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Old 01-15-2011, 04:59 AM   #21
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Hawse holes that include a cleat are great. They can usually handle multiple large lines .

Yes one has to be careful not to kick the horn with your leg.

THe biggest advantage is the short distance from the hole and cleat means there is very little room for the line to stretch.

Since most lines do not take wear against a hard surface well, the fact that for most loads (under 10% of breaking) there will not be movement at all, the boat is much safer at anchor or slop bound.

A hawse hole to carry the bow anchors has the sane advantage , PLUS you don't have to clean muck off the anchor after every overnight.

That single midship cleat on the rail, and a pair aft , that can be accesses directly would be great for slip and lock working.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:46 AM   #22
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Like most MT's the hawse holes are well below the gunwale, and as you can see in my little avatar, I keep bow lines attached to avoid having to re-run the lines each time we tie up.

Word of painful experience: If possible, make sure the bow lines are shorter than the distance from the hawsehole to your props. Admiral once did a less than perfect tiedown of the line under way, and a brief rough sea took the line into the water. .... and the inevitable happened. Fortunately, no permanent damage.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:44 AM   #23
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

Don't like to strain gunnels with top applied cleasts, and find the hawse holes to be out of the way, clean, and very efficient. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it ! I think you are likely to find them more on heavier boats than light ones.
I have to agree with Old Stone's thoughts! *Our Monk is the first boat we've had with hawse holes with built in cleats....very nice to have clean decks to walk on without tripping on cleats. *

Our 36 has one such hawse/cleat at the foredeck, one amidships, and one aft just forward of the transom. *For us, since we will be going through locks regularly, cleat placement is important. *Our previous boat's "amidships" cleat was well forward such that if you tied off just on that cleat you would have the bow pushing into the lock wall (TN River locks have floating bollards that you tie off to with your amidships cleat). *Having a midships cleat also placed immediately outside the lower helm door also facilitates (hopefully!) being able to lock through single handed and makes it able to tie off the spring line quickly from the lower helm.
If I was to add one to our boat it would be great to have one aft, centered over the transom to facilitate towing a dingy, jetski, etc. but I can just as easily put together a harness for that and we don't plan on doing much towing.

*
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:00 PM   #24
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Cleats and chocks

We keep all our eight of our dock lines permanently attached to the boat (loop ends on the cleats), both port and starboard. Our bow lines are 30 feet long, our spring lines, two attached to each midships cleat, are 35 feet long, and our stern lines are 30 feet long. All of them except the bow lines can reach the props if they fall in the water, so we make sure they don't fall in the water. Any lines we are not using, and all the lines when we're running, are looped and locked to the rail so they are ready for immediate use but can't accidentally fall in the water.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 01:01:37 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:06 PM   #25
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Cleats and chocks

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I assume you have Lehmans, so maybe the slow rotation at the props saved you from a catastrophy.
The props attached to a Lehman are not turning slow enough to save anything from anything.* Go down and watch the shafts turning and they are spinning plenty fast.* The props will suck in lines as readily as any other drive.* As to what happens if a line gets wrapped on a prop and binds up tight enough to stop the shaft, the shock can be enough to break one or more or the Lehman's motor mounts if the coupler or something in the transmission doesn't break first.* I've read several accounts of this happening to Lehman owners.* Big buck repairs.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 01:29:49 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:30 PM   #26
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Cleats and chocks

I guess I was lucky. The wrap didn't stop the prop. There was such a short length of the line left to wrap, it just snagged around a few turns and then proceeded to "melt" itself around the propshaft. There was no vibration or any other signs of trouble, and I wasn't even aware of it until we were ready to pull into a marina. Once we saw the line was caught, we were able pull the unsnagged part free, but knew from the frayed end that something was likely still down there. I had diver go down and cut it off, and I still have the ring of melted poly as a souvenir and reminder.

Marin, at the time this happened, my Admiral/mate only had about a year of line-handling experience with a trawler, and as I recall she needed to run aft aft after pulling in the bowline and just forgot to secure it. She learns fast.* We both learned fast, I guess.

-- Edited by ARoss on Saturday 15th of January 2011 01:34:33 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:34 PM   #27
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Cleats and chocks

Just curious--- why do you use polypropylene for a dock line?* By most people's way of thinking, that is about the worst kind of line to use as a dock line.* No stretch and rapid deterioration and weakening when exposed for long periods of time to UV.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 01:36:37 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:37 PM   #28
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Not poly - I misspoke. Three strand nylon. It still melts!
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:43 PM   #29
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RE: Cleats and chocks

I prefer braided nylon.
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:49 PM   #30
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

I prefer braided nylon.
I prefer double braided nylon myself, but finding myself ignorant of splicing techniques, am transitioning to three strand. I bought a 600' spool, and can now customize my lines to whatever length I choose. A captain friend told me long ago to make each specific line just long enough that it won't quite reach the prop. Next time I am hauled out, I will make a complete new set, and color code for each position.

*
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:57 PM   #31
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Quote:
Carey wrote:


markpierce wrote:

I prefer braided nylon.
A captain friend told me long ago to make each specific line just long enough that it won't quite reach the prop. Next time I am hauled out, I will make a complete new set, and color code for each position.


Doesn't seem practical.* The quarter springs and stern lines will end up being very short, too short to be useful?

*
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:02 PM   #32
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

*
Carey wrote:

*
markpierce wrote:

I prefer braided nylon.
A captain friend told me long ago to make each specific line just long enough that it won't quite reach the prop. Next time I am hauled out, I will make a complete new set, and color code for each position.

*
Doesn't seem practical.* The quarter springs and stern lines will end up being very short, too short to be useful?
Not so. They work just fine. You can always rig a storm spring in a big blow. It's about eighteen feet from my center cleat to my prop.
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:10 PM   #33
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Cleats and chocks

We use 5/8" braided nylon for our dock lines because they are easier to handle and are more flexible for looping and locking onto a handrail, which is what we do. But I have been told and have read in many places that three-strand nylon is actually better for mooring lines (as well as anchor rodes, of course). The three-strand is apparently stronger and has more stretch that braid.

We've had some nylon lines of various thicknesses made up for use in our anchor bridle and also for use on a mooring buoy. All of these are braided and have stainless thimble's in the loop end to accept a karabiner or shackle. We had a local marine shop splice the thimbles into the lines--- it's not expensive and it's not something I have any interest in learning to do. I have spliced a loop in three-strand but I don't have the patience to do it on a regular basis.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:12:05 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:14 PM   #34
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Quote:
Marin wrote:

We use 5/8" braided nylon for our dock lines because they are easier to handle and are more flexible for looping and locking onto a handrail, which is what we do. But I have been told and have read in many places that three-strand nylon is actually better for mooring lines (as well as anchor rodes, of course). The three-strand is apparently stronger and has more stretch that braid.

We've had some nylon lines of various thicknesses made up for use in our anchor bridle and also for use on a mooring buoy. All of these are braided and have stainless thimble's in the loop end to accept a karabiner or shackle. We had a local marine shop splice the thimbles into the lines--- it's not expensive and it's not something I have any interest in learning to do. I have spliced a loop in three-strand but I don't have the patience to do it on a regular basis.

-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:12:05 PM
********* Marin,** What is an anchor bridle?** JohnP

*
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:45 PM   #35
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Cleats and chocks

My docklines may be less elegant than professionally spliced braided nylon, but I have never had a well-tied bowline loop pull loose from my cleats. I have read the analysis of how a knot is only x% as strong as a splice, but with the 5/8"* 3-strand rope I am using, I don't expect a failure that wouldn't have happened with a spliced line.* The upside is when I see a little chafe, I can cut/retie the line and eliminate the weak spot without needing to get a pro resplice it.**

Since I am fortunate to have full-length floating walkways on both sides of my* slip, I rountinely use 8 lines.. ..2* springs and bow/stern lines on each side, so I am (knock on wood)* not going anywhere in a blow.


-- Edited by ARoss on Saturday 15th of January 2011 02:51:44 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:32 PM   #36
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RE: Cleats and chocks

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JohnP wrote:Marin,** What is an anchor bridle?** JohnP
Sorry, snubber bridle.

*
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Old 01-15-2011, 02:56 PM   #37
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Oh,* I should have known.* Thanks
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:10 PM   #38
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Al Ross,Very YES. Use bowlines and vary the size of the loop. Dosn't look as good but works better mostly. One could even loop the whole line and use the bowline loop to synch the whole thing tight like a trucker over his load. One could use the next size smaller line and still be stronger and w more stretch. That would work well around bull rails where its somewhat difficult to make a line tight. Glad you brought it up Al.
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Old 01-15-2011, 03:24 PM   #39
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Cleats and chocks

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My docklines may be less elegant than professionally spliced braided nylon, but I have never had a well-tied bowline loop pull loose from my cleats.

I don't know much about knots.* I think I know three--- a bowline, a square knot, and a trucker's knot, which is the knot I use more than any other on the boat.* But I recall being told and perhaps even reading that while a bowline is a very useful knot, indeed, it can only truly be trusted when there's pressure on it.* If there isn't any pressure on it, they apparently can "wiggle" or work themselves apart if the line they're in is moving around.

Which would seem to make them a less-than-ideal knot for a dockline because there are times--- perhaps many times, when the knots are not having any pressure applied to them but the lines are moving.* What do you think?

*


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 15th of January 2011 04:25:30 PM
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:41 PM   #40
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RE: Cleats and chocks

Don't compute*



but




I think I've heard that too.
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