Cheap sailboaters

[DPTrainor]

Again your experience with sailboaters isn't mine.


You can learn to move a sailboat under sail in a day. Doesn't mean you know marlinspike, rigging, weather, rules, courtesies.....etc...etc...

In a day? Took me maybe 5 years to be truly competently skilled in all aspects. Others less time and some more. But this is Newport, RI one of the sailing capitols of the US, so the bar is high, I think it may be a regional experience also. We the kind that on a Sunday afternoon study Bowditch Chapter 9 Tides and Currents, for example. Constant learning and honing skills, especially sail trim.

 

[psneeld]

Again...your are comparing top tier to the average joe...sailor or not. I never said you could become proficient in a day...but I could teach many how to get moving in the right direction in a day and based on what I have seen, there are more than a few of that type sailors out on the water.


I know some great, respectful, careful powerboaters (probably quite a few sailboaters too) that never even heard of Bowditch.


Last time I picked it up was in USCG Officer Candidate school...1977...and since then, after a career in the USCG, 5 years teaching captains licensing, 13 years teaching NJ Boating cerification, 20 years private instruction, 15 years as an assistance towing and commercial captain, dozens of deliveries....etc..etc....

Nope, haven't touched Bowditch since...no need to. Being highly "educated"in maritime theory doesn't make you a good captain....being a good captain does.


Many here don't know the nav rules and appendices by heart, they might agree that doesn't make them a bad captain as many rules aren't used by everyone, every day.


Probably why the USCG makes you carry them, not recite them.

 

[Bigsfish]

DPT

Most sailboats in my area are power boats with a mast.
As Ted alluded to, why does a sailboater in a channel keep moving at 6 to 7 knots so a power boat has to bump it up to ten or more just to pass?

I have no dod in this fight as I came from both power and sailing as a young age but I think sailboaters are their worst enemy.

Just my SSO.

 

[DPTrainor]

Again...your are comparing top tier to the average joe...sailor or not. I never said you could become proficient in a day...but I could teach many how to get moving in the right direction in a day and based on what I have seen, there are more than a few of that type sailors out on the water.


I know some great, respectful, careful powerboaters (probably quite a few sailboaters too) that never even heard of Bowditch.


Last time I picked it up was in USCG Officer Candidate school...1977...and since then, after a career in the USCG, 5 years teaching captains licensing, 13 years teaching NJ Boating cerification, 20 years private instruction, 15 years as an assistance towing and commercial captain, dozens of deliveries....etc..etc....

Nope, haven't touched Bowditch since...no need to. Being highly "educated"in maritime theory doesn't make you a good captain....being a good captain does.


Many here don't know the nav rules and appendices by heart, they might agree that doesn't make them a bad captain as many rules aren't used by everyone, every day.


Probably why the USCG makes you carry them, not recite them.

Very Impressive credentials! Well, you would know - I think generalizations as usual are not useful, as you would agree. I am self taught. 40 years sailing in and around NE waters. But I am still learning... I think continual education: Theory, practice, learning, doing, broadening and deepening knowledge and skills is obviously a good thing. And expanding experiences on the water. All good.

For the new comers, we help them, teach them, but perhaps there should be an exam for boaters - a license - before they place key into ignition and drive away. But, that is another whole topic.

Fair Winds, Respectfully, Dan

 

[DPTrainor]

DPT

Most sailboats in my area are power boats with a mast.
As Ted alluded to, why does a sailboater in a channel keep moving at 6 to 7 knots so a power boat has to bump it up to ten or more just to pass?

I have no dod in this fight as I came from both power and sailing as a young age but I think sailboaters are their worst enemy.

Just my SSO.

Probably regional. Here is Newport / Narragansett Bay, you don't really see too many sailboats motoring at all - as they are having too much darn fun heeled over sailing down the bay

As to passing a sailboat. 6-7 knots is typically max hull speed whether under sail or not. Passing would be 1 or 2 blasts on horn depending upon which side you intend to over take. If sailboat under power, they should make way for you. Again education is ultimately the key. We need more education out there for all.

 

[MYTraveler]

Mooring balls should be free. Before I am nailed on the wall to say this, what is the cost for setup of a mooring ball, and with 35$ a night how many moorings needed to have a return on investment? Moreover you get make money by the service you may bring to the people moored and by making mooring free you attract people that would got ashore and spend money in the surrounding establishments developing local tourism business. Ok I know I am a dreamer but I saw some places where they cluttered an anchoring spot with mooring balls so you cannot anchor anymore and you have to pay the price to stay overnight... is it fair?
There may be some reason to force people to get a mooring like marine parks but most of the time it is not.

Sorry for my special point of view

L.

Wouldn't it be great if everything were free, or at least "fairly" priced? For many, it is hard to resist the temptation to wish for government to step in to correct these injustices, rather than rely on the free enterprise system to correct the vast majority of the unfair circumstances we encounter every day. Maybe things are different in Canada, but experience here in the US is that governmental regulation of pricing never improves economic efficiency. And using government to make the world "fair" will end in disaster.

I, too, apologize for my special point of view.

 

[BandB]

In a day? Took me maybe 5 years to be truly competently skilled in all aspects. Others less time and some more. But this is Newport, RI one of the sailing capitols of the US, so the bar is high, I think it may be a regional experience also. We the kind that on a Sunday afternoon study Bowditch Chapter 9 Tides and Currents, for example. Constant learning and honing skills, especially sail trim.

He didn't say anything about truly competent, he said learn to move the boat under sail.

 

[Bigsfish]

MYT

Oh no, not more government regulation and more SNAFUs.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Here's a boat that I don't think paid to pull up on the beach, but I don't think snuck it by anyone.

http://www.newsherald.com/news/20170524/barge-washes-ashore-at-st-andrews-state-park

 

[DPTrainor]

He didn't say anything about truly competent, he said learn to move the boat under sail.

what does that mean "move the boat under sail"

 

[BandB]

what does that mean "move the boat under sail"

It means get on the boat, put the sail up, and leave the dock. That's all psneeld was saying. Nothing about competent. Nothing necessarily about even making it back in. There are thousands of purchasers of sailboats who have never operated one, but jump aboard and just start sailing. Sail forums encourage that. They're the untrained sailboaters just like the powerboater who buys a boat and then takes off with no training.

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[kev_rm]

$35 a nite for $500 in equipment and effectively surplus real estate. I need to get into the mooring ball business.

 

[markpierce]

Typical sailboater (motoring):



What sailboaters should do:

 

[AlaskaProf]

This whole subject is like arguing whether the players in the NBA are better or worse than the players in the NFL.

Maybe, but National League baseball is demonstrably superior.

 

[DPTrainor]

It means get on the boat, put the sail up, and leave the dock. That's all psneeld was saying. Nothing about competent. Nothing necessarily about even making it back in. There are thousands of purchasers of sailboats who have never operated one, but jump aboard and just start sailing. Sail forums encourage that. They're the untrained sailboaters just like the powerboater who buys a boat and then takes off with no training.

I suspect, in reality it is much more likely that some (minority) first timer boater buys a power boat, places key in ignition, powers up and drives off, with little or no knowledge and training.

In our area most of the sailors grow up from young age, sailing sunfish, lasers, J24s, .. before buying and sailing larger yacht with crew. But not always. Generalizations are not helpful.

 

[markpierce]

My pre-teen boating experiences were few, but consisting of a Snipe (sailboat), row boat, and open-boat outboard. During teenage years raced on my father's 28-foot sloop. Sailing was easy peasy (as in tacking, jibing, sail trimming, and so on and so forth.) No complex plumbing, electrical, electronic, and pneumatic systems to deal with.

 

[Opu]

Does the owner have to do the maintenance? LOL
Is it possible to rent the mooring out?

A 50' mooring rents for about $70 per night. Winter rates are less. The owner doesn't get any of that; it all goes to the city. You can't own the moorings around the rest of the island. You lease those moorings for an annual fee plus the cost of maintaining the mooring. For whatever you paid (purchase or lease) you get a guaranteed spot whenever you want it. This pays off if you use it for a few nights per month. I know a few people who leave their boat at the island all summer and commute to and from the island on a shuttle (AKA cattle boat). If you're not using the mooring the Catalina Island Company can rent it out and take all of the rental revenue.

The wait time to get a mooring lease depends on which harbor or cove you want and the size the mooring will handle. Normal wait times run from a few years to more than ten years.

 

[AusCan]

Typical sailboater (motoring):



What sailboaters should do:

Actually, they are motoring in both photo's.

 

[Bigsfish]

Not a very good investment to my mind.

 

[FF]

"Being highly "educated" in maritime theory doesn't make you a good captain..."

Double the angle off the bow for a LOP is nice after an EMP takes out the GPS.

Red over Red , Captain in the head,, is nice to understand when it appears dead ahead.

One can operate a car and not know a spark plug from a crankshaft.

But to operate a vessel , Knowledge Is Power.

 

[psneeld]

"Being highly "educated" in maritime theory doesn't make you a good captain..."

Double the angle off the bow for a LOP is nice after an EMP takes out the GPS.

Red over Red , Captain in the head,, is nice to understand when it appears dead ahead.

One can operate a car and not know a spark plug from a crankshaft.

But to operate a vessel , Knowledge Is Power.

Never said you didn't have to know the stuff you need to get by every day...I said being a good captain is about being good.....which to means knowing what you need to know well enough to apply it.

It also means actually doing it...lots of boaters may know what to do and still fail to do what would be best.

And no, the average boater that one encounters in coastal cruising does not have to be a mechanic, a old school navigator and hopefully is cautious enough to steer clear of unusual situations for the most part. Yes red over red is important, bet I know more than a few licensed captains that might have forgotten it.

But none of that is really necessary to go out on the water for the day and be safe and happy.....maybe 30 plus years ago...but not in today's boating wold of daytime, clear weather, good forcasting, assistance towing, electronics, etc...etc....

The reason many of us think there are more chuckleheads out there impeding or waking isn't because of book knowledge or theory....it's often arrogance or indifference.

The big powerboat blowing by is because they can...they get yelled at all the time but still keep doing it. The sailor without their radio on is indifferent...doesn't care...but expects no wake. Or they are too poor to buy one, but then never turn around and arrange a pass by hand signal or horn.

So I still content that while a lot of "sailors" start young and grow up passionate about boats (me included)...there are a LOT of cruising sailors that have bought medium to large sailboats as their first and headed out on a romantic notion...with little or no clue.

 

[Larry M]

Not a very good investment to my mind.

Sounds like the boat I own but it sure is fun. :lol:

 

[danderer]

I started this thread (I'll take the blame for it) for this reason:

I've recently seen comments--here I believe, but possibly in other forums--about sailboaters being cheap and specifically skipping out on paying for dockage. When I saw the Fleming appear to do that I thought it was a good basis for an ironic commentary about this behavior being unique to sailboats.

I hoped to get two results: First, an acknowledgement that this wasn't a trait of only sailors. Second, I suspected someone would chime in with "..but you don't KNOW they didn't pay." Quite true. And I figured folks would then realize that was also true of the sailboats they had cited previously.

No way I expected this thread to go on so long. I've learned a couple things in the process:

To borrow a current phrase, we're more tribal than I expected. There are more folks happy to talk in us-vs-them terms that I would have expected. I find the older I get the less patience I have for this perspective.

I've also noted that a LOT of people here come from (or have) a significant sailing background. I suggest we keep that in mind when making derogatory comments that group. You're not just being negative to some group somewhere--you're calling out a lot of members here. That typically isn't received well.

 

[Bigsfish]

I have a good friend with the largest hose on Marathon (ocean side) with large docks, he spends winters there as he has homes in Manhatten, Long Island, London. Every year his staff has to chase off docked there using his elect and water. Everyone has been one type of boat and from one country.

Just sayin!

 

[JLD]

I come from a small sailboat background and IMHO you can't just hop on a sailboat and go. Ironically, I think it takes more skill to operate a smaller sailboat than a larger one, which is opposite of powerboating.

Annapolis Sailing School had/has a great three day course for beginners. When Dad was planning to buy his first sailboat 30+ years ago, he enroll the whole family (himself, Mom, Sis, and I) in their course. It took three days to understand basic navigation, handle the lines (mainsail and jib), and learn to dock the boat under sail.

There is something truly liberating about sailing and harnessing the wind to get you from point A to B. Often it really is the journey and not the destination that is important. Small boats are fun to sail in that you really need to be attentive to the environment. In a small sailboat, it is fun to go fast (all relative as speed really is dependent of the wind and hull length) and yet, not get blown over by a gust of wind from an unexpected direction.

Regarding radios, on small sailboats they are often left on, but are located just inside the cabin and not usually within arm's reach of the captain like at the helm of a powerboat.

Regarding wake, it just bad manners to speed past and throw up a huge wake at any other boater. We use to often see idiots do this, especially going in the channel, to both sailboats and other powerboats.

Jim

 

[angus99]

I started this thread (I'll take the blame for it) for this reason:

I've recently seen comments--here I believe, but possibly in other forums--about sailboaters being cheap and specifically skipping out on paying for dockage. When I saw the Fleming appear to do that I thought it was a good basis for an ironic commentary about this behavior being unique to sailboats.

I hoped to get two results: First, an acknowledgement that this wasn't a trait of only sailors. Second, I suspected someone would chime in with "..but you don't KNOW they didn't pay." Quite true. And I figured folks would then realize that was also true of the sailboats they had cited previously.

No way I expected this thread to go on so long. I've learned a couple things in the process:

To borrow a current phrase, we're more tribal than I expected. There are more folks happy to talk in us-vs-them terms that I would have expected. I find the older I get the less patience I have for this perspective.

I've also noted that a LOT of people here come from (or have) a significant sailing background. I suggest we keep that in mind when making derogatory comments that group. You're not just being negative to some group somewhere--you're calling out a lot of members here. That typically isn't received well.

Thanks for a great post which I completely agree with. Stereotyping is a convenient, lazy way to address a problem. It's not the type of boat, it's the the individual operator. Too bad a sizable fraction of the online community thinks a keyboard is for constantly venting their spleens and prejudices.

 

[Bigsfish]

Concerning wake: about 60 plus years ago in the Berry Islands we were anchored and a native speeds by in a native skiff with a 40 hp outboard and waked our boat. My dad said something and the native guide responded in his Bahamian accent " It's only water mon". And so it is!

 

[CDreamer]

Bigsfish - in your post #145, I had to laugh at your typo about your friend with "the biggest hose (sic) in Marathon". Not that Marathon is all that populated but still, it IS something to be proud of.

BTW, this is a friendly poke...I fat-finger my own texts all the time...

 

[Lou_tribal]

Wouldn't it be great if everything were free, or at least "fairly" priced? For many, it is hard to resist the temptation to wish for government to step in to correct these injustices, rather than rely on the free enterprise system to correct the vast majority of the unfair circumstances we encounter every day. Maybe things are different in Canada, but experience here in the US is that governmental regulation of pricing never improves economic efficiency. And using government to make the world "fair" will end in disaster.

I, too, apologize for my special point of view.

Did I mentioned anything regarding gov regulation or whatsoever?
No just that in some areas, good anchorage area, some grow mooring buoys like weed in the prejudice of the simple mariner that just seek to go there and anchor in peace.
Not sure I would like to see anchorage bought by Vinci (or any other company owning parking lots) and be forced to scan my credit card before dropping the best anchor in the universe

L.