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Old 11-18-2010, 03:50 AM   #21
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

"But unless we were going to charter it also, we won't be buying this much boat until I retire and can use it enough to make it worthwhile."

Don't be fooled buy todays "asking price", make an offer , even if its $50 ,000 or more below asking.

The method is to sign an offer and give a check for 10% of your offer to the broker.

At once you will have an advocate for a rapid cash sale.

Recently here, a nice 31 ft cruiser asking $14,500 SOLD for $2,300.

Even good boat prices are crashing as housing continues to decline.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:04 AM   #22
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

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FF wrote:

The method is to sign an offer and give a check for 10% of your offer to the broker.

At once you will have an advocate for a rapid cash sale.

Alternative method is give your broker (mine was in Ft. Lauderdale and I was in North Carolina)*a check for $20k*and a list of the boats you have found (in my case with the brokers help), in the*order that you would like to make an offer on.* Then give the broker your "Shame offer" (as Swedish friend calls it) for the first boat with a signed*contract for same.* I had the brokers contract on my computer and just filled in the spaces, signed it, scanned it and email it to my broker.* He then called the selling broker and told them he had a $20k check*and a signed contract in his hand.* We bought the third boat on the list.* The first was a pie in the sky boat that I didn't expect the folks to take our offer*but we did get close.* The second was an owner that had the boat for sell at a high price even when the market was good two years ago and the third was somewhat the same but this owner saw a need to get the boat gone and wasn't stupid about it.

In each case my broker told the selling broker*exactly*what*we were doing and that we would move to the next boat if the seller wasn't interested but we were going to buy a boat in the next couple of days and that*his client*was pre approved well above the asking price so*his client*could close with in a three or four week period.

Bottom line is I got*a four year old 2006 year*model*boat,with 84 total hours on the engine*for a price that was 20% less than the asking*price and less than half the cost of a new 2009 (last model year) that was on the market at the time.

It works with the right broker helping you.* BTW this was done at*my brokers*suggestion as to how we should proceed.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:46 AM   #23
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Chartering Your Boat?

I like your brokers approach JD. No body has to take the offer if they don't like it but it gives a motivated seller an opportunity in this market and of course it gives you the best boat deal available.

So what are the thoughts about where this boat market is going to be in 3 years? I'm thinking that if the real estate market continues to remain flat or even go down more, the value of used boats will continue to fall. I'd be really bummed to find in 3 years that the boat I bought today could have been bought for 20-30% less then. Meanwile I've been paying moorage, insurance, loan interest, zincs, haulout, bottom paint and oil changes and was only able to use the boat about 6-9 weeks during that 3 year period.

Does anybody have a crystal ball handy?

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Thursday 18th of November 2010 08:46:36 AM
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:23 AM   #24
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

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Budds Outlet wrote:

and was only able to use the boat about 6-9 weeks during that 3 year period.

Does anybody have a crystal ball handy?

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Thursday 18th of November 2010 08:46:36 AM
No crystal ball but if that is all you can use it then Charter one when you can*for the time being.

If the market heats up a bit then jump in and take your chances as they say.

One other thing to consider is that if you do your research it will take you two to three years so settle on the proper boat so start now.

BTW this was from my broker as well.* He says that he fully doesn't intend to sale a boat to someone for at least two years from the time they start looking.* Anything less is a bonus.



*
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:37 AM   #25
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

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I like your brokers approach JD. No body has to take the offer if they don't like it but it gives a motivated seller an opportunity in this market and of course it gives you the best boat deal available.

I did something like that back in '89.* The owner of the boat I wanted refused my offer.* There was no counter.* The broker said that he would send the deposit back.* I said that he should just hold it and let the seller know that he had it.* The seller came back later and accepted the deal.* Time and patience can win out.

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Old 11-18-2010, 12:32 PM   #26
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Quote:
JD wrote:

One other thing to consider is that if you do your research it will take you two to three years so settle on the proper boat so start now.

BTW this was from my broker as well.* He says that he fully doesn't intend to sale a boat to someone for at least two years from the time they start looking.* Anything less is a bonus.


My husband and I decided in maybe May that we'd buy a trawler after we got back from sailing to Hawaii in July (versus another sailboat).* We did a LOT of looking online and looked at three boats in person.* We made an offer in August*and closed on Sept 2.* We*are happy as could be!* We use the boat every weekend, whether "using" is spending the weekend on it at our marina, being race committee for our yacht club, toodling around the bay for a couple of hours or taking a weekend trip!

Budds if you can only use the boat 2-3 weeks a year for the next three years I'd have to agree on doing some chartering!* It might be fun to not only try different boats but also charter in different locales??*
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:04 PM   #27
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Quote:
Pineapple Girl wrote:Budds if you can only use the boat 2-3 weeks a year for the next three years I'd have to agree on doing some chartering!* It might be fun to not only try different boats but also charter in different locales??*
My issue with chartering for my own use is that 2-3 weeks chartering equals $7-10K per year which means $21-30K I've spent in three years and don't have for the boat purchase. I do need to spend the time researching and going aboard.*

I just need to show some self control and keep boating in our current boat for three years.* It does have the ability to take us out for a few days, it just won't take us comfortably to the Broughtons and all those other exotic place I read about.
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:17 PM   #28
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Chartering Your Boat?

On the other hand,with chartering you don't have the annual ownership costs of a boat, which never stop until the day you sell or sink the boat. The rough rule of thumb for a boat typical of what most of us on this forum have is ten percent of the purchase price (or value) of the boat per year. This does NOT include boat payments if you've financed the boat. But it inlcludes moorage, insurance, fuel, maintenance, repairs, upgrades, etc. Some years will be less, some more, but we've found over the last twelve years that the ten percent per year figure is pretty accurate.

So you buy the boat for x-tens of thousands of dollars, and then you get to pay for the privilege of owning it*for x-thousands of dollars a year whether you're using it or not.

While this is a very rough estimate, if you buy a $60,000 dollar boat, your annual ownership cost will be in the neighborhood of $6,000. How does that compare to chartering?

If a person only uses a boat three weeks of the year, I think it's pretty hard to make a case for buying a boat of the type we're talking about on this forum. Unless one has the money to burn, in which case anything goes.

If we did not use our boat year round, if not going out on it every few weekends at least going up and staying on it almost every weekend, it would be hard to justify the never-ending expense.



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 18th of November 2010 09:20:04 PM
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:29 PM   #29
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Take your time buying , I just picked up a tricabin CHB 34 for 34k with gen set and bow thruster . 1400 hours on the Ford Lehman 135 . Just a very nice kid
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:24 AM   #30
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

I'd be really bummed to find in 3 years that the boat I bought today could have been bought for 20-30% less then.

You mean like your car?
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Old 11-19-2010, 07:21 AM   #31
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

That's a good point FF. I fully anticipate the value of a boat to depreciate similar to a car or motorhome. My situation is that we wont get a lot of use out of a boat until I retire in 3-4 years so I would basically be buy the boat and "storing" it. Having the boat help pay for its keep was what attracted me to the idea of charter.

We are aboard our current boat about 20 nights a year counting vacation and long weekends. We average between 30-40 hours on the engine per season. The fact that I can trailer it home (7 miles from a great all-tide launch) and don't have moorage costs along with the reduced insurance based on 6 months layup out of the water keeps the annual ownership costs down and more in line with our use time on the boat.

The responses to this thread have been extremely helpful to me in sorting out my thoughts on this issue of charter. I'll wait to buy my big boat until I have time to use it and maintain it in proper fashion myself.
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:13 PM   #32
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Actually, for what it is worth, and in defense of the renters who are not here to defend themselves, I can say we owned a Resort 35 diesel cruiser for about 3 yrs which had been in a rental fleet, so we left her under their management, as it was a great tax write-off - all maintenance, depreciation etc. I have to say I was impressed at just how well the majority of the hirers kept and looked after the vessel, and how few mishaps there were over the period, and this boat had been in hire for at least 10 yrs before we took it on. Bear in mind, most who do hire, just like the advice given to others on here to hire before you buy, are just that. Water lovers who want a boat, maybe can't afford one now, but hope to one day, and take it as a matter of pride, to familiarise themselves with boat craft/rules etc before they take it on, as they don't want to look like buffoons, any more than we owners do. They also imagine it is their boat while out in it - the majority anyway, so do try to use it as if it was their own. Ok...there will be exceptions, but in my experience looking on, the bogans go for houseboats. I've seen them doing all sorts of weirs s**t. Trying to drag the houseboat off a sandbank with the anchor winch is one favourite. The boat hire people don't do that. As a rule.
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:19 AM   #33
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

I don't want to convince you to buy the boat, but since you've heard good reasons for not buying it and not putting it in charter, let me give you the other side of the argument.

If you've been looking for a while, looked at many boats and this one feels like the one, then why wait? I looked for 3 years and the boat that we bought was the first one that we really wanted. There are lots of boats to look at, but few that will be in the configuration and condition that you want.

It will take you some time to make the changes to the boat so that it is how you want it. In my case that was over a year. Wouldn't it be nice to have the boat how you want it when you retire? You can also spread the time and money that it takes to fix it up over the 3 years until retirement.

Buy the boat while you're working. I don't know about you, but my income is higher now than it will be when I'm living on investments, savings, Social Security and pensions. If you pay it off over the next 3 years, it will be paid for, fixed up and ready to go when you are.

I don't see that depreciation will be much of an issue for a 43 Tolly from the 80's. I think most depreciation has already taken place. Now, the value of all boats could go down in the next 3 years. That's why I agree with others that you should make a real low ball offer. If they take it, that will somewhat protect you from further price erosion. It also gives you extra money to make the changes that you want to the boat.

It sounds like you live close to the water in south Puget Sound. There are some great marinas in that area. The boat could act as a waterfront cabin and you might spend a lot of enjoyable time on the boat at the dock even before retirement.

As to putting your boat in charter, there are some disadvantages as stated by others here. But there are tax advantages, the ability to buy parts at commercial instead of retail rates and a potential income flow from charters. My experience so far has been that the people who chartered our boat were all experienced boaters who looked after things. All I hear from people who hear that we've got our boat in charter are horror stories. Boats sunk, trashed, etc. But from what I've seen, the boats in charter are better maintained than 80% of the boats in our marina. They get used more, maintained more and don't sit for the entire year gathering moss. They have to look good, and they have to run when people are coming to charter them. If you have a concern about who's chartering your boat, you could set yourself up to do the checkouts on the charterers yourself. So, I don't think your original idea is quite as grim as some others might.
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Old 11-20-2010, 11:57 AM   #34
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Quote:
Norwester wrote:

Buy the boat while you're working.
This, I think, is good advice unless one is wealthy enough to make it irrelvant when you buy a boat.* We've owned our boat for over twelve years and I've still got several years to go before I can retire (if I ever can).* We've done a lot to our boat from new prop shafts to new engine mounts, exhaust systems, radar---- the list is as endless as everybody else's on this forum.* But with my work income all this was affordable.

Decades ago when I was in high school I was given a piece of advice by a very successful, self-made businessman we knew in Hawaii.* The advice was "never finance your toys."* While there are other points of view about the advantages of financing, I and later my wife have always adhered to this policy on everything but our house.* So we had no finance payments on the boat, which helped a lot with the ownership costs.

But regardless of how you financially acquire the boat, if you determine that for you, owning a boat is preferable to chartering one, Lyle's advice to "just do it" is, in my opinon, very smart advice.

It's very easy to put off a major expense.* There are lots of sensible reasons for doing so.* But what you don't want is to duplicate some of the situations I've read about on the T&T list where a couple dreamed of having a boat for years, maybe a bigger one than they had so they could do some serious cruising, and after retirement they finally got the "perfect" boat, and then health problems robbed them of the chance to use it.

Health problems can arise at any time--- they aren't tied to retirement.* But even though I'm working full time and writing in my spare time and my job takes me overseas periodically and we can only use the boat on weekends (which I can make three-day affairs by flexing my work schedule) and we can only take one or two longer cruises a year, we don't regret having had the boat the last twelve years at all.* It's been a major part of our lives and our lives are richer for it.* We use it year round, wind and schedules permitting, and we go up to it just about every weekend even if we don't go out.

To have put all this off until retirement would have been to miss out some wonderful experiences, to say nothing of meeting new friends like Carey and his wife, who we probably would never have met had we not sublet a slip next to them for the first summer we owned the boat while we crept up the waiting list for a permanent slip.

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Old 11-20-2010, 11:26 PM   #35
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

I really appreciate the advice to do it now and not wait for fate to intervine. I also subscribe to the philosophy of not financing toys. I can finance a boat or I can maintain a boat. I can't afford to do both. For the next three years I want to continue reverse financing (also know as saving) and be able to sail away as free and clear as possible. I will retire in possession of a crusing boat one way or another within four years.

I am on south Puget Sound so I would want the boat here if I bought it before I retire. This is not exactly a hot bed for the charter industry. Its a good place to keep a boat but not much charter opportunity. Buying a boat now and leaving it in charter 3-4 hours away doesn't seem like much fun either. I think charter is probably out of the picture for me at this time.

We do currently have a power boat thats OK for a few day's cruise. We've cruised the waters from Olympia to Ganges. It satisfies many of our boating desires and it is realatively inexpesive to operated. We can continue to cruise on 3 day weekend getaways (at 27 mph) while continuing on target to own a larger crusing boat by the time I retire.
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Old 11-21-2010, 01:07 PM   #36
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Quote:
Budds Outlet wrote:I am on south Puget Sound so I would want the boat here if I bought it before I retire. This is not exactly a hot bed for the charter industry. Its a good place to keep a boat but not much charter opportunity.
I'm not sure I would agree with that.* A trawler of the types most of us on this forum have are 8-knot-ish boats.* If you keep a boat in the south Sound--- Olympia to say Edmonds--- it will take you all day to get in sight of the San Juans.* For weekend cruising, you just get up there and you have to turn around and go back.

On the other hand, if you keep your boat in the north Sound---- La Conner, Anacortes, Bellingham, Blaine--- you are two to four hours away from every destination there is in the islands.

We have an 8-knot boat and a 70 mph car (or perhaps I should say go up to the boat on 70mph freeways).* So our boat in Bellingham is 1.5 to 2 hours away depending on traffic down here and who's driving.* We will sometimes drive up to the boat Friday night when I get home from work, go out first thing in the morning and be at some of our favorite destinations by 10 am.* Even if I have to be back at work on Monday, we can stay out and, in the spring, summer, and fall, not head back to Bellingham until 3:00 pm or so.* I periodically can shift my schedule so I have Monday off, so we get the full day of Sunday at our destination as well.

If one is retired, this is not such a big deal, but unless all one does during retirement is boat, even in retirement the ability to take the boat out to a neat place even for a day or two can be a benefit.

And to be totally honest, my wife and I find the south Sound to be staggeringly boring.* We've flown around over it for decades in the floatplane and we've fished in parts of it for almost as long with our smaller boat.* To us, it is crowded, flat, and about as unscenic as it's possible to get in this part of the world.* Since we have no desire to boat in the south Sound (the engines in our boat actually shut down on their own if we try to go south of La Conner), keeping the boat up north makes all sorts of sense.* Plus it's way cheaper, particularly if you drive back and forth in a 35mpg car, as we do most of the time.

And if you keep your boat in Bellingham or Blaine and have a Nexus pass there are some great weekend-- or long weekend-- destinations right across the border in the southern Gulf Islands.* For anyone not familiar with them, a Nexus pass lets you clear Canadian and US customs by phone--- no need to go to a POE in person.

*
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Old 11-21-2010, 02:10 PM   #37
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

"It will take you some time to make the changes to the boat so that it is how you want it."

Best if you use the boat AS IS for 3 years , and then decide what and why you wish to change anything.

Upgrading old (over 4 weeks) electric toys , is best left till there is a rational need.
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Old 11-21-2010, 02:33 PM   #38
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Chartering Your Boat?

I didn't realize how deprived I've been Marin, stuck here on south sound.** While I agree that Bellingham is proximate to great crusiing waters what is a 1.5 - 2 hour drive for you is a 3.5 - 4 hour drive for us.*

If we bought the bigger boat now, I'd like to have more immediate access.* It would be great*to meet the wife aboard for lunch as my office is only*a block from the water.* We would also enjoy some afternoon-evening cruising in the summer.* We've been cruising these waters for the past 7 seasons and still enjoy the views of Mt. Rainer and the Olympic Mountains.** We have sampled the waters north of here having cruised the San Juans and the Southern Gulf Islands a little each year.* What retirement will allow is the opportunity to cruise far away for extended periods.*

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Sunday 21st of November 2010 03:35:16 PM
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Old 11-21-2010, 04:33 PM   #39
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Quote:
Budds Outlet wrote:

I didn't realize how deprived I've been Marin, stuck here on south sound.
That's okay.* I guess somebody has to live down there.* Otherwise they'd be cluttering up up here

What's far more important is that you have the means to go where you want when you want.* Sounds like you're on track to do that.

*
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:40 PM   #40
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RE: Chartering Your Boat?

Marin has a good point about locating a boat closer to the San Juan and Gulf Islands in Washington and British Columbia. The problem can be finding moorage. I was in Bellingham a couple of weeks ago and stopped at the Port of Bellingham's Squalicum Harbor to inquire about 40' uncovered moorage. The nice lady in their offices quoted a rate of $312.24/month (taxes included but electricity extra) but there is an 8 to 10 year wait list and $50 charge to get on the wait list then $25/year to keep your name on the list. Squalicum is about to start some modifications and remodeling but the marina representative could not say how it might affect the wait lists if at all.

I believe Cap Sante Marina in Anacortes is full too. La Conner (Port of Skagit) has room as does the Oak Harbor Marina in Oak Harbor on Whidbey. If anyone is looking for liveaboard privledges your search is made even more difficult since many marinas limit the number of liveaboards.
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