Circumventing the tyranny of low-effort marine services
- Thread starter Gilhooley
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
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Just as there are good yards/marinas and bad ones, there are good customers and ones that perhaps you will take a while to 'get back to', or to fit into your schedule. Or frankly regard as more trouble than they are worth.
I have no idea where the OP has his NT42, but doubt it is anywhere near Greenland. I suspect he has burnt, or at the very least annoyed, some service providers. Maybe with due cause. But I cant help thinking there is something extreme or at least not being fully outlined here.
There are ways of handling things to get good outcomes even if you are seriously p.ssed off. eg Hats off to hmason for his outboard issues recently.
FF
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"I agree, 98% of boat mechanics are ****. I have used and know of 2 or 3 that are dependable and reasonable. All others suck."
But not usually on purpose.
Mostly its a total lack of knowledge , what best practices are and many times even the purpose of the job.
Most yard employees start as blocker on the travel lift.
Graduate to bottom washing with a power washer , and eventually get promoted to bottom painting.
Expecting skills like wood repair , varnishing , top side painting , engine R&R , shaft work, electrical, air cond or refrigeration at a marina is silly..
There are a few large (pri$y) yards with large staff and many skilled employees , but they are the rare exception and may need 500-1000 miles to get to.
But not usually on purpose.
Mostly its a total lack of knowledge , what best practices are and many times even the purpose of the job.
Most yard employees start as blocker on the travel lift.
Graduate to bottom washing with a power washer , and eventually get promoted to bottom painting.
Expecting skills like wood repair , varnishing , top side painting , engine R&R , shaft work, electrical, air cond or refrigeration at a marina is silly..
There are a few large (pri$y) yards with large staff and many skilled employees , but they are the rare exception and may need 500-1000 miles to get to.
He said he's not in Greenland.
And at the risk of being un-American, the northern European "Protestant work ethic", that raises workaholic perfectionism above all else in life, suits the needs of money-driven capitalism, but is not actually a great way to organize a happy and truly productive life from a more well-rounded and human-centered context.
The vast majority of people in this world do not in reality have the opportunity, nor the desire to become members of the global 1%. Most do not strive to become machines optimizing their wealth-generating efficiency.
Having enough food and water, your health, some clothes and a roof over your head is "enough" for most people. What stimulates your brain and nourishes your soul very rarely has anything to do with how you make your living.
In the end "security" from money is a myth; good relations with family, friends and neighbors, a respected place in a true community, a perhaps spiritual peace of mind - these have far greater value than mere economic "success' for a healthy human being.
IMHO
And at the risk of being un-American, the northern European "Protestant work ethic", that raises workaholic perfectionism above all else in life, suits the needs of money-driven capitalism, but is not actually a great way to organize a happy and truly productive life from a more well-rounded and human-centered context.
The vast majority of people in this world do not in reality have the opportunity, nor the desire to become members of the global 1%. Most do not strive to become machines optimizing their wealth-generating efficiency.
Having enough food and water, your health, some clothes and a roof over your head is "enough" for most people. What stimulates your brain and nourishes your soul very rarely has anything to do with how you make your living.
In the end "security" from money is a myth; good relations with family, friends and neighbors, a respected place in a true community, a perhaps spiritual peace of mind - these have far greater value than mere economic "success' for a healthy human being.
IMHO
Wxx3
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I think fro some reason, you are thinking boating is different any any other walk of life, hobby, job, etc.
Everything you describe goes on everyday everyplace.
In my moving around the USA and world the last 40 years, my biggest stress was always to find a decent mechanic for the car and a decent barber. and then when I found one, no matter how inconvenient, I would return, because if I didn't, I'd surely pay the price.
I edited what I wrote earlier because it was wrong.
In the USA we live in a throw-away culture. Nothing is fixed, but parts are replaced, be it a circuit board or a printer.
Mechanics today are taught that "repairing" is replacing. It does slove the problem afterall.
Being in Vietnam this month opens my eyes to a society that fixes everything and throws nothing away. When the crappy Chinese thing breaks, they rebuild it here. Doesn't matter what it is, it's rebuilt, as they throw nothing away.
But on our older boats in particular, there are still things that simply need to be "fixed". I suffered for months with non-functioning air conditioning because i was afraid of not getting good advice and getting ripped off.
Finally because I was impressed with the marina I am in in Golfito, I asked for advice.
He sent the AC guy who found the capacitor that blew up and replaced it for $70.
But these diagnostic skills are becoming more and more rare. It'be been going on a long time.
Nuff Said.
Good luck
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diver dave
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I started boating in SE Florida, and eventually found myself in the widest spectrum of boatyards there are. That is, from Cracker Boy/Playboy DIY yards to Direcktor and everything in between. i saw far more good/bad correlation based on the person doing the work, than any relationship to the yard.
In the end, I do my own work whenever possible. Boats, cars, house. But, I know my limitations and work within my means. I don't do car bodywork, because I suck at that. I do mechanical, electrical, electronic work on my stuff. Its satisfying. Its NOT satisfying to pay someone to do work that I can do better. My income isn't much/any more than typical shop rates, so it doesn't make sense for me to be a unpaid project manager, dealing with the job that I can do in the first place.
Now, if/when my capability declines to the point where I need to depend on others, well, I don't know. I think it will be trouble to keep my same expectations. I will say this. There are true gems for craftsmen out there. I find that they typically don't work for a boss. I've come across individual aluminum welders, wood craftsmen, mechanics and glass workers that are absolutely great, in an ocean of idiots. The trick is to find them.
Curiously, I also fly out at a moments notice to fix junk, shipped to far away lands, designed by flunkies sitting at desks too much.
In the end, I do my own work whenever possible. Boats, cars, house. But, I know my limitations and work within my means. I don't do car bodywork, because I suck at that. I do mechanical, electrical, electronic work on my stuff. Its satisfying. Its NOT satisfying to pay someone to do work that I can do better. My income isn't much/any more than typical shop rates, so it doesn't make sense for me to be a unpaid project manager, dealing with the job that I can do in the first place.
Now, if/when my capability declines to the point where I need to depend on others, well, I don't know. I think it will be trouble to keep my same expectations. I will say this. There are true gems for craftsmen out there. I find that they typically don't work for a boss. I've come across individual aluminum welders, wood craftsmen, mechanics and glass workers that are absolutely great, in an ocean of idiots. The trick is to find them.
Curiously, I also fly out at a moments notice to fix junk, shipped to far away lands, designed by flunkies sitting at desks too much.
Let me begin by saying that you are not alone, I've heard everything you've said countless times in my nearly three decade career in the marine industry, where I've worked as a mechanic, electrician, boatyard manager and consultant. The lack of professionalism and competency is a problem that has dogged the industry for much longer than I've been in it. Having said that, depending on where you live, it's not alone. Have you had an HVAC tech or plumber to your home recently? The only time I hire one is when I'm out of town, in July, the air-con fails and my wife threatens to go to a hotel. In most cases when I speak to the tech on the phone I find I know more about HVAC than he or she does.
There is, therefore, no doubt this industry needs a wake-up call, it’s a drum I’ve been pounding for years. Improvements have come, among them formal certification for techs, but they are too little and too slow. Indeed, the bulk of the problem is education and competency, both technical and business-related. I know this because I work in other countries where there exist a formal marine industry apprenticeship program. The result is, most folks in the trades, even the young ones, know what they are doing. Here in the US, sadly, it’s mostly OTJT, for which boat owners pay full rates. It’s simply wrong and it’s guaranteed to generate the sort of anger and resentment you’ve expressed.
In guiding boat owners through these rocks and shoals I’ve found the best medicine is prevention. Carefully and systematically evaluating yards and contractors, using a specific set of criteria, you can get a bullet point list here Cracking the Code: Working with Boat Yards and the Marine Industry Part II | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting can go a long way toward avoiding heartache.
Ksanders said you should expect to pay more for a job than you’ve been told by the yard. Again, having run a yard I’d respectfully disagree, however, I fully understand why he’d say this, it’s so often very true. I’ve had clients say, "I ask the yard for a price, I triple it and then I know how much I can expect to pay”. That’s reprehensible but all too commonly true. Unless I wanted to argue with my customers, I always gave them as complete a price picture as possible, excluding something like the cost of the haul out for a propeller repair, or the cost of waste removal for fuel tank cleaning was simply asking for an argument. In fact, I quoted 85% of the work I did and as a result almost never had a billing dispute. I’d much rather have a boat owner disappointed over a quote than furious about a bill after the work was complete.
Tom.B speculated that the problem lies with greedy yard owners. While there are no doubt such yard owners out there, I can say from experience it’s an incredibly tough business to make money, if you do everything right, which is very rare, you can expect to make 10% or 15%. Overhead for a squared away yard is astronomical, especially if you invest in out of the area hiring (I hired and paid to move folks nationwide), training and retaining good staff, for which you must offer competitive pay and benefits. Outside major metropolitan areas skilled marine techs and boat rights can expect to make a good living, often better than those with college educations these days, most of those who worked for me owned homes rather than rented, drove newer cars (newer than mine often), and had money to go on vacation with their families. There are always those who squander their income and blame others, most didn’t. On the other hand I feel sorry for those who work in metro areas (I started my career in one and didn’t look back after leaving) because it’s almost impossible to pay them enough to live reasonably well, the cost of doing business is simply too high, a burden that trickles down to boat owners, by the way. I do endorse his practice of showing up unannounced, however, fro spot checks.
Bottom line is, as much as I don’t like it, it’s a caveat emptor business, and with the economy on the upswing it will only get more challenging, as there is once again a nearly endless supply of customers for incompetent yards and contractors to consume. Do your due diligence, expect to pay more for competency, experience and standards compliance, inspect what you expect, be present while the work is being done if you have that luxury, and get quotes and establish deadlines where ever possible.
There is, therefore, no doubt this industry needs a wake-up call, it’s a drum I’ve been pounding for years. Improvements have come, among them formal certification for techs, but they are too little and too slow. Indeed, the bulk of the problem is education and competency, both technical and business-related. I know this because I work in other countries where there exist a formal marine industry apprenticeship program. The result is, most folks in the trades, even the young ones, know what they are doing. Here in the US, sadly, it’s mostly OTJT, for which boat owners pay full rates. It’s simply wrong and it’s guaranteed to generate the sort of anger and resentment you’ve expressed.
In guiding boat owners through these rocks and shoals I’ve found the best medicine is prevention. Carefully and systematically evaluating yards and contractors, using a specific set of criteria, you can get a bullet point list here Cracking the Code: Working with Boat Yards and the Marine Industry Part II | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting can go a long way toward avoiding heartache.
Ksanders said you should expect to pay more for a job than you’ve been told by the yard. Again, having run a yard I’d respectfully disagree, however, I fully understand why he’d say this, it’s so often very true. I’ve had clients say, "I ask the yard for a price, I triple it and then I know how much I can expect to pay”. That’s reprehensible but all too commonly true. Unless I wanted to argue with my customers, I always gave them as complete a price picture as possible, excluding something like the cost of the haul out for a propeller repair, or the cost of waste removal for fuel tank cleaning was simply asking for an argument. In fact, I quoted 85% of the work I did and as a result almost never had a billing dispute. I’d much rather have a boat owner disappointed over a quote than furious about a bill after the work was complete.
Tom.B speculated that the problem lies with greedy yard owners. While there are no doubt such yard owners out there, I can say from experience it’s an incredibly tough business to make money, if you do everything right, which is very rare, you can expect to make 10% or 15%. Overhead for a squared away yard is astronomical, especially if you invest in out of the area hiring (I hired and paid to move folks nationwide), training and retaining good staff, for which you must offer competitive pay and benefits. Outside major metropolitan areas skilled marine techs and boat rights can expect to make a good living, often better than those with college educations these days, most of those who worked for me owned homes rather than rented, drove newer cars (newer than mine often), and had money to go on vacation with their families. There are always those who squander their income and blame others, most didn’t. On the other hand I feel sorry for those who work in metro areas (I started my career in one and didn’t look back after leaving) because it’s almost impossible to pay them enough to live reasonably well, the cost of doing business is simply too high, a burden that trickles down to boat owners, by the way. I do endorse his practice of showing up unannounced, however, fro spot checks.
Bottom line is, as much as I don’t like it, it’s a caveat emptor business, and with the economy on the upswing it will only get more challenging, as there is once again a nearly endless supply of customers for incompetent yards and contractors to consume. Do your due diligence, expect to pay more for competency, experience and standards compliance, inspect what you expect, be present while the work is being done if you have that luxury, and get quotes and establish deadlines where ever possible.
I agree with Dauntless on the replace rather than repair mentality, but with modern electronics with surface mount chips it's almost impossible to actually repair a circuit board. I think a bigger problem is that most techs either don't have the skill or desire to actually diagnose a problem. It's much easier to simply start replacing parts until they luck into the one actually causing the problem. Of course at that point you end up paying for a lot of time but also parts that did not need replacing.
GoneFarrell
Guru
Gilh,
Have you considered or tried chartering a boat for a couple of trips each season? You would get the freedom on the water that being a skipper provides without the hassles you are dealing with presently. Clearly there is something you value about boating, maybe focus on that, find a way to maximize whatever that is.
Given the trouble you're having finding help that can meet your expectations, your declining health/mobility (that gets to all of us sooner or later, its happening to me), your available time for this stuff and the amount your shelling out now for slip fees and crappy yard work, provisioning a charter boat and casting off for a while might be the way for you to go.
Knowing your skills and standards, you'd bring back a charter in better shape than when it left the dock!
If just futzing/messing around with the boat is important, then a path forward for the stuff you can't do that provides the level of skills and value that you provide your customers needs to be found. I don't have the answer for that just now.
I have the answer for me and my boat here in "the ditch." I'm real happy with the guys in the boat yard out my starboard window. I do most of my own work, as I have mech/elect/wood/paint skills set like yours. If your Greenland is in my neighborhood then we should have further discussions.
As a former project manager and PE wet stamp on big jobs, I learned to either do the work or see that it gets done, can't do both, leads to those 100hr weeks you referred to. I learned that managers live on average 5 to 7 years less than "normal" workers too. And unfortunately, I witnessed proof of that.
I maintain a house in the PNW, a casita in baja, 7 motorcycles, 1 quad, a car & SUV, 2 trailers, 2 small boats, my big boat, an outboard, multiple small engine tools and relationships with my family/friends/gal, all my choice.
Oh, and we have something else in common; I never pushed my dirt bike out of woods/desert in over 40 years either!...
...I took parts/tools/whatever back into the forest or desert and fixed 'em!
I'll leave you with this stuff, most of which you probably already know...
"Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence. Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision."
Dollars just allow us to look to a more capable person to restore the objects we depend on and/or enjoy. Tools, common sense, and a willingness to learn not only support our devices — they support us.
The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content thenceforward with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting-place.
If loud pipes saved lives, then ambulances would run straight pipes instead of lights and sirens.
Have you considered or tried chartering a boat for a couple of trips each season? You would get the freedom on the water that being a skipper provides without the hassles you are dealing with presently. Clearly there is something you value about boating, maybe focus on that, find a way to maximize whatever that is.
Given the trouble you're having finding help that can meet your expectations, your declining health/mobility (that gets to all of us sooner or later, its happening to me), your available time for this stuff and the amount your shelling out now for slip fees and crappy yard work, provisioning a charter boat and casting off for a while might be the way for you to go.
Knowing your skills and standards, you'd bring back a charter in better shape than when it left the dock!
If just futzing/messing around with the boat is important, then a path forward for the stuff you can't do that provides the level of skills and value that you provide your customers needs to be found. I don't have the answer for that just now.
I have the answer for me and my boat here in "the ditch." I'm real happy with the guys in the boat yard out my starboard window. I do most of my own work, as I have mech/elect/wood/paint skills set like yours. If your Greenland is in my neighborhood then we should have further discussions.
As a former project manager and PE wet stamp on big jobs, I learned to either do the work or see that it gets done, can't do both, leads to those 100hr weeks you referred to. I learned that managers live on average 5 to 7 years less than "normal" workers too. And unfortunately, I witnessed proof of that.
I maintain a house in the PNW, a casita in baja, 7 motorcycles, 1 quad, a car & SUV, 2 trailers, 2 small boats, my big boat, an outboard, multiple small engine tools and relationships with my family/friends/gal, all my choice.
Oh, and we have something else in common; I never pushed my dirt bike out of woods/desert in over 40 years either!...
...I took parts/tools/whatever back into the forest or desert and fixed 'em!
I'll leave you with this stuff, most of which you probably already know...
"Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence. Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision."
Dollars just allow us to look to a more capable person to restore the objects we depend on and/or enjoy. Tools, common sense, and a willingness to learn not only support our devices — they support us.
The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content thenceforward with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting-place.
If loud pipes saved lives, then ambulances would run straight pipes instead of lights and sirens.
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Cottontop
Senior Member
Dude, if you've put in 100hr weeks since 1990, you're not an *******, you're an idiot. And I say that in as loving a way as possible.
ranger58sb
Guru
Good rant. Wouldn't say all that applies only to the boating world... although we've usually been fairly pleased with our various service guys. (Who have been well-screened, well-vetted...)
Some options, not all-inclusive:
- buy a boat that better suits you as is (i.e., requiring no major mods)
(ideally one that never needs fixing)
- charter instead of owning
- start your own marine services company (or companies)
- buy an existing marine services company (or companies)
- hire a boat manager, let him/her worry the issues
- hire your own marine service guy
- move somewhere else, where you might have more/better service options
- start doing your own boat work (become a marine service provider)
- import boat labor from elsewhere (e.g., fly in...)
- reduce the scale of individual boat work you want to hire out (sometimes easier to arrange and oversee...)
- et cetera
And the catch-all: some combination of above.
IOW, you do something different, if you desire a different result.
But also... and I think I'd like all those other options better... consider that if boating is so stressful... might indeed be better to just get out of boating.
OTOH, would some other hobby be equally stressful?
-Chris
Last edited:
Northern Spy
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Frank Zappa knew where it was at...
Flakes! Flakes!
Flakes! Flakes!
They don't do no good
They never be workin'
When they oughta should
They waste your time
They're wastin' mine
California's got the most of them
Boy, they got a host of them
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
They got the Flakes
Flakes! Flakes!
They can't fix yer brakes
You ask 'em, "Where's my motor?"
"Well it was eaten by snakes . . ."
You can stab 'n' shoot 'n' spit
But they won't be fixin' it
They're lyin' an' lazy
They can be drivin' you crazy
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
(Take it away, Bob. . .)
I asked as nice as I could
If my job would
Somehow be finished by Friday
Well, the whole damn weekend
Came 'n' went, Frankie
(Wanna buy some mandies, Bob?)
'N'they didn't do nothin'
But they charged me double for Sunday
You know, no matter what you do
They gonna cheat 'n' rob you
Then they'll send you a bill
That'll get your senses reelin'
And if you do not pay
They got computer collectors
That'll get you so crazy
'Til your head'll go through th' ceilin'
Yes it will!
I'm a moron 'n' this is my wife
She's frosting a cake
With a paper knife
All what we got here's
American made
It's a little bit cheesey,
But it's nicely displayed
Well we don't get excited when it
Crumbles 'n' breaks
We just get on the phone
And call up some Flakes
They rush on over
'N' wreck it some more
'N' we are so dumb
They're linin' up at our door
Well, the toilet went crazy
Yesterday afternoon
The plumber he says
"Never flush a tampoon!"
This great information
Cost me half a week's pay
And the toilet blew up
Later on the next day ay-eee-ay
Blew up the next day WOO-OOO
We are millions 'n' millions
We're coming to get you
We're protected by unions
So don't let it upset you
Can't escape the conclusion
It's probably God's Will
That civilization
Will grind to a standstill
And we are the people
Who will make it all happen
While yer children is sleepin',
Yer puppy is crappin'
You might call us Flakes
Or something else you might coin us
But we know you're so greedy
That you'll probably join us
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
Flakes! Flakes!
Flakes! Flakes!
They don't do no good
They never be workin'
When they oughta should
They waste your time
They're wastin' mine
California's got the most of them
Boy, they got a host of them
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
They got the Flakes
Flakes! Flakes!
They can't fix yer brakes
You ask 'em, "Where's my motor?"
"Well it was eaten by snakes . . ."
You can stab 'n' shoot 'n' spit
But they won't be fixin' it
They're lyin' an' lazy
They can be drivin' you crazy
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
Swear t'God they got the most
At every business on the coast
(Take it away, Bob. . .)
I asked as nice as I could
If my job would
Somehow be finished by Friday
Well, the whole damn weekend
Came 'n' went, Frankie
(Wanna buy some mandies, Bob?)
'N'they didn't do nothin'
But they charged me double for Sunday
You know, no matter what you do
They gonna cheat 'n' rob you
Then they'll send you a bill
That'll get your senses reelin'
And if you do not pay
They got computer collectors
That'll get you so crazy
'Til your head'll go through th' ceilin'
Yes it will!
I'm a moron 'n' this is my wife
She's frosting a cake
With a paper knife
All what we got here's
American made
It's a little bit cheesey,
But it's nicely displayed
Well we don't get excited when it
Crumbles 'n' breaks
We just get on the phone
And call up some Flakes
They rush on over
'N' wreck it some more
'N' we are so dumb
They're linin' up at our door
Well, the toilet went crazy
Yesterday afternoon
The plumber he says
"Never flush a tampoon!"
This great information
Cost me half a week's pay
And the toilet blew up
Later on the next day ay-eee-ay
Blew up the next day WOO-OOO
We are millions 'n' millions
We're coming to get you
We're protected by unions
So don't let it upset you
Can't escape the conclusion
It's probably God's Will
That civilization
Will grind to a standstill
And we are the people
Who will make it all happen
While yer children is sleepin',
Yer puppy is crappin'
You might call us Flakes
Or something else you might coin us
But we know you're so greedy
That you'll probably join us
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
We're comin' to get you, we're comin' to get you
Last edited:
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Go Moon Unit!
Padeen
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When you compare Steve's comment:
"if you do everything right, which is very rare, you can expect to make 10% or 15%."
With what is clearly a dissatisfied customer base, it seems like a pretty clear case of widespread pricing misalignment.
My experience started with looking for reasonable pricing/good work and has devolved to settling for the least level of incompetance. At this point, I'd pay 1.5x standard regional rates just to know that the work would be done correctly, completly and substantially on time, but i haven't yet found that yard in Seattle.
On the surface, marine services seem like a good business opportunity: weak competition and a lot of pricing power. As always, the devil is in the details...
"if you do everything right, which is very rare, you can expect to make 10% or 15%."
With what is clearly a dissatisfied customer base, it seems like a pretty clear case of widespread pricing misalignment.
My experience started with looking for reasonable pricing/good work and has devolved to settling for the least level of incompetance. At this point, I'd pay 1.5x standard regional rates just to know that the work would be done correctly, completly and substantially on time, but i haven't yet found that yard in Seattle.
On the surface, marine services seem like a good business opportunity: weak competition and a lot of pricing power. As always, the devil is in the details...
foggysail
Guru
I read the opening post twice and not sure I fully understand everything. So some questions--
Why worry about the "universe?" That is too big a problem to even concern yourself with. Did you work/contribute to the yard's business growth over years? Is this the same yard others firmly warned you to avoid but you worked hard for its growth?
Your boat is now on the hard......at the yard? If so can you get it moved elsewhere because the yard has (at least in our country) legal right to refuse outside contractors from doing any work on their property?
"I have made the effort to engage in ways that also protect me. My company does business on multiple continents and avoiding lousy service providers on larger projects has its own methodology... progressive validation of the quality/biz practices working your way from small projects that don't sting too much if the guy's a bum up to the high-dollar jobs. Never front-end load the trust unless you love getting screwed. Trust is always earned.
Are you referring to the company you own or are an employee of? The goals and business practices of companies are not all equal. Some target growth, some try to find buyers, others have a goal to maximize profits. But in any case, I think you should concern yourself with the specific problems related to the company you have asked to repair your boat.........nothing else, it muddles the soup.
So my take is you have problems that prevent your boat usage. What actions are necessary to be done to get the boat fixed.
1) Get the boat off the subject marina's property and hopefully he does not have a lien on it. This yard does not appear interested in making your boat operational.
2) Find independent talent/workers and get cost estimates along with a schedule to do the work. DO NOT PAY IN ADVANCE, pay for material purchased and work performed, not going to be performed.
3) Focus on YOUR problem, forget the current marina along with the universe's problems
Why worry about the "universe?" That is too big a problem to even concern yourself with. Did you work/contribute to the yard's business growth over years? Is this the same yard others firmly warned you to avoid but you worked hard for its growth?
Your boat is now on the hard......at the yard? If so can you get it moved elsewhere because the yard has (at least in our country) legal right to refuse outside contractors from doing any work on their property?
"I have made the effort to engage in ways that also protect me. My company does business on multiple continents and avoiding lousy service providers on larger projects has its own methodology... progressive validation of the quality/biz practices working your way from small projects that don't sting too much if the guy's a bum up to the high-dollar jobs. Never front-end load the trust unless you love getting screwed. Trust is always earned.
Are you referring to the company you own or are an employee of? The goals and business practices of companies are not all equal. Some target growth, some try to find buyers, others have a goal to maximize profits. But in any case, I think you should concern yourself with the specific problems related to the company you have asked to repair your boat.........nothing else, it muddles the soup.
So my take is you have problems that prevent your boat usage. What actions are necessary to be done to get the boat fixed.
1) Get the boat off the subject marina's property and hopefully he does not have a lien on it. This yard does not appear interested in making your boat operational.
2) Find independent talent/workers and get cost estimates along with a schedule to do the work. DO NOT PAY IN ADVANCE, pay for material purchased and work performed, not going to be performed.
3) Focus on YOUR problem, forget the current marina along with the universe's problems
FF
Guru
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"In the end "security" from money is a myth; good relations with family, friends and neighbors, a respected place in a true community, a perhaps spiritual peace of mind - these have far greater value than mere economic "success' for a healthy human being."
What is missing here is PRIDE in ones self . !
With welfare programs stacked to pay a lifestyle that would take earning $50K a year in many northern states there is little "need" to work to eat.
So "what me worry" becomes the highest standard of touch labor, skilled or unskilled.
Getting fired means a year in the hammock with pay , before looking for another "job".
Individual contractors can not work in many yards due to invented walls.
Insurance , workers comp, "fees" (kickback to the yard) all make it difficult to hire an individual.
R&R , a throw away mentality then becomes the least expensive method to maintain many items.
What is missing here is PRIDE in ones self . !
With welfare programs stacked to pay a lifestyle that would take earning $50K a year in many northern states there is little "need" to work to eat.
So "what me worry" becomes the highest standard of touch labor, skilled or unskilled.
Getting fired means a year in the hammock with pay , before looking for another "job".
Individual contractors can not work in many yards due to invented walls.
Insurance , workers comp, "fees" (kickback to the yard) all make it difficult to hire an individual.
R&R , a throw away mentality then becomes the least expensive method to maintain many items.
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If I were as stressed out about boating as you appear to be I would not be boating. Time to try gardening. If you are in fact working 100 hr weeks then you are not a relaxed person. Boats should be a relaxing experience. Boats require maintenance. I have also found boatyards in general provide poor service. I make an effort to find sole proprietors whenever possible. It's not always possible. I'm not going to get all worked up about it.
Relaxxxxxxxxx.....
Relaxxxxxxxxx.....
Lou_tribal
Guru
I would add that many things are by design not fixable and must be replaced and this in the purpose of selling parts and labor...
L.
FF
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" Boats require maintenance."
Sure PM is always required , but by installing a better than the el cheapo crap from the boats assembler , the jobs can be reduced 1 by 1 as better gear is properly installed.
Sure PM is always required , but by installing a better than the el cheapo crap from the boats assembler , the jobs can be reduced 1 by 1 as better gear is properly installed.
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Older boats in particular were not often designed or built with R&M in mind. This results in difficult access and high labour charges when things need to be repaired or replaced, as they inevitably will do.
Many folks are used to house or car repair cost regimes, and struggle to adjust to the situation often found on boats. So they think they are being ripped off. Maybe sometimes they are. Their solution is to find someone 'who will do it for a reasonable cost', hard to do and more often than not a quick fix/shoddy job results. Repaired to a price point.
My view is do it right, do it once. It will cost you. In the long run it will be cheaper provided it is on a boat you will own long term. I have found places in both the USA and Australia that give me high quality results. I dont think those places are rare at all.
Many folks are used to house or car repair cost regimes, and struggle to adjust to the situation often found on boats. So they think they are being ripped off. Maybe sometimes they are. Their solution is to find someone 'who will do it for a reasonable cost', hard to do and more often than not a quick fix/shoddy job results. Repaired to a price point.
My view is do it right, do it once. It will cost you. In the long run it will be cheaper provided it is on a boat you will own long term. I have found places in both the USA and Australia that give me high quality results. I dont think those places are rare at all.
Alabama Boater
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Do you get what you paid for??
There are boat owners that have no idea about boat repair. If some system is not working or the engine will not start find “someone” to fix it. They only know that the original issue may no longer there but paid for extraneous work not necessarily needed as the “repair person” could easily milk the cow. As an example, when I bought my boat in Fort Lauderdale, I was given the receipts for $48K of repairs over a 14 month period during 2013 and 2014. I though “wow” upgrades and PM. I then started to analyze what was done. 1) over 1/3 of the cost was repeat repairs … not repaired properly the first time so the owner paid twice. They had an excuse and he had no idea!! 2) repairs billed but not done. Issue – owner complained of toilet smell when cycling vacuflush. Repair person -holding tank replacement - leaking … tank $700.00, cut out center engine compartment floor, remove old tank, fit new and plumb, replace floor - $1800. NOT done - some cuts in flooring visible through engine hatch but vacuflush worked with no smell (I could see new tank vent line) 3) Issue - starboard engine running 10 degrees hotter at cruise than port. Repair person – heat exchanger needs to be cleaned and temp regulators replaced. R&R heat exchanger - $1500 + antifreeze. Replace temp regulators $700 + antifreeze !! Rebuild raw water pump $600. Original paint still on heat exchange end cap and assembly bolts.(new wire spiced into wiring harness going to temp sender, looks like new sender) Don’t know about temp regulators but raw water pump was newly painted.
What is interesting is that owner just kept paying and paying, the same service company. $2500 estimate - $2000 deposit - $6000 final bill. Then he sold the boat. It may be an extreme case but I did not take long to see the scam. My estimate is he got $16K of actual work for $48K!!
There are boat owners that have no idea about boat repair. If some system is not working or the engine will not start find “someone” to fix it. They only know that the original issue may no longer there but paid for extraneous work not necessarily needed as the “repair person” could easily milk the cow. As an example, when I bought my boat in Fort Lauderdale, I was given the receipts for $48K of repairs over a 14 month period during 2013 and 2014. I though “wow” upgrades and PM. I then started to analyze what was done. 1) over 1/3 of the cost was repeat repairs … not repaired properly the first time so the owner paid twice. They had an excuse and he had no idea!! 2) repairs billed but not done. Issue – owner complained of toilet smell when cycling vacuflush. Repair person -holding tank replacement - leaking … tank $700.00, cut out center engine compartment floor, remove old tank, fit new and plumb, replace floor - $1800. NOT done - some cuts in flooring visible through engine hatch but vacuflush worked with no smell (I could see new tank vent line) 3) Issue - starboard engine running 10 degrees hotter at cruise than port. Repair person – heat exchanger needs to be cleaned and temp regulators replaced. R&R heat exchanger - $1500 + antifreeze. Replace temp regulators $700 + antifreeze !! Rebuild raw water pump $600. Original paint still on heat exchange end cap and assembly bolts.(new wire spiced into wiring harness going to temp sender, looks like new sender) Don’t know about temp regulators but raw water pump was newly painted.
What is interesting is that owner just kept paying and paying, the same service company. $2500 estimate - $2000 deposit - $6000 final bill. Then he sold the boat. It may be an extreme case but I did not take long to see the scam. My estimate is he got $16K of actual work for $48K!!
AusCan
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I haven't yet been disappointed by work done on my boat, but I've done about 95% of it by myself. I did get a contractor to replace & upgrade my standing & running rigging and I was very happy both with the quality of work and the price. The only other work I farmed out was the fabrication of my fuel tanks. Again - good workmanship and price as per quote. In both cases the contractor was someone I trusted or recommended by someone I trusted.
Maybe that's the secret. Trust. It takes a bit of time to build up trust, but often boat owners are willing to hire anyone who says they can fix it in time for the holidays.
Maybe that's the secret. Trust. It takes a bit of time to build up trust, but often boat owners are willing to hire anyone who says they can fix it in time for the holidays.
Andy G
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Yes, it's a tricky business alright.
FWIW, my approach over the years has been to build up a personal relationship with those who keep the boat afloat & moving forward. This has cost a not inconsiderable amount of good whisky & copious amounts of beer in & around Christmas, but it does have its rewards.
FWIW, my approach over the years has been to build up a personal relationship with those who keep the boat afloat & moving forward. This has cost a not inconsiderable amount of good whisky & copious amounts of beer in & around Christmas, but it does have its rewards.
BruceK
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I wrote something thoughtful, long, and detailed. But, reconsidering all the OP has said, it won`t help. It`s time to get out of boating.
AusCan
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Actually, I'm guessing Mr Gilhooley might be from the US west coast, but likes to be the mystery man.
Andy G - That tried and proven method of quality control always works well.
Andy G - That tried and proven method of quality control always works well.
Yes but it may well have been more helpful to others with a different approach/personality.
