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Old 12-29-2009, 05:39 AM   #1
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Continuing boat search

Hi folks,
Some of you may recall I recently sold my sailboat and now am in a search for a trawler/motor yacht. My budget allows me a boat in the $70,000 range which when allowing for taxs, survey, the inevitable bottom job, and other immediate fix issues, will allow me a purchase price of around $55 to $60,000. My criteria are diesel power, easy resale (no specialty boats), and no teak decks. Let me relate my search experiences up to this point.
First let me say in e-mail conversations with 2 recent boat buyers in the size and price range Im considering, purchase prices seem to be about 20 to 30% less than asking prices. If so, Im looking at boats advertised in the $70 - $75,000 range which puts me realistically in a boat of about 35 to 40 ft. Living on the gulf coast of FL there are so many boats that meet this criteria that its like a kid in a candy store trying to choose.


Armed with these assumptions and my own criteria here is what Ive experienced. With the recommendations of some members on this forum we started looking at 38 Bayliners. We looked at 2 that were somewhat disappointing, but a third was a bit more promising. The things we liked about this boat are its well thought out interior design, a lot of interior volume for a 38 sedan. The salon area is roomy with a salon table settee thats elevated allowing a 360 deg view out the windows. The fly bridge is large enough for 6 depending on the seating configuration which is different on each boat. My wife particularly likes the walk through transom that makes dingy access easy, particularly with a large dog. The smaller engines which range from 175 to 225 hp is a positive if fuel consumption is a concern, which it is for me. The downside to this boat is the rather long vertical ladder to the fly bridge, the lack of privacy due to the location of the two staterooms, the lack of any fine woodwork, and the fit and finish. One other member on this forum also mentioned the sea handling characteristics of a boat of this size that weighs only 17,000 lbs. Since we live in FL, we like to spend out cocktail hour(s) outside and with the rather small cockpit of the Bay 38 that may be a negative. But with the salon elevated and the full view it may actually work out OK to just open all the windows and still get that outside feeling. The fly bridge is available, but that high ladder is a concern.
I think the Bay 38 will be one of the few sedans that will work for us because most 38 to 40 ft sedans are built for fishing with a large cockpit area that takes away from the interior of the boat. It also seems most sedans have small fly bridges that are not favorable to cocktail hour(s) with friends. There are several Bay 38s within a days drive, so several to choose from.


The next boat we looked at was a Jefferson 37, which is a sundeck. This boat could not be more different than the Bay 38. The quality of the woodwork and the fit and finish was just outstanding. After looking at the Bay 38, it really took my breath away. The 300 hp Cummings were easy to get to and at my 63 I found engine access relatively comfortable. The staterooms on opposite ends of the boat are a plus. The weight at 22,000 lbs should give a more comfortable ride in rougher water but at the expensive of higher fuel consumption, which according to the owner is a little more than 1 mpg at 1400 rpm and 8 kts. The seller only owned the boat a year, it needed new fly bridge canvas and though the interior was in good shape except for the carpet the exterior needed a good cleaning and the hull needed waxing. It was sparsely equipped with no autopilot and no interior radio or TV. Interestingly it had no interior helm, which here in FL I consider a plus. The settee was too small and the seller mentioned some owners have replaced it with a couch. There was no other furniture in the salon which I found odd. So far I found everything workable until we consider the configuration of the outside of this sundeck. The sundeck itself was too small to be of any real use. You could possibly squeeze 4 people seated on the sundeck, but it would be crowded. The fly bridge was even worse. The helm station sat behind a bench seat that would seat 4 comfortably. However at anchor you would be seated in a line on the bench seat, not really favorable for conversation or card playing at anchor during cocktail hour(s). I think this boat would be more suited for cooler weather climates, not FL where we do almost all of our entertaining and relaxing outdoors. If the sundeck was larger and the fly bridge more conventional with U type seating, this boat could very well be the one.


After having looked at 4 boats, we are still in the preliminary stages.
Please everyone chime in with your opinions.
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Old 12-29-2009, 07:44 AM   #2
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RE: Continuing boat search

My Marine Trader 36 Sedan is for sale. Huge fly bridge, fully equipped.
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Old 12-29-2009, 10:40 AM   #3
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RE: Continuing boat search

Does it have teak decks?
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Old 12-29-2009, 11:39 AM   #4
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RE: Continuing boat search

Quote:
timjet wrote:

Does it have teak decks?
What's the problem with teak decks? (just curious)
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Old 12-29-2009, 04:10 PM   #5
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Continuing boat search

Teak decks, while offering the best deck surface in terms of wet and dry traction in my opinion, require maintenance as they get older.* The problem is rarely the wood itself unless a previous owner over-sanded them, cleaned them the wrong way, used teak "restorers" in an effort to keep them brown, or used any finish on them (oil, Cetol, varnish, etc.)

Assuming the wood has not been abused, the maintenance concerns the seams between the planks and the screws holding the planks down. * In recent years most high-end manufacturers who still offer teak decks glue them down instead of bedding and screwing them down. * But all boats built before the mid to late 90s will have screwed down planks.

The sealant in the deck seams can pull away from one or both sides of the groove allowing moisture to get down between the planks and the subdeck. And the hundreds of screws piercing the subdeck can provide pathways for this moisture to migrate down into the deck's core, which is usually plywood even on a fiberglass deck.

So maintenance consists of a) keeping the deck clean using the right kind of detergent, the right kind of cleaning tool, and salt water, b) repairing any seam sealant that shows signs of failing or separating, c) replacing any deck plugs that come out and, at the same time removing, applying sealant to, and replacing the deck screw before the new plug is glued in place.

It's easy work and, contrary to brightwork, is not a constant battle to keep up with. But many people either don't want to mess with it at all or think a teak deck is a constant chore and so are leery of them. So these folks prefer a boat without a teak deck at all.

Also, if one is in the tropics or a very sunny, warm climate like Florida or the Gulf, a teak deck can get very hot during the day which, if you like to boat barefoot, can be pretty uncomfortable.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 29th of December 2009 05:14:08 PM
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Old 12-29-2009, 05:14 PM   #6
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RE: Continuing boat search

Marin pretty much explained why I won't consider a boat with teak decks. Any boat I buy will be built in the 80's and this moisture problem explained by Marin is a real problem, especially in FL. Many people with knowledge of trawlers advise staying away from teak decks especially here in FL.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:39 PM   #7
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RE: Continuing boat search

I have removed the forward teak deck. The covered side decks and covered cockpit are still teak, but if you insisted I could remove them as well.
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Old 01-03-2010, 07:44 PM   #8
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RE: Continuing boat search

timjet*--* Look at*30 boats at a minimum before you get serious. easy to do over 4 to 6 months and very educational. Don't count on any support on this forum for a Bayliner, or from me anyway. On the engine questions, go to boatdiesel.com.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:55 PM   #9
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RE: Continuing boat search

sunchaser,

We will look at 7 boats over the next week. I have an additional 20 or so I want to look at before deciding, most here in FL. So many to choose from it gets a bit overwhelming at times.

Considering the Bayliner, I'm aware of it's reputation, but it was members of this forum who steered me to it. I've seen 3 so far and will look at 2 more over the next week. I think I'm aware of it's drawbacks, light boat, value construction, value reputation. But it is a lot of boat for the money, and if bought right and operated in a protected area as I intend to do, it should suit my purpose. Actually my desire is to get a sundeck and there are many Asian, well built around. My wife however really wants a sedan because of the ease of entry from a dingy. Most sedans here in FL are built for fishing with small flybridges and large cockpits which takes away from the interior room. They also for the most part have big engines, not economical for cruising at 10 kts. The 38 Bayliner sedan is a rare exception.

Hopefully I can convince her to be more open about the sundecks. If so, I've just got to figure out how to get a large dog from the dingy up to the deck. Perhaps a davit.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:57 PM   #10
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RE: Continuing boat search

my 2 cents, stay away from bayliner no matter what model year size anything
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:58 PM   #11
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Continuing boat search

Quote:
timjet wrote:

Considering the Bayliner, I'm aware of it's reputation, but it was members of this forum who steered me to it. I've seen 3 so far and will look at 2 more over the next week. I think I'm aware of it's drawbacks, light boat, value construction, value reputation. But it is a lot of boat for the money, and if bought right and operated in a protected area as I intend to do, it should suit my purpose.
I can point you to an absolutely hideous Grand Banks 36 (fiberglass no less) that never goes anywhere*and an extremely nice, well-maintained and cared for Bayliner of about the same size that has taken its owers up the Passage to SE Alaska a few times to say nothing of the waters in BC and Washington.* Both of these boats were in our marina although the owners of the Bayliner have since*moved it farther south in the Sound.*

Neither boat is for sale so far as I know--- I simply use them to illustrate that a boat with a "bad" reputation can be in better condition, be more reliable, and provide more pleasure for its owners* than a boat with a "good" reputation.

Compared to probably most people on this forum I don't have all that much boating experience and certainly not as much experience with a variety of makes and models.* But one thing I have learned and that is that every boat has to be judged solely on it's own merits.

Bayliner's "bad" repuation is based primarily, I think, on*several factors*which have nothing to do with the boat itself.* The company figured out how to manufacture a boat with wide appeal and sell it to a market that could not afford a brand with a "better" reputation.* So they've sold a ton of boats to a whole lot of people for a whole lot of years.* Many, perhaps most, Bayliner buyers tend not to be very experienced or*have an*interest in boating*that does not achieve the high level of detailed (the PC way of saying "anal") interest in navigation, operation, maintenance, anchoring, you name it, that the operators of "better" boats have or like to think they have.

Also, there is a tendency, I've noticed, in boating to blame the boat instead of*the operator.* Makes sense, since you can see the boat but you*rarely see, let alone meet, the operator.* So you have things like "Bayliners always*knock you over with their*huge wakes" or "Sea Ray owners are as*holes"*or "Bayliners are always breaking down" when in fact the problem is the operator always knocks over other boats with his wake, the*operator is*inconsiderate and cuts you off at the entrance to*the marina, and the operator doesn't give a rat's*a*s about mainteance so his boat is always crapping out.

I'm not*trying to imply that a Bayliner*has the*same quality as a Fleming.* But all boats have to meet the basic structural and floatation*standards that are set for them--- yes, I*know someone*will comment that*these standards are unrealistic or meaningless*but nevertheless Bayliner had to meet them the*same as Grand Banks did.* And if cared for and maintained, a boat of average quality can provide just as much reliable and fun boating as a high-end boat.* Better, I think, to be able to afford and and use an average boat than have the bragging rights of owning a high-end boat but not the money to use and enjoy it.

Timjet*should get whatever brand and model of*boat that*best fits his needs, desires, aesthetic requirements, layout requirements, capabilities, efficiency requirements, ego, wife's requirements,*and boat buying and operating budgets.* But I think it can be a mistake to rule out an entire make of boat--- particularly a make that has been around for a long, long time and provided a hell of a lot of pleasure to way more people than have bought Grand Banks or Flemings or Norhavns--- simply because of a repuation based largely on perception and the attitudes and behaviors of a number of that brand's*owers.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 4th of January 2010 09:00:42 PM
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:41 PM   #12
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RE: Continuing boat search

Albin43,

Please explain why we should not consider a 38 Bayliner. I'm not trying to defend the boat, just want to get all the opinions.
My wife and I looked at a Vista 40 today which is a Asian built sundeck. We both really liked this boat though it really needed a lot of work. We're keeping our minds open so any opinions will be appreciated.


Thanks
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Old 01-04-2010, 10:41 PM   #13
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RE: Continuing boat search

Marin,I read your post 3 times and read it to my wife once. You better than anyone I've come into contact with have summed up the reason one SHOULD enjoy boating. Not to impress but enjoy the many aspects of being on the water. One 38 Bayliner seller I talked to seemed unhappy to sell his boat, relenting to his wife who wanted a newer boat. A real pity since I could tell he really wanted to keep the boat.


I looked at a Vista 40 today, a boat I believe has a good reputation. Sadly the owner has not maintained the boat and it will need a ton of work and probably be a bit over our budget to get her in acceptable condition. We will look at a Bay 38 next week that is reputed to be in bristol condition by two different brokers. I believe this boat can be had for a bit under our budget.


Regardless of the reputation of the builder, each boat design has it good and bad points depending on the buyers use. My wife and I both love the sundeck design with the room on the sundeck, but also like the sedan style with the ease of entry from a dingy. We'll reconcile these different style boats in our minds now based on how we wish to use the boat rather than the reputation of the builder.
Thanks Marin for a great post.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:38 PM   #14
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RE: Continuing boat search

Isn't this whole thread getting a bit tiresome? For heavens sake why is this public?
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:36 PM   #15
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RE: Continuing boat search

Quote:
Daddyo wrote:

Isn't this whole thread getting a bit tiresome? For heavens sake why is this public?
????????

The dude is using this forum as a sounding board and trying to get as much information as possible. *I see nothing wrong with his post and, in fact, it is the main reason for forums like these.


AND....somebody else might learn something by reading all of this.

*
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:43 PM   #16
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RE: Continuing boat search

If you say so.
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Old 01-06-2010, 09:03 AM   #17
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Continuing boat search

I would advise not to push the sun deck if the wife/So does not like it as they are hard to board. Most females do not have the upper body strength required.* Try boarding a sun deck with one hand/arm full.* If you are looking at boats under 40ft you can expand your search as they are can be trucked or have it delivered. *

We were looking at 45ft Bayliners as they are a good value for the buck.* In fact the 45 Bayline was what we compared other boat to. Before you buy make sure you have the boat surveyed, make sure the SO/wife is 99.9% in agreement and she has the last final say.* Females tend to look easy to board, easy to move around in the boat, and creature comforts. So a boat that you think is great, she may not be so keen on.

Just like Bayliners teak decks bad reputation is because the owners did not take care of them. **The Eagle has teak decks and we love them. One of my wives reason for buying the boat was the teak trim and decks.** So if the teak decks are maintained/sound there is not reason not to look at the boat.* Evern if the boat does not have teak deck*the decks may not be that sound/strong?*******

So evaluate each boat on its merits to meet you needs/want and budget.* Shoot my wie went from a 45 ft bayline to a 58 ft non name ulgy trawler, so you might be surprise what you end up buying?


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 6th of January 2010 10:03:55 AM

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 6th of January 2010 10:04:44 AM
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Old 01-06-2010, 12:44 PM   #18
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RE: Continuing boat search

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:"We were looking at 45ft Bayliners as they are a good value for the buck.In fact the 45 Bayliner was what we compared other boat to."

I have never owned a 45 Bayliner but my best friend bought one and he was elated with the boat. I was surprised at the fit & finish and I also loved the boat. We cruised it in Southern Cal waters, with numerous trips to Catalina Island. (70 miles of open water in each direction.) To echo Phil, there's a lot of bang for the buck!

*
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:31 PM   #19
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RE: Continuing boat search

Just an update.
My wife fell in love with the sundeck on the Vista 40. This boat needs to much work, but I think she's warming up to the sundeck idea.
Phil, don't worry, she will have the last say.
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