Caution bad surveyer in San Francisco Bay Area

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OP has probably read the responses and hopefully calmed down. Never a good idea to proceed with anything in anger.

If he posted the survey, and included evidence of survey failures, then OP would be expressing an opinion based upon known facts and would survive a defamation suit.
 
Its difficult to stay calm when you’ve been scammed somehow, anger and guilt. Indignation.

If you go to a doctor you know he has had to meet a standard and has been tested by his peers and subsequently approved. Yes there are poor doctors out there but they are soon weeded out and defrocked. The surveyor/inspector industry has no exams or standards nor peer review. Usually the best ones are passed around by word of mouth because there are competent, meticulous concerned surveyors out there. Many that really care for their clients yet all of these persons, good or bad have a huge influence on the insurance industry, a kind of back-door boating regulatory industry that preys on boaters as we’re all filthy rich because “boats.”

Mmmm turkey....
 
Maybe the reason the OP hasn't returned is that after reading many of the replies, he realizes that he has already been judged guilty without any evidence. Does anyone actually KNOW that the surveyor was or wasn't guilty of fraud?


For heavens sake, all he asked for was recommendations of the proper venue to post about problems he experienced with a surveyor. Yes, he could have framed a little more politically correctly, but from his past history of posting, he doesn't appear to be an alarmist.
 
The OP was effectively seeking permission to post. "Where should I post it?" was a conversation starter.
The header to the post was indicative.
Using the words "crooked" and "fraudulent" was indicative.
Invited to post the survey and the evidence of dishonesty and fraud the OP did not. The result is every surveyor in Seattle could be the "culpable" one. We just don`t know, and we have no opportunity to form our own view based on unvarnished information rather than a conclusion which likely has some emotion to it.
The thread has become a pointless waste of time. For all we know the OP may have been told by TF Owners or Moderators there is no appropriate place on TF for the proposed post.
The thread would benefit from closure.
 
"The result is every surveyor in Seattle could be the "culpable" one."



Not sure how surveyors in Seattle could possibly be the "culpable" one when the OP states that he is from the San Francisco area . . .
 
Good point Slowgoesit.
Now you are past that, deal with the substance of the post.
 
Its difficult to stay calm when you’ve been scammed somehow, anger and guilt. Indignation.

If you go to a doctor you know he has had to meet a standard and has been tested by his peers and subsequently approved. Yes there are poor doctors out there but they are soon weeded out and defrocked. The surveyor/inspector industry has no exams or standards nor peer review. Usually the best ones are passed around by word of mouth because there are competent, meticulous concerned surveyors out there. Many that really care for their clients yet all of these persons, good or bad have a huge influence on the insurance industry, a kind of back-door boating regulatory industry that preys on boaters as we’re all filthy rich because “boats.”

Mmmm turkey....

Wrong wrong wrong. Bad doctors are NOT weeded out and defrocked. The medical establishment always closes ranks and defends their peers. Read the stories of those killer doctors: they always have years and years of documented errors and abuse of patients. They are invariably given second third and fourth chances disguised are “training” or “education” allowing them to continue harming the public.
 
Maybe the reason the OP hasn't returned is that after reading many of the replies, he realizes that he has already been judged guilty without any evidence. Does anyone actually KNOW that the surveyor was or wasn't guilty of fraud?


For heavens sake, all he asked for was recommendations of the proper venue to post about problems he experienced with a surveyor. Yes,
he could have framed a little more politically correctly, but from his past history of posting, he doesn't appear to be an alarmist.

We know for a fact that there have been no charges laid, civil or criminal, and thus no trial before a judge or jury. Therefore any claim of guilt or even innocence is simply opinion.
 
Wrong wrong wrong. Bad doctors are NOT weeded out and defrocked. The medical establishment always closes ranks and defends their peers. Read the stories of those killer doctors: they always have years and years of documented errors and abuse of patients. They are invariably given second third and fourth chances disguised are “training” or “education” allowing them to continue harming the public.




That's a true statement Woodland. The 5% rule is always a factor in every profession. Just look at the accident report from the Atlas Air 767 crash in Houston.
 
The OP made two mistakes. First, used a word (fraud) that sets a very high bar - an impossible bar. Second, he went AWOL, which is a bit underhanded and piques the natural skepticism in us all - smacks of scorned-lover syndrome.

I recently called-out an OEM on this list and got a similar reaction.....at first. In my opinion, if you're pissed off at the service you've received, you owe it to the Service Provider to bend over backwards to try to resolve the issue (I'm up to three emails to the owner - crickets). Be prepared to be factual with portraying your issue. And finally, don't catastrophize the event or over-reach ('fraud,' for example).

Look, there are going to be pundits on a list like this that will take the opposite side no matter what - and I sure 'met' them on my rant. But there were several people who looked and what I had to say and, once they understood the OEM had left me in the wind, were mildly supportive. So my advice to anyone with a bone to pick is to take a subtle approach "I hired Such-and-Such Surveyor and I'm sorry I did." It's factual - it's how you feel and doesn't direct anyone else to feel the same way (though implication is obvious). Then be prepared to lay out your case - including any efforts you've made to resolve directly. Public shaming should be your last stop, not the first.

That said, really cheesy the OP went AWOL.
 
Here's my problem. He has not define the surveyor's failures.
My surveyor failed for find a small hydraulic leak on the steering gear.
I pointed it out, next day corrected and all cleaned up. Was I upset? Not one bit. That minor error would not have negated my purchase.
I am sure others have experienced more important 'sins of omission'.
 
Its difficult to stay calm when you’ve been scammed somehow, anger and guilt. Indignation.

If you go to a doctor you know he has had to meet a standard and has been tested by his peers and subsequently approved. Yes there are poor doctors out there but they are soon weeded out and defrocked. The surveyor/inspector industry has no exams or standards nor peer review. Usually the best ones are passed around by word of mouth because there are competent, meticulous concerned surveyors out there. Many that really care for their clients yet all of these persons, good or bad have a huge influence on the insurance industry, a kind of back-door boating regulatory industry that preys on boaters as we’re all filthy rich because “boats.”

Mmmm turkey....



Not quite true but you have some of the elements correct. There is very little statutory oversight of the Marine Surveyor trade in North America other than that which applies to conducting a trade in general. It’s always been a beef of mine that anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a Marine Surveyor. How long they last in business is the only barrier to doing so. Many work from their homes and have no employees thus keeping the overhead to zero. Many also do not carry either Liability or Errors and Omissions insurance. Of this subset of marine surveyors, some are very competent, some are moderately competent and some are blithering idiots. Even worse, some are out and out crooks. Our OP may have run into somebody in the latter category and, if so, I don’t blame him for wanting to shout it from the rooftops.

Now having said that, a majority of surveyors are in it for the long haul not the quick buck. Those who are serious about it are members of either NAMS Global or SAMS. There are more yacht surveyors in SAMS because of the history of the organizations.

NAMS (National Association of Marine Surveyors) is the older of the two organizations and has recently added Global to its name as they are expanding internationally. It has long had standards that must be adhered to prior to becoming a CMS (Certified Marine Surveyor). These standards included having served an apprenticeship with an existing CMS and passing a written examination on their chosen speciality, minimum five years as a surveyor and submitting a number a surveys authored by them to an examination board for review. They also take a written test on Ethics. Upon completion they are nominated for election into the organization and must be voted by the existing membership. The process typically takes about a year to complete. After they are in, there is a Continuing Education requirement so they must attend seminars and further education courses.

This certification process appealed to Marine Underwriters and eventually they required that independent surveyors employed by them were NAMS-CMS certified in order to get on the approved vendor list.

NAMS certifies surveyors in (I believe) eight sub categories, the one of interest here being ‘Yachts and Small Craft”. Others include Hull and Machinery, Cargo, Heavy Lift, Marine Salvage, Containers, Docks and Marina facilities and Commercial Fishing Vessels. Hull and Machinery in this category refers to commercial ships, tugs, barges and associated craft as well as their mechanical and sub-systems.

So obviously, if you choose a surveyor with a NAMS-CMS certification be sure to check his or her speciality as you don’t want to hire a Coal Cargo surveyor to examine your 45’ cruiser. About 65% of NAMS surveyors work exclusively in the commercial vessel side of marine surveying. There are less than 500 certified members in the organization and I am guessing less than 200 exclusive Yachts and Small Craft guys. It’s a pretty small pool to pick from. All carry liability insurance and soon the majority will carry E&O. I will say the E&O may be prohibitively expensive for the sole practitioner with some quotes up in the $10,000 a year price range. Last I heard NAMS was working directly with underwriters to reduce that cost.

The Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors (SAMS) was formed in the 1970s by independent marine surveyors who at the time could not meet the apprenticeship requirements of NAMS or could not pass the written test. ( To be fair, the original test was a hybrid knowledge of every category test rather than the speciality test it is now). Most of the original members were yachts and small craft surveyors and they remain the majority to this day. This is where you are likely to find the largest choice of surveyors in any region to be SAMS certified.

As time went by, SAMS members realized that they could not get insurance work due to the NAMS-only exclusion. They worked to adopt most of the NAMS criteria which they adapted to fit more closely with the members budgets and working styles. Thus you may find reports more heavily weighted to check off lists with photos and with only brief explanations. They are now fully accepted by most insurance companies. I am not sure if liability insurance is a requirement of membership as I have not checked on that. I am pretty certain that very few if any carry E&O insurance.

Some of the older members were grandfathered in but nowadays most of the membership has been screened and found satisfactory.

So, do your homework, pick a certified guy then ask around for his reputation. Also ask your insurance company. They know most of the bad apples. Remember, no one can be an expert in everything and they don’t have x-ray vision. An expert in wooden sailboats may not know much about Carvers or Sea Rays so pick carefully. All should know the basics of wood and fiberglass construction and be cognizant of ABYC installation recommendations.

Hope this helps some of you with your decisions.
 
I think we should rename this thread a Reasoned Discussion about Surveyors. Thanks to those contributing.
 
There are plenty of bad surveyors who are part of SAMS too. One problem is that surveyors are not regulated. Most professions are. Property appraisers are in most states.

Now, regulation doesn't guarantee quality work. There are bad doctors, there are bad lawyers. If you're just bad at your job, regulation doesn't do a lot. However, if you're dishonest, committing fraud it may and it may be an easier redress than the court system.

If one has been defrauded by a surveyor, broker, or builder, then tread gently in public and take legal action in private. If you've simply had someone fail to do a decent job then come here and discuss where they failed in a calm, factual manner.

Yes, if you feel mistreated, it's hard to be calm. So wait until you can.

Also, think carefully about your purpose. Is it really to advise others on what to avoid, how to not make the mistake you made, or is it a vendetta. What was done to you reflects on the one who did it. How you handle it reflects on you. I've seen some here who were definitely wronged or had problems, but handled them in such a constructive way that they got good results while informing others.

To the OP's original question, this isn't Yelp or Angie's List but even those would likely limit reviews that started with "crooked" and "fraud". Perhaps a site to discuss vendors throughout the industry would be nice. Anyone ready to start one and assume the task of moderating it and the legal challenges it involves? Not me.
 
The OP was effectively seeking permission to post. "Where should I post it?" was a conversation starter.
The header to the post was indicative.
Using the words "crooked" and "fraudulent" was indicative.
Invited to post the survey and the evidence of dishonesty and fraud the OP did not. The result is every surveyor in Seattle could be the "culpable" one. We just don`t know, and we have no opportunity to form our own view based on unvarnished information rather than a conclusion which likely has some emotion to it.
The thread has become a pointless waste of time. For all we know the OP may have been told by TF Owners or Moderators there is no appropriate place on TF for the proposed post.
The thread would benefit from closure.



This. Agree.
 
Agreed.
I think I will just back out of here.
 

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