Go Back   Trawler Forum > Trawler Forum > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-05-2013, 05:44 PM   #81
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,371
Oh I was not brand bashing, but there is a friendly revelry between the two owners groups. But then again..
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 08:33 PM   #82
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
I used to think, by flipping through magazines and looking on the internet, that the N62 was just the boat for me. Then I went on one (Ken Williams' old boat) after living on and Coastal Cruising my present boat for awhile. I thought I'd dove into a rabbit's warren. I can see why that couple would prefer hotels when the option was available. Not for the claustrophobic! A great boat to be underway in while crossing an ocean? yes, I think so. A great boat to live in? No thanks! It was no mystery to me why Ken left his in the Med and came back and bought a much bigger "BloatHavn" version.
__________________

__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 08:35 PM   #83
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post
Oh I was not brand bashing, but there is a friendly revelry between the two owners groups. But then again..
Yah - some people need to lighten up. On our dock we were really thankful last summer when a Searay showed up. It gave the Bayliner owners somebody to look down on.
__________________
R.J.(Bob) Evans
www.rjevans.org
www.travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:33 PM   #84
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
... Then I went on one (Ken Williams' old boat) after living on and Coastal Cruising my present boat for awhile. I thought I'd dove into a rabbit's warren. I can see why that couple would prefer hotels when the option was available. Not for the claustrophobic! A great boat to be underway in while crossing an ocean? yes, I think so. A great boat to live in? No thanks! It was no mystery to me why Ken left his in the Med and came back and bought a much bigger "BloatHavn" version.
At sea/underway, I want hand-holds within arm's distance. If one "boats" in a marina, have a boat laid out like a land-house.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 03:18 AM   #85
Senior Member
 
longcours62's Avatar
 
City: La Rochelle
Country: France
Vessel Name: HOA
Vessel Model: Long-cours 62
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 105
I have friend

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
You're probably right there on all issues.

Its kinda funny, this internet thing.

You can go on a forum and talk about your TT, which we all know have had their fair share of issues, some very serious and nobody knocks your boat.

Mention you have a Bayliner, even a large one like mine and some uninformed ding a ling will slam your boat for no other reason than brand bias.

The funny thing is that never happens in person. Walking the docks, we are all a community of boaters.

I am VERY THANKFUL that since coming here in 2010 as a guy looking for a large cruising boat, to today, that there has been very little brand bashing here on TF.

This is a great community, and I amp happy to participate.

BTW, the Bayliner Owners Club, where I moderate the Motoryachts forum was started many years ago to escape brand bashing. Now there are over 15,000 members. Many TF members came from the BOC, like myself as their boating moved to larger boats. Many here still participate in both forums.

TF is great because the discussions are not brand specific. This opens up allot more conversations about things all boat brands share in common.

He is the owner of same Bayliner ( Bay it's means baie in French ?)
The problem for real passagemaking is , in my point of view, the big volume of the cockpit and the size of the door in glass, and in moderate seas he must slow down even slowler than a passagemaker.( in bad weather it became "difficult")
If I must make a passage, sure I will not buy a boat like your , but in another hand 30 year ago a 9m boat with big windows and door cross the North Atlantic from USA to Paris ...

Our idea of a passagemaker is quiet different than your , but may be I am "paranoiac" !? Or "affraid by sea ?!

"Passagemaker" cherchez l'erreur ! - Trawler long-cours
longcours62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:29 AM   #86
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by longcours62 View Post
He is the owner of same Bayliner ( Bay it's means baie in French ?)
The problem for real passagemaking is , in my point of view, the big volume of the cockpit and the size of the door in glass, and in moderate seas he must slow down even slowler than a passagemaker.( in bad weather it became "difficult")
If I must make a passage, sure I will not buy a boat like your , but in another hand 30 year ago a 9m boat with big windows and door cross the North Atlantic from USA to Paris ...

Our idea of a passagemaker is quiet different than your , but may be I am "paranoiac" !? Or "affraid by sea ?!

"Passagemaker" cherchez l'erreur ! - Trawler long-cours
That's a cool looking boat! I remember Beebe in his book talking about the high desirability of having a boat that could easily be converted to running in the French canals. Having seen a few parts of them it sure makes sense. After all, what's the point of taking your boat somewhere via crossing an ocean and not enjoying every beautiful boating destination once you get there?
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:34 AM   #87
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
At sea/underway, I want hand-holds within arm's distance. If one "boats" in a marina, have a boat laid out like a land-house.
Exactly. Thus the range of boat designs from houseboat to coastal cruiser to passage maker. Horses for courses as we say at the track.

You don't need a rabbit's warren to have hand holds convenient, but they do lessen the distance you body or other objects can travel if the hold isn't so good.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #88
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
With regards to the interior spaces of a Nordhavn, a timely reminder of the dangers of rough seas can be found in the ongoing Bounty investigation. Prior tho the loss of the vessel the captain and at least one other crew member were severely injured when they were thrown violently about in a compartment.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 02:25 PM   #89
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
With regards to the interior spaces of a Nordhavn, a timely reminder of the dangers of rough seas can be found in the ongoing Bounty investigation. Prior tho the loss of the vessel the captain and at least one other crew member were severely injured when they were thrown violently about in a compartment.
Marin, where did you read that? There is no mention of that in the gCaptain blog that Charles Cullotta linked. Just that one guy was thrown from "port to starboard", no mention of the size of the compartment or even if he was in a compartment. Do you have a link to more detail? This really good reading.

By the way, in a bad seaway you could still do yourself some serious damage being thrown from once side to the other or fore to aft in the salon or pilot house of a Nordhavn 62 or 55, the two N's I have spent some time on beyond a few minutes at a boat show.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 02:57 PM   #90
Senior Member
 
IslandEagle's Avatar
 
City: Toronto & Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Island Eagle
Vessel Model: DeFever
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 232
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Marin, where did you read that? There is no mention of that in the gCaptain blog that Charles Cullotta linked. Just that one guy was thrown from "port to starboard", no mention of the size of the compartment or even if he was in a compartment. Do you have a link to more detail? This really good reading.

By the way, in a bad seaway you could still do yourself some serious damage being thrown from once side to the other or fore to aft in the salon or pilot house of a Nordhavn 62 or 55, the two N's I have spent some time on beyond a few minutes at a boat show.
Here's the quote from gCaptain:

Quote:
When Adam Prokosh fell from port to starboard on the tween deck and broke his back and ribs, he was instantly made incompetent as an able seaman.
As for being thrown: it can happen in smaller boats too. The wife of a good friend of mine was on a passage from Seattle to San Francisco on a 35' sailboat, an unexpected wave threw her into the table. She though she had broken a rib, although it turned out be be only a bruise. In any even, she was unable to move around for days, leaving my friend to run the boat single-handed and care for the kids 24 hours a day.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
IslandEagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #91
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
Thanks Scott, I missed the tween deck reference. Your story about the woman on the sail boat is well taken.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 04:53 PM   #92
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthenorth View Post
Yah - some people need to lighten up. On our dock we were really thankful last summer when a Searay showed up. It gave the Bayliner owners somebody to look down on.
But I would have a beer for them!
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 07:06 PM   #93
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
The captain was thrown across the compartment, too, at some point. and was smashed into a table. While he was able to get around afterwards he required assistance. This was in the reports about the sinking prior to the actual investigation articles Charles linked to.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #94
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,376
So how does the Bounty a boat that went down in a hurricane have anything with coastal cruising vs passage making ???

Passage makers might be tough boats but hurricanes have long accurate prediction times
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:57 PM   #95
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
The point had been made about the advantages and disadvantages of the relatively small interior compartments on passagemakers like Nordhavns. The injuries sustained on the Bounty illustrate the reason behind the use of smaller interior spaces on vessels that are intended to be able to deal with rough seas if while on a long ocean passage they encounter conditions from which they cannot run or are too far out to reach a safe haven in time. It does not require a hurricane to generate sea conditions that can be pretty violent for the occupants of an ocean-crossing boat.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 10:38 PM   #96
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
The point had been made about the advantages and disadvantages of the relatively small interior compartments on passagemakers like Nordhavns. The injuries sustained on the Bounty illustrate the reason behind the use of smaller interior spaces on vessels that are intended to be able to deal with rough seas if while on a long ocean passage they encounter conditions from which they cannot run or are too far out to reach a safe haven in time. It does not require a hurricane to generate sea conditions that can be pretty violent for the occupants of an ocean-crossing boat.
OK, thats viable.

I would venture to guess that the type of conditions that the bounty experienced far exceed the conditiones even most passafemakers ever get exposed to.

An unexpected squall or storm while crossing an ocean is one thing. Sustained hurricane force winds are altogether thing another.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:25 PM   #97
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post

I would venture to guess that the type of conditions that the bounty experienced far exceed the conditiones even most passafemakers ever get exposed to.

.
Agreed, but with weather and water, never say never. An ocean is an awfully big place at 7 knots or so and even the weather weenies get it wrong from time to time. A thousand miles from shore in the Pacific and if things change unexpectedly, there you are. Not much you can do about it except ride it out, which boats like Nordhavns are designed to do (up to a point).

I have never crossed the ocean in a small boat but I have been out in the middle of the Pacific (in Hawaii) on one many times. And even on a nice day, the big swells with wind waves on top of them, the waves often coming at you from a different angle than the long-range swells, can toss a boat around like you wouldn't believe.

Even among the local sportfishing crowd toes and legs and fingers and arms got broken on a weekly basis, knees got smashed into door frames, people lost their footing or grip on the ladders to the flying bridges and fell into cockpits, and so on. And all this was at medium trolling speeds, maybe seven or eight knots.

The boat (Uniflite) I fished on fell off the top of a wave one day about 30 miles off the north shore of Oahu which also pitched us into the trough between swells. So a vertical drop of maybe fifteen feet, and the hull hit so hard it cracked two stringers and sheared a motor mount. The two of us were up on the flying bridge and we were young and fit so we took the tremendous shock okay. Were that same thing to happen to me today I don't know if my spine could take the sudden compression without damage.

So stuff happens out in the middle of an ocean, even on nice days. Having lots of things to hold onto and short distances to be thrown across if you're going to be can be very beneficial, and companies like Nordhavn know this.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 11:42 PM   #98
Moderator Emeritus
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,996
This may demonstrate the versatility of boats, or perhaps ships. Anyone who visited Sydney will have seen the Manly ferries plying the 7 miles between the city and Manly, including crossing the Heads which open to the Pacific. Only in most severe weather are services suspended, TV news footage of progress in heavy weather is exciting .They are typically around 200ft in length, true double enders with prop and helm both ends.
The current ones were built here, but many predecessors were built in the UK and arrived on their own bottom. A good example is the beautiful South Steyne with her unmistakable lines, now a floating restaurant in Darling Harbour. People on passing ships were astounded seeing her transit the Suez canal, in company livery. The only other survivor is the Baragoola, built locally in 1922, currently afloat and hopefully in restoration.
These humble harbour ferries of 230ft,beam 41ft,draft 11ft,2 3200bhp diesels, carry thousands of commuters a day,yet the ferries on which they are based crossed oceans. The South Steyne regularly day cruised off Sydney on weekends, as well as fulfilling commuter duties. They are proven ocean going inshore ferries. The so called "coastal cruiser" has the ability to surprise.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 05:01 AM   #99
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,503
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
This may demonstrate the versatility of boats, or perhaps ships. Anyone who visited Sydney will have seen the Manly ferries plying the 7 miles between the city and Manly, including crossing the Heads which open to the Pacific. Only in most severe weather are services suspended, TV news footage of progress in heavy weather is exciting .They are typically around 200ft in length, true double enders with prop and helm both ends.
The current ones were built here, but many predecessors were built in the UK and arrived on their own bottom. A good example is the beautiful South Steyne with her unmistakable lines, now a floating restaurant in Darling Harbour. People on passing ships were astounded seeing her transit the Suez canal, in company livery. The only other survivor is the Baragoola, built locally in 1922, currently afloat and hopefully in restoration.
These humble harbour ferries of 230ft,beam 41ft,draft 11ft,2 3200bhp diesels, carry thousands of commuters a day,yet the ferries on which they are based crossed oceans. The South Steyne regularly day cruised off Sydney on weekends, as well as fulfilling commuter duties. They are proven ocean going inshore ferries. The so called "coastal cruiser" has the ability to surprise.
Well put, Bruce. Once upon a time, there wasn't such a distinction between passagemaker and coastal cruiser. The coastal cruiser became a passagemaker when the coastal cruiser went on a passage.....

The ability to go long range doesn't have to require a vessel of epic proportions or battleship capabilities. Kevin (ksanders) and I had a great chat yesterday, and agrees that it's just a factor of having time to pick a rough and weather window, along with the ovvious factors of vessel capability.

I believe that there are too many "experts" who haven't done a major ocean crossing (but will offer concrete data on how to do one)- they are the snobs that are manufacturer specific, or will argue that only certain types of vessels can undertake ocean voyages.

I figure we'll just go on our excursions, and send said "experts" a post card or email from a destination the "experts" said we couldn't possibly get to....
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2013, 07:52 AM   #100
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,446
My coastal cruiser has been in miserable offshore conditions on three occasions (read, from a standing position at the upper helm, the oncoming swell blocked my view of the horizon, among other cruddy sea states) and handled them with aplomb. Nobody ever got hurt, nothing broke. I wasn't at all happy that I put myself and crew and the boat in that situation, but as Marin said, forecasts can be wrong, stuff happens. We are pleasure boaters, in that order, and have become increasingly conservative in adhering to that maxim.

The primary elements that make my boat a coastal cruiser have to do with its design, which simply lacks the range to fully cross oceans. 2,3, 400 mile open water transits in non-storm conditions? No problem. I personally do not enjoy running at night, and so avoid those runs given the choice. We know or have met quite a few guys who captain big sport fishers who will regularly take the boats from Costa Rica to the DR to the Bahamas to Beaufort or Hatteras to Bermuda to Montauk in straight shots, perhaps requiring a fuel bladder in the cockpit to do it. But those boats are purpose built to ocean conditions, that's where they live, which is probably why they act like a bull in a china shop on the rare occasion they have to take the ditch.

You might better say that it is the captain that makes a boat capable of bigger things a coastal cruiser and marina hopper. We've seen plenty of Nordhavns and ocean-capable sail boats who are as much slaves to the magenta line as any Carver or Sea Ray, often with the pristine anchor in the pulpit to match.
__________________

__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012