fight .

Anyway, TSB Canada's report goes with it on the Prospect Point capsizing:
Finding as to Causes and Contributing Factors

The vessel capsized as a result of having insufficient transverse stability to withstand the dynamic heeling forces imposed upon it while fishing sardines. The sardines trapped in the net sounded, which increased the load on the head of the boom to a condition in which the heeling moment exceeded the maximum righting moment, causing the vessel to capsize.
The full report is here: Transportation Safety Board of Canada - MARINE REPORTS - 2004 - M04W0225
QB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 03:38 PM   #77
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
bshanafelt: That is heartbreaking info. Thanks for sharing that, but I sure wish the best for the poor souls caught up in the mess, as if loosing your partner isn't enough. I suppose there are many such stories among all the mfgrs. that bit the dust.
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 04:50 PM   #78
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Almost all of the relatively few cases of commercial fishing/crabbing boats capsizing or listing to the point of filling and sinking I have read have ended up with overloading being the cause, most often with additional equipment or crab pots that were added to or stacked on the boat, thus altering the initial stability characteristics of the boat.
Quite true. I recall the book "Lost at Sea" about the two Anacortes-based crabbing vessels that reached the same conclusion.

I've always wanted to get a stability curve of my vessel....
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 04:57 PM   #79
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
It's a character boat rather than a boat with character.
Looks somewhat like Jay Benford's later designs (when he got away from all the exterior wood).

Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Refugio: Sure would love to see some other photos of your boat...
I have some - maybe I'll put a few up.
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2012, 09:31 PM   #80
QB
Senior Member
 
QB's Avatar
 
City: San Diego and Gabriola
Country: USA and Canada
Vessel Name: Skookum Maru
Vessel Model: Ed Monk design #1924
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 215
Near Mly, Norway.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	photo.JPG
Views:	112
Size:	156.5 KB
ID:	11415  
__________________

QB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012