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Old 03-02-2013, 05:49 AM   #41
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"and not capable of cruising our oceans. Especially when I know its not true."

The OCEAN requires a transit time measured in weeks ,not in hours.

It might seem like "forever" putting across a gulf of cold rough water for a day or so, but a day is a day , a gulf is just a gulf, with the Coasties ready with a tow line , emergency pump or Helo ride home.

Sure lots of boats have made long shore long trips , sailors have even circumnavigated and by waiting for the tight season , not seen 35K of breeze , all the way around.

The requirement for a rational ocean boat is the ability to be CAUGHT OUT and survive,
even tho you waited 5 months for the perfect weather window.

Many if not most of our fine coastal cruisers would not prosper even a modest 50K breeze and the resulting ocean waves for a few days.

Running from say Norfolk to Cape Cod will cross a tiny bit of the Atlantic and take a couple of days , but Ocean Voyaging it aint!

Having fun cruising our boats is the name of the game , but letting a wannabee think anything and everything with the name"Trawler" is a sea going vessel, capable of going anywhere is as disservice.

Ocean crossing is a serious business , with far different requirements from lakes,rivers, bays, gulfs , and sliding along the shore .

For folks that want a taste in the East Coast , just run out to Bermuda , only about 700 miles , but far enough to learn what ocean cruising entails.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:45 AM   #42
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As someone who is in the process of moving from a Grand Banks, which I consider to be pretty much the definition of a coastal cruiser, to a Nordhavn, which is an equally classic example of a passage maker, I'm happy to say why.

We love coastal cruising, but when we made a list of the places we want to go, we didn't feel the GB could safely and comfortably do it. Greenland and Iceland, for example, All the way up the Newfoundlan and Labrador coast, and perhaps the Northwest passage if I can convince my wife. The Aleutian island chain over to Russia and Japan. Around S.E. Asia. Pacific Island hopping. New Zealand. The whole Tiera del Feugo region of S. America. The Falklands. S. Georgia, and maybe the Antarctic Peninsula. The east coast of S. America, the Med, Norway and Sweden, Svalbard.

You pick the boat for the type of cruising you want to do, or you cruise where your boat lets you. But either way hopefully you are out having fun, and that's what matters.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:50 AM   #43
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FF...we know what you are saying is correct and we agree...go back to my first post.

Whar we are saying is there's plenty of cruising to be done in any kind of boat if you DON'T cross the oceans....

But in all fairness...if you don't mind being a little chilly and coordinating fuel....if you go up the east Coast of Canada, hop to Greenland, then to Iceland and the island to England beyond...I don't think you ever have to cross more than about 200 miles of open water.

Would I do it? Heck I didn't even like it on the USCGC Northwind (a 269' WWII class USCG Icebreaker)...but someone COULD do it with a lot less boat than most would recommend taking straight to England.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:56 AM   #44
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As someone who is in the process of moving from a Grand Banks, which I consider to be pretty much the definition of a coastal cruiser, to a Nordhavn, which is an equally classic example of a passage maker, I'm happy to say why.

We love coastal cruising, but when we made a list of the places we want to go, we didn't feel the GB could safely and comfortably do it. Greenland and Iceland, for example, All the way up the Newfoundlan and Labrador coast, and perhaps the Northwest passage if I can convince my wife. The Aleutian island chain over to Russia and Japan. Around S.E. Asia. Pacific Island hopping. New Zealand. The whole Tiera del Feugo region of S. America. The Falklands. S. Georgia, and maybe the Antarctic Peninsula. The east coast of S. America, the Med, Norway and Sweden, Svalbard.

You pick the boat for the type of cruising you want to do, or you cruise where your boat lets you. But either way hopefully you are out having fun, and that's what matters.

I know that my last post dicussed doing those expeditions in less than a true ocean crosser...but I think you are making a wise move as the weather windows in those high latitudes are usually a lot smaller, more fierce and not as predictable where there is more data.

So I would upgrade too if I was going to do it...but DOING it takes more than most people are willing to give. So only upgrade AFTER you are darn sure you are going to do it because as most have said here the creature comfort of the two boats for the money are just the opposite.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:05 AM   #45
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So only upgrade AFTER you are darn sure you are going to do it because as most have said here the creature comfort of the two boats for the money are just the opposite.
It's interesting you say that. As a preface, let me be clear that I'm talking about relatively new boats - say 2005 and newer. I actually find the cost, fit and finish, creature comforts, etc almost identical between similar size GBs and Nordhavns. I looked pretty hard at the GB Aleutians and Flemmings as part of the process. The only down side that I see to the Nordhavn compared to the other boats is that it's displacement speed only where the others can be pushed to 15 kts or so if you choose to do so.

Where do you see tradeoffs in creature comfort for like money boats. Nordhavn and Grand banks would be good examples since I'm familiar with both.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:31 AM   #46
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It's interesting you say that. As a preface, let me be clear that I'm talking about relatively new boats - say 2005 and newer. I actually find the cost, fit and finish, creature comforts, etc almost identical between similar size GBs and Nordhavns. I looked pretty hard at the GB Aleutians and Flemmings as part of the process. The only down side that I see to the Nordhavn compared to the other boats is that it's displacement speed only where the others can be pushed to 15 kts or so if you choose to do so.

Where do you see tradeoffs in creature comfort for like money boats. Nordhavn and Grand banks would be good examples since I'm familiar with both.
Actually have little experience with the Nordhavns...just what I have heard...not so much fit and finish as room..but that's the price you ay for a given design and seaworthyness/stabiity considerations.

If you like the boat no matter what..then it's just a new boat...but if you are giving something up...make darn sure as coastal cruising one hemisphere is tough enough and could last a lifetime...coastal cruising the entire Pacific via the Aleutians is very demanding and you would have to start pretty young...
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:35 AM   #47
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I know that my last post dicussed doing those expeditions in less than a true ocean crosser...but I think you are making a wise move as the weather windows in those high latitudes are usually a lot smaller, more fierce and not as predictable where there is more data.
Yes, I think a number of the places I described could be cruised in a CC, and we did consider it. It would have involved shipping the boat between major ports, then resuming cruising in a new region. We are in New England now and want to cruise the PNW up to Alaska. Shipping our boat out was an option, but quite expensive. And although its 600-1200nm range can get you pretty far, there were times way up in the Canadian Maritimes where I was getting a little nervous about fuel just because things can be pretty spaced out, and depending on how you align with the fishing seasons fueling can be easier or harder in different places. It was never a crisis, but we elected no to head up into Newfoundland because of range.

Other places I think you just can't get there in most CCs New Zealand, for example. And I wouldn't go to S. Georgia in a CC because of weather and fuel. You could get there, but I'm pretty sure there is no fuel available for your return trip. And crossing the atlantic and pacific I think just can't be done in most all CCs due to range.

Shipping a CC is certainly an option, but the costs add up fast. And many of the areas that we would ship through I'd actually like to cruise. Chartering is also an option, at least in some areas. But like others, we have put a lot of effort into making our boat the way we like it, and want to use it for our cruising.

But all this said, there is no doubt that there are zillions of great places to cruise in a CC. The number of places you can go far outnumber those you cannot reach.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:15 AM   #48
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Yes, I think a number of the places I described could be cruised in a CC, and we did consider it. It would have involved shipping the boat between major ports, then resuming cruising in a new region. We are in New England now and want to cruise the PNW up to Alaska. Shipping our boat out was an option, but quite expensive. And although its 600-1200nm range can get you pretty far, there were times way up in the Canadian Maritimes where I was getting a little nervous about fuel just because things can be pretty spaced out, and depending on how you align with the fishing seasons fueling can be easier or harder in different places. It was never a crisis, but we elected no to head up into Newfoundland because of range.

Other places I think you just can't get there in most CCs New Zealand, for example. And I wouldn't go to S. Georgia in a CC because of weather and fuel. You could get there, but I'm pretty sure there is no fuel available for your return trip. And crossing the atlantic and pacific I think just can't be done in most all CCs due to range.

Shipping a CC is certainly an option, but the costs add up fast. And many of the areas that we would ship through I'd actually like to cruise. Chartering is also an option, at least in some areas. But like others, we have put a lot of effort into making our boat the way we like it, and want to use it for our cruising.

But all this said, there is no doubt that there are zillions of great places to cruise in a CC. The number of places you can go far outnumber those you cannot reach.
It can be done...just not for the faint of heart...I read a story about a guy who has taken every one of his sportfish (medium size) to the Canary Islands on it's own hull. Both the Iceand route to Europe and the Aleutians to Russia/Japan could be done (because I think it has been) by a CC...but as I said...not for anyone and it does take meticulous planning (weather and fuel) as well as some coordination to make sure that fuel is available when and where you need it. Sometimes it takes extra money...so at some point.... as I said the better suited boat and still sticking to coastlines may be a smarter/more enjoyable move.

The main point I was making...the huge amount of time spent transiting to eotic places to me is tough and I'd rather cruise locally and enjoy every day rather than nail bite or be bored to tears. So a Nordhavn would always be a wrong choice fr me because my exotic cruising days I got from Uncle Sam and now I know I would never want to do it in a small vessel. If I could have done it 20 years ago...yes/maybe...but now I'll never be able to see all of the US I want to so I'll just get started here with a lot less boat but a lot more money to enjoy every day.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:31 AM   #49
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It can be done...just not for the faint of heart...I read a story about a guy who has taken every one of his sportfish (medium size) to the Canary Islands on it's own hull. Both the Iceand route to Europe and the Aleutians to Russia/Japan could be done (because I think it has been) by a CC...but as I said...not for anyone and it does take meticulous planning (weather and fuel) as well as some coordination to make sure that fuel is available when and where you need it. Sometimes it takes extra money...so at some point.... as I said the better suited boat and still sticking to coastlines may be a smarter/more enjoyable move.

The main point I was making...the huge amount of time spent transiting to eotic places to me is tough and I'd rather cruise locally and enjoy every day rather than nail bite or be bored to tears. So a Nordhavn would always be a wrong choice fr me because my exotic cruising days I got from Uncle Sam and now I know I would never want to do it in a small vessel. If I could have done it 20 years ago...yes/maybe...but now I'll never be able to see all of the US I want to so I'll just get started here with a lot less boat but a lot more money to enjoy every day.

Yes, I agree there are all forms of "extreme" boating where people circle the world in bath tubs etc. But short of extreme boating, I think these places are inaccessible in our CCs. I know they are to me and what I'm willing to try.

And I'm glad you found your sweet-spot for cruising. I think that's what we are all looking for. It just comes in different forms for different people. And as you point out, it can shift over our lifetimes. I really like hearing about the wide variety of things people like, don't like, do, don't do, etc. I don't think I would have done some of the trips Tony Flemming has done in his 65', but I really like reading and hearing about it.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:37 AM   #50
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From my son early this morning. In the Bering Sea aboard a 140' (single engine ) longliner.
Just maxed out the anemometer, harness required, horizontal snow, Good Night and hold on tight.

An earlier email said they'd been in 25'+ seas for a couple of days.



Trust me...he knows what 25' seas are.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:39 AM   #51
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Didn't really intend this to be a boat brand discussion, but thanks for all the support guys!

The real intent here is to let people that read this, many being prospective trawler purchasers know that there is a whole world of cruising out there that doesn't require a 3/4 million dollar passagemaker.

Personally I would have no problem taking my boat anywhere along any coastline. I would also be willing to make open water passages up to about 48 hours, which is in my opinion the extent of reliable weather prediction.

That opens up allot of areas that many people think you need a passagemaker to get to. It also allows many more people to dream the cruising dream and actually do it.

I am honest with myself. We've led a good life, but I am not and will not be able to ever afford 3/4 of a million, or even 1/2 million on a boat. Not and retire while I still have my health. Not and still retain my land based home.

But the cruising dream isn't out of reach, just because of this. We can all cruise almost anywhere in the boats we have... safely, and comfortably.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:06 AM   #52
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I'll jump in

Having owned and cruised two Bayliners and now living and hopefully cruising aboard a 36 plus year old Hatteras 48lrc I have a little insight into this subject. My first cruiser was a 28' Bayliner express cruiser which I trailed all over the west coast and cruised on it's bottom from Everett to Glacier Bay and back down the outside. My children were young and my work allowed me short vacations. We cruised most of the coast and most of the rivers and lakes on the western US. Two engines and drives wore out. We had a lot of fun on that 28' boat and managed to scare ourselves more than once but we saw a lot of the west coast. That boat fit our life style at the time perfectly. We moved up to the 4788 pilot house, like Keven I reasoned it would go pretty much anywhere. And it will given reasonable weather. That boat is a wonderfully designed boat from the living aspect, a little wet in rough conditions but very capable. The ability to kick it in the ass and cruise at 18knts allowed me to cruise to Monterrey from Sf in 6hrs and spend a weekend and come back to SF on the same weekend. Weather permitting. Trips beyond a hundred miles took bigger time commitments so I spent more time close to SF. No more towing down to Santa Barbara to cruise the Channel Islands for a long weekend, Or a spectacular week in the gulf Islands, or Lake Powell. My cruising was actually well, cut short. Now I have this wonderful old sea going yacht that I cruise at 6 knts, why not I use a third of the fuel I would at 10knts and slow is slow. So it spends a lot more time waiting for that major cruise to Alaska that is now postponed, thanks to the ChrisCraft project which is still ongoing and seldom leaves the dock because it's a whole day to just get to the Gate from Walnut Grove, and I'm besides the best part of the delta just tied to the dock. That old Hatteras is unbelievable in the ocean, the ride has to be experienced to be believed. The trip down coast in a average of thirty knts of wind was a non event, I cooked hot meals and we ate at a table in 12' seas. There is a difference when your boat has nine ft of freeboard at the bow and weighs 66,000 lbs. But are you going to use those capabilities and give up the flexibility that speed offers. Are you really going to do that dream trip, is your partner really up for the risk associated with open ocean, are you willing to expose your family members to these risks. When Flemming or the Nordhaven folks take these expeditions they are highly organized and often publicized campaigns, not spontaneous boat trips. As to Bayliner bashing, not by me. I have thousands of hours on them and they have always performed more than asked.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:17 AM   #53
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I have not read all the posts on this topic, but it is a good one.

In my experience it is all about passage planning and weather windows. But even then you can sometimes get caught out or have no choice but to face bad weather due to time constraints etc, and will get a hammering at sea. Even if that is the case, you can try to get the boat out of an area of extreme conditions and into an area with lessor conditions by using the Dashews techniques.
Passage making has gone from working out where the hell you are, to putting yourself in the best location for the prevailing conditions.
Regardless, if you sail long enough, eventually you will get caught with your pants down, which is the perfect time to revert to your black box!

A famous boating author, John Vigor, came up with the theory on how to play the winning hand when things go wrong on your boat or have to face some bad weather.

In a nutshell, each time you put in the effort to make seaman-like preparations before, during, and after getting underway, you get to deposit a point into an imaginary black box.

Down the road, when something unexpected occurs, points are withdrawn from your box. You just have to hope you have sufficient points to get you through.

After clocking up about 100,000 nm, I am a true believer in the black box!

Cheers.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:25 AM   #54
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When Flemming or the Nordhaven folks take these expeditions they are highly organized and often publicized campaigns, not spontaneous boat trips..
I have met and known many Nordhavn owners who do not publicize, they just go. They are not on TF nor seeking adulation via the general internet. They generally can be spontaneous because they and their vessels are already in the hunt so to speak. As example, read the Ice Dancer's blog sourced via Nordhavn website. During 2011 and 2012, without fanfare or horns they went 12,000 + miles counter clockwise around the ring of fire. With over 200 Nordhavns made, these silent stories abound.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:38 PM   #55
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"and not capable of cruising our oceans. Especially when I know its not true."

The OCEAN requires a transit time measured in weeks ,not in hours.

It might seem like "forever" putting across a gulf of cold rough water for a day or so, but a day is a day , a gulf is just a gulf, with the Coasties ready with a tow line , emergency pump or Helo ride home.

Sure lots of boats have made long shore long trips , sailors have even circumnavigated and by waiting for the tight season , not seen 35K of breeze , all the way around.

The requirement for a rational ocean boat is the ability to be CAUGHT OUT and survive,
even tho you waited 5 months for the perfect weather window.

Many if not most of our fine coastal cruisers would not prosper even a modest 50K breeze and the resulting ocean waves for a few days.

Running from say Norfolk to Cape Cod will cross a tiny bit of the Atlantic and take a couple of days , but Ocean Voyaging it aint!

Having fun cruising our boats is the name of the game , but letting a wannabee think anything and everything with the name"Trawler" is a sea going vessel, capable of going anywhere is as disservice.

Ocean crossing is a serious business , with far different requirements from lakes,rivers, bays, gulfs , and sliding along the shore .

For folks that want a taste in the East Coast , just run out to Bermuda , only about 700 miles , but far enough to learn what ocean cruising entails.

My friend, your post is exactly the kind of thinking this thread is all about.

You are lumping ocean crossing in with coastal cruising, and by doing so are exagerating the dangers of simple coastal cruising.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:08 PM   #56
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We try to be weather wise but when we do get caught out in something snotty I remind myself that the boat can take more than I can. So as long as I am more or less upright I figure its going to work out OK. My wife not so much. And the cat generally craps himself at the first sight of trouble and then buries his head under a pillow.

When we bought Gray Hawk we had big intentions of going down the coast, through Panama, etc. etc. We have since discovered that there's a lot of really neat stuff to see without ever leaving the Pacific Northwet. Maybe we'll run out of stuff to do here someday but I doubt it. The bigger issue for most of us is getting away from the dock. I look up and down the dock and see boats tied up that I have never seen untied in the 2 years we have been here. If we ever get to that stage I hope we have the brains to sell.

It took us a long time to buy Gray Hawk - probably more than 5 years in total but for sure 3 years of active looking. The first step in that process was to rule out any possibility that we did in fact want to cross oceans. I accept the spirit of the thread - that some vessels not normally thought of as ocean crossers are more capable than they are given credit for. There are however some real compromises that have to be made if you insist on ocean crossing capability - allocation of interior space is the most obvious compromise. Ultimately we decided that we didn't want to give up some of the coastal cruising liveability in favour of a capability that we would likely never utilize.
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Old 03-02-2013, 04:03 PM   #57
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B of the N,

That's it. What kind of boating is the most fun ?????? And that's the kind of boating we should do. Inland and a bit coastal for me.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:55 PM   #58
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I would love a walk in engine room!
Me too. But I'd rather have a "sit-in" room rather than a "crawl-in."

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Old 03-02-2013, 06:15 PM   #59
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I have met and known many Nordhavn owners who do not publicize, they just go. They are not on TF nor seeking adulation via the general internet. They generally can be spontaneous because they and their vessels are already in the hunt so to speak. As example, read the Ice Dancer's blog sourced via Nordhavn website. During 2011 and 2012, without fanfare or horns they went 12,000 + miles counter clockwise around the ring of fire. With over 200 Nordhavns made, these silent stories abound.
This is very true, and the number is up over 400 now. At any time, the chances are better than even that one is crossing an ocean somewhere in the world.
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Old 03-02-2013, 06:17 PM   #60
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I probably have the craziest Bayliner story. I have a relative that shipped a 28' Bayliner express from San Diego to Guam then drove the boat from Guam to the Philippines via Yap island. Did I think he was crazy and had a death wish? You bet. Not a smart thing to do but he did it successfully. Will he do it again? He said no. It was very scary he said. But the Bayliner came out unscathed.

I was in the Cebu City last week and saw the N62 pictured below. The marina folks told me it belonged to a Canadian couple who weren't staying aboard as they prefer to stay at a 5-star resort when available. The couple, I was told, plan to cruise the Philippine islands for a year before going to the next country. I think they're doing it the right way.
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