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Old 03-18-2015, 12:56 AM   #21
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Most successful motorsailers have SA/D (sail area/displacement) ratios between 12.0 and 14.0. Assuming your boat has a displacement of about 23,000# your rig should have a sail area between 610 and 710. SA/D of less than 12.0 will leave your boat underpowered, even by motorsailer standards.

The Island Packet 41 SP has published sail area of 733 and a SA/D of 14.5.

The idea of a fully-battened main with a solid vang, and a self-tending jib of less than 100% foretriangle would make it a very easily handled rig. I doubt that you need electric winches, but you definitely want to use the factory chainplates. The forces generated by a rig that size on a boat of that displacement and beam increase very quickly.

You can run the numbers using this SA/D calculator.
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:07 AM   #22
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Part of keeping it simple(r) is to have roller furling and no sail hanks or tracks. A boom isn't even necessary.


Not a motorsailer:





Mast is on a tabernacle resting on the pilothouse's fiberglass roof mounted on a steel superstructure. Seven stays hold it up: two split stays going to each stern quarter gunwale, two lower guys attached to the pilothouse sides, two upper stays attached to the hull gunwales, and a bow stay attached to the stem. The rig will get one home if it is down wind, but it's not designed to sail the boat. The hull is pure motorboat and sails small, but with beam winds it can help stabilize the boat and add a half-knot or so if one isn't already powering near hull speed.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:02 AM   #23
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"Mast is on a tabernacle" ,,although your rig will be 100% larger , I would install a tabernacle too.

The ability to unrig the stick would be best for coastal work, and the Loop.

Full sailing ability (ghosting) will not be required , so I would look for a used rig .

Smaller than stock will be OK for your intended use. In the Windwards 15K is common and its a reach.

For Get Home use ,( For the sq rt of the LWL speeds), a remarkable tiny amount of sail is required .

I was demoing a Wood Freeman AP on a Vagabond 46 ft boat and just the inner stay sail gave 6K , adding the main , fore stay sail and mizzen added speed , but only 1.5K

To have any windward sailing ability a better prop will be required as the drag is huge on a 3 blade.

Paul Luke makes props for motoring that feather , far more powerful underway than a prop made for a sail boat to power on occasion.

A 90/90 is a great way to cruise , the 1930s 50/50 is long dead as the early compromises need not be made.

AS a sail boat 10% is lost to the weight of the engine and drag of the prop.

As a motor boat 10% is lost to the space of the sails , the weight and air drag of the rig.

If you intend to actually sail, not just broad reach or wallow downwind , roller shade head sails wont cut it.

A fully battened main with broad dutch style headboard is the best mainsail made for cruising.

When headed into the wind the sail will not flap and tear it self apart.Very useful setting or sailing out the anchor , or motoring inshore following a channel.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:22 AM   #24
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Convert trawler to motorsailer?

One issue with not going for the full factory refit is while it would be cheaper, I probably would not get any money back out of it when I sold it. The other, bigger, negative is I don't know how to install a sail rig,
so if the factory doesn't do it I would not know who to turn to for a quality install.

With the full factory SP refit I THINK I would actually be increasing the value of the boat to what the SPs are selling for.

All that being said, I will probably just do nothing for now (many times the best course of action for my ideas) and enjoy the boat for at least a year.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:31 AM   #25
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As long as the attachment points at the hull are already there, and hardware just needs to be attached, there are plenty of very talented expert riggers out there. If hull strengthening is required, while they still might do it, factory transmitted engineering details may be required. Especially if any hull warranty is involved.

They actually may suggest plenty of improvements over a factory install.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:40 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"Mast is on a tabernacle" ,,although your rig will be 100% larger , I would install a tabernacle too.

The ability to unrig the stick would be best for coastal work, and the Loop.

Full sailing ability (ghosting) will not be required , so I would look for a used rig .

Smaller than stock will be OK for your intended use. In the Windwards 15K is common and its a reach.

For Get Home use ,( For the sq rt of the LWL speeds), a remarkable tiny amount of sail is required .

I was demoing a Wood Freeman AP on a Vagabond 46 ft boat and just the inner stay sail gave 6K , adding the main , fore stay sail and mizzen added speed , but only 1.5K

To have any windward sailing ability a better prop will be required as the drag is huge on a 3 blade.

Paul Luke makes props for motoring that feather , far more powerful underway than a prop made for a sail boat to power on occasion.

A 90/90 is a great way to cruise , the 1930s 50/50 is long dead as the early compromises need not be made.

AS a sail boat 10% is lost to the weight of the engine and drag of the prop.

As a motor boat 10% is lost to the space of the sails , the weight and air drag of the rig.

If you intend to actually sail, not just broad reach or wallow downwind , roller shade head sails wont cut it.

A fully battened main with broad dutch style headboard is the best mainsail made for cruising.

When headed into the wind the sail will not flap and tear it self apart.Very useful setting or sailing out the anchor , or motoring inshore following a channel.

Thanks for the info FF. I look forward to you looking over my boat when I get to your dock.
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Old 03-18-2015, 07:53 AM   #27
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Check out a sailing Grand Banks.
A grand banks with a hybrid twist | Soundings Online
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:04 AM   #28
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Why not Paravanes? Should keep your air draft down, give you the stabilization needed. Likely cheaper, certainly less complicated.
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:16 AM   #29
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Wow. What an adventurous life they have led. Makes me feel a little anxious about my relatively boring life. Don't get me wrong--I've had a good life so far. Owned a couple of good businesses, made decent money, good wife, smart/healthy kids.

But I do yearn for some adventure, and since I've turned 50 that desire has grown much stronger. Frustratingly, my wife's sense of adventure is not yet on the same page. I need to work on that...

As for that sailing Grand Banks, I think it's cool as hell they figured out what would work for them. That's what I'm trying to do, although I'm starting out with much less boating knowledge and skills.
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Old 03-18-2015, 09:20 AM   #30
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Why not Paravanes? Should keep your air draft down, give you the stabilization needed. Likely cheaper, certainly less complicated.

I like the idea of paravanes for stability, but I was trying to incorporate an alternate means of propulsion as well. I thought the sail rig, while expensive, would do a decent job at both. If I give up on the need/want for alternate propulsion I think paravanes are the best plan, if they can be installed on this boat that is.
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:51 AM   #31
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Thanks for the info FF. I look forward to you looking over my boat when I get to your dock.

Might be on your return visit .

I am tracking down a fuel problem "making oil" in the lube oil, and we may be gone at the start of April.

The dock will be clear , so come on over.
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Old 03-18-2015, 10:57 AM   #32
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Deal. Let's draw up the option contract now so we both have a contingency plan. What's that option worth?

😁😁


I was thinking of trying to do this to my Roughwater 35, only a few were ever made and I do not think any have survived.

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Old 03-18-2015, 11:33 AM   #33
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That looks really cool
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:10 PM   #34
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Greetings,
Mr. cd. "But I do yearn for some adventure, and since I've turned 50 that desire has grown much stronger." I think you may be experiencing the onset of andropause. Some males self "medicate" with little red sports cars or fast women (younger). I do NOT suggest this nor do I suggest converting to sail. Sit back, relax and chill...

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Old 03-18-2015, 01:46 PM   #35
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I'm sure the IP sails fine on all points with its stock rig. Sure it is not a racer, but it will get you there. The IP SP boat is more sailor than it is powerboat.
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Old 03-18-2015, 01:49 PM   #36
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Convert trawler to motorsailer?

http://www.bwsailing.com/bw/boat-rev...et-sp-cruiser/

I agree Bligh, probably more of a sailboat.
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Old 03-19-2015, 01:56 PM   #37
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Convert trawler to motorsailer?

Just got an email from an engineer Island Packet. Turns out the ballast in the PY is 500 lbs less than the SP, and he said the full SP sail rig would make the boat too tender.

So my idea of turning it into a SP seems to be out, which is fine because I really didn't want to spend that much money.

He recommend a shorter mast and manual winches, and they are coming up with a price. It needs to be pretty cheap IMO since I probably won't be able to recoup much (if any) of it, and I have a feeling the Factory installation will not be inexpensive.

Any idea what a "cheap" main sail and jib might cost to install? $10000? $20000? I have no idea.
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Old 03-19-2015, 02:06 PM   #38
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Just got an email from an engineer Island Packet. Turns out the ballast in the PY is 500 lbs less than the SP, and he said the full SP sail rig would make the boat too tender.

So my idea of turning it into a SP seems to be out, which is fine because I really didn't want to spend that much money.

He recommend a shorter mast and manual winches, and they are coming up with a price. It needs to be pretty cheap IMO since I probably won't be able to recoup much (if any) of it, and I have a feeling the Factory installation will not be inexpensive.

Any idea what a "cheap" main sail and jib might cost to install? $10000? $20000? I have no idea.
I'm not a saily boat person, but I did sail a few dinghy's when I was young.

Even hi-tech sail boats can only make progress upwind towards their destination point (VMG) at about 4kts in perfect conditions.

Let's be positive and pencil in 3kts for your boat; or about 600revs idle on your engine or 1/2gal/hr or less?

And downwind?
Might give you a bit of a push and save that 1/2gal/hr.

Is it worth it?
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Old 03-19-2015, 03:02 PM   #39
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Factory? If the hard points are already built into the boat, 30K. There's something to be said about it being a "factory" job, but now it won't be either an SP or a PY model, and this will probably limit the market further. There is a known value for an SP and a PY. There won't be a known value for a one-off hy-brid. Too good of a boat to take a chance. Maybe in 15 years.
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Old 03-19-2015, 04:50 PM   #40
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Factory? If the hard points are already built into the boat, 30K. There's something to be said about it being a "factory" job, but now it won't be either an SP or a PY model, and this will probably limit the market further. There is a known value for an SP and a PY. There won't be a known value for a one-off hy-brid. Too good of a boat to take a chance. Maybe in 15 years.

Probably not worth doing now IMO.
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