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Old 10-12-2013, 03:49 PM   #21
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while at the same time keeping the yacht deal together

No disrespect trawler mick. But the last thing a surveyor should be doing is trying to keep a deal together. I'm paying for unbiased and honest opinion. If it's a piece if shit and I should run the other way then that's what I'm paying for. Despite how bad I want the deal. I think this is where we head down a slippery slope when trying to trust surveys and the people who write them. Just my opinion.
No disrespect taken; I agree 100% ...In fact that was my point, and I probably could have done a better job connecting those dots...
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Old 10-12-2013, 03:51 PM   #22
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Cool and congrats on the trip.
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:40 PM   #23
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GFC

I totally agree with you.

Micky
You are really lucky man.

Let me tell you something my friend; regardless the coast and the country and the continent, no 2 miles offshore are calmer than 12 miles offshore. When you go offshore, 2 to 5 miles isn’t safe.

When/if the coast line is mountainous, stay 2-5 miles away from the coast and you'll see how bitten you'll be.

That is my experience in many other places around the world, maybe the West American Coast is different.

Anyway, you did it and you got where you wanted in safety. That’s the important fact.

Be happy
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:06 PM   #24
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[QUOTE=GFC;184274]Sorry Micki, buy my conscience suggests/demands that I speak out about a couple of things in your posts...

Well I'm glad that someone here thinks I'm a lunatic, I was starting to feel a bit like the whole thing was no big deal.



Nobody's ever accused me of being a cheapskate but I don't remember an inordinate number of accolades for common sense either - I hope we can agree they're both pretty subjective topics.



-"literally insane for a person to do a '1-hour survey' of a boat that he's never seen before then write a check to buy it..."

Yes, it was a bit ballsy I guess. Sort of a calculated gamble. Comes from many yrs of boating and a career of buying/ selling big ticket items. I assume that gives me somewhat of an edge. I could be wrong. At any rate it's my money - and let's be clear on this - I'm not suggesting it's a good method for everyone. I just figured it made a good story.

-"Then, you declined the offer of a professional captain to do the trip for $4,000 because it might have ended up costing you more due to delays. Really? Ignoring the value of the boat for a moment, at that point you are basically saying my life might be worth $4,000 but not any more than that..."

Are you suggesting having a licensed master aboard (you're assuming I'm not one) would have saved my life, had an event spun out of control? That's highly illogical for too many reasons to list - not the least of which is what it takes to become a "professional captain" (sadly, that's not much these days). I deliberately avoided dollar figures the whole way through but slipped on that topic. Oops.

-That you were able to complete the trip by yourself instead of ending up as the next Darwin Award recipient we would read about on here does not mean that it was a wise thing to do. It wasn't, and there's no way to paint this lunatic adventure as being safe. There are too many things that can go wrong on a boat, especially a boat on the ocean, to make doing a trip like this on your own as anything but nuts.

With complete respect; that paragraph is highly subjective (and condescending, and angry... and even a bit ignorant, sorry "senior TF member"). Really, which is more dangerous: Going alone or being responsible for someone I don't know or trust in a serous situation. Of course I preferred company and the layer of risk it shaves off the whole endeavor. It just wasn't available in my time frame or budget.

-And you did this trip without a GPS plotter. Granted, in the early history of our country people navigated up and down the coasts without plotters, but look at how many of them were lost at sea. On a risk/reward scale, with the only reward being the savings of money, this just doesn't pencil out.

Okay now I'm laughing! You're one of those plotter guys!! (I did mention I had GPS remember). Well, if you don't like Los Angeles to Seattle w/o a plotter you'd hate some of my other "adventures". Hey, I LOVE technology... but really?

-"That you took the advice of the skipper of a HUGE tug when he suggested you stay close to shore is also questionable. He can do that because the waves and wind don't affect his tug the way they would your boat".

If you call 100 ft "huge" for that trip I don't know what to say... Um; it's not? And do you think hauling a fuel barge makes waves weather and current safer? (Please don't say yes). Forget about HIS 30 years, let's call him a crazy lunatic too then - but what about all those Coast Guard folks all the way up that agreed implicitly? Including 2 off-shore instructors? I'm happy to admit I was from the stay-away-from-land crowd myself before this trip. Hell, I've surfed my whole life, it only makes sense that waves build close to shore... But avoiding rough water by staying far out is simply not the way it works.

-"People periodically go over Niagara Falls but that doesn't necessarily mean it's safe".

Truth be known my only 1 point to that story (other than a nice way to join TF) was that safety, risk and (yes even) "luck" just aren't black and white.

-"BTW, if you ever decide to make this trip, or a similar trip again in the future, please don't call me. I'll be too busy that day".

That's sorta funny, a little mean... Senior Member? Really?
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #25
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GFC,
Ouch!.. While I do agree with a lot of what you have said.. It was a tad bit harsh though. I have made a few trips that were similar on various boats in the past... It really depends on how you look at the trip and the boat. The first week of his trip could of been a series of day hops it very sheltered conditions that are common in So Cal ( We based in Santa Barbara for 8 years and while it can be stinky it can also be very nice). So the small or large issues will start to make themselves known and can be dealt with.
A week into moving North one can have a pretty good handle on the systems and condition and handling of a boat. Of course from the Gate North it is always a crap shoot.
When I did a lot of deliveries it was like playing roulette as to the condition and abilities of many boats. The crew's depth of knowledge has a lot to do with the success of a unknown boat.
As to if a plotter is necessary for that route... not at all. radar and a good sounder are a must . Would I do it without one.. most likely not

Regarding a surveyor knowingly giving the nod on a questionable boat.. that is one of the issues I have with SOME in that industry.. that should never happen. period.
If the Broker takes an issue up with a surveyor that tells the truth about a major issue the Broker is just as guilty as the surveyor that doesn't report the issue correctly... Brokers!.. that is a whole additional rant I have..
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Old 10-12-2013, 05:33 PM   #26
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GFC,
Ouch!.. While I do agree with a lot of what you have said.. It was a tad bit harsh though. I have made a few trips that were similar on various boats in the past... It really depends on how you look at the trip and the boat. The first week of his trip could of been a series of day hops it very sheltered conditions that are common in So Cal ( We based in Santa Barbara for 8 years and while it can be stinky it can also be very nice). So the small or large issues will start to make themselves known and can be dealt with.
A week into moving North one can have a pretty good handle on the systems and condition and handling of a boat. Of course from the Gate North it is always a crap shoot.
When I did a lot of deliveries it was like playing roulette as to the condition and abilities of many boats. The crew's depth of knowledge has a lot to do with the success of a unknown boat.
As to if a plotter is necessary for that route... not at all. radar and a good sounder are a must . Would I do it without one.. most likely not

Regarding a surveyor knowingly giving the nod on a questionable boat.. that is one of the issues I have with SOME in that industry.. that should never happen. period.
If the Broker takes an issue up with a surveyor that tells the truth about a major issue the Broker is just as guilty as the surveyor that doesn't report the issue correctly... Brokers!.. that is a whole additional rant I have..
HOLLYWOOD
I didn't do a very good job communicating my dislike (for many - NOT all) surveyors. By humbly placing myself first hand in the Bad Group with an example (and of why I stopped surveying) I thought that was obvious. I have high regard for a truly autonomous professional. Imo they are few and far between. -Dave out!
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Old 10-12-2013, 08:05 PM   #27
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Every now and then I get a glimmer (but only a glimmer, mind you! -- it is still maddening!) of why Marin only does PM's.

Trawler Micki -- please continue your story. Personally, I do not care if you dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's or not. Your boat, your life. It is a well written story, and I like that.

John
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:02 PM   #28
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Trawler Micki -- please continue your story. Personally, I do not care if you dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's or not. Your boat, your life. It is a well written story, and I like that.

John
I am with that.


Maybe twenty years ago, a magazine ran a cover photo of Dodge Morgan (sailed around the world alone without stopping) single handing his sailboat, standing on a rail, bracing himself with the standing rigging as he did something or other. Great photo. There were a number of letters complaining that the magazine was promoting unsafe behavior. I don't remember the magazine's response, but Morgan's was great: "I don't go to sea to be safe."

We all have differing attitudes and appetites for risk. I don't think those of us who read this forum who have less experience are going to see Trawler MIcki's post as suggesting a prudent approach for a newcomer. Just an adventure from someone with the experience and the approach to risk that allows choices that most of us won't be making.

So far as the surveyor episode is concerned, that may be the most concisely expressed lesson about why skills are only a part of the concern about a surveyor's report. There are considerable employment pressures to bring home a survey that doesn't blow a sale.

More!
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Old 10-12-2013, 09:50 PM   #29
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BTW, if you ever decide to make this trip, or a similar trip again in the future, please don't call me. I'll be too busy that day.
Micki- If your ever down this way, and are looking for a second hand, I'd be more than happy to make the time.
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:43 PM   #30
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Great story. Please continue.

As far as the risk thing goes; Dr. Paul Slovik is right once again...
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Old 10-12-2013, 11:22 PM   #31
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Dear CFG,

I understand your take on things. But:

Crazy as a survey may be and nutty as a boating adventure may be I feel it is up to the person as long as they do not infringe on others or expose them to harm... in other words - a single handed, solo journey!

I'm in total agreement:

As far as a surveyor talking out of both sides of their mouth... to dealer, buyer, or seller - That IS PURE CRAP - It is dishonest BS!!
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:52 AM   #32
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Mick, OK, perhaps I was a bit harsh with the language in my critique of your post, but I'll stand by my comments about a person (any person) taking on a trip such as this, on a boat he is not at all familiar with without taking what most people would consider adequate preparations. Things can happen at sea...people can fall and break bones or hit their head, or fall overboard or any one of a bazillion other things. If you're out there alone, who ya gonna call? Or if you can't get to the VHF, HOW are you going to call for help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The first week of his trip could of been a series of day hops it very sheltered conditions that are common in So Cal ( We based in Santa Barbara for 8 years and while it can be stinky it can also be very nice). So the small or large issues will start to make themselves known and can be dealt with.
Hollywood, had Mick done this I would have viewed the trip a little differently. He didn't though. He was out there at night, solo, on a boat he didn't know. Nuff said about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Crazy as a survey may be and nutty as a boating adventure may be I feel it is up to the person as long as they do not infringe on others or expose them to harm... in other words - a single handed, solo journey!
Art, I would agree with you up to the point where he runs into trouble and starts calling out a MAYDAY call on the VHF. At that point he's getting the USCG choppers in the air, their boats in the water and likely other boats coming to his rescue. I always shake my head when I read a story about some dimwit attempting to cross oceans in a skiff (as an example) because the odds are high that someone, somewhere is going to have to put his life in jeopardy to rescue him.

It's all well and good to believe we're ten feet tall and bulletproof and can take on anything the world dishes up to us and make it through. Fortunately, most of the time we survive. Unfortunately, too much of the time we don't and others have to pick up the pieces.

As to your multiple references to me as a "senior boater", that title probably fits me well. I got my first boat over 60 years ago...it was 9' long and came with a pair of oars. In terms of miles traveled on the water I'm sure I'm FAR below what many of you are, but I'm working hard to catch up.

Mick, lest you think I'm a total jerk, I too am looking forward to your writeup about the trip. I'm sure I will learn something from it, and to reiterate what I mentioned in my first post, I'm glad you made it home safe and sound. Good on ya for that!
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Old 10-13-2013, 01:41 AM   #33
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Funny story - sort of checks out with some of the comments re surveys made above in a way. When I purchased Lotus, nearly 12 yrs ago now, I had a survey done, mainly because the insurance co I wanted cover with insisted. However, I had done my own reading up on the important items to look for, and had done one myself when she was out on the hard being anti fouled. So, I was pretty sure she was tired, needed a lot of cosmetic stuff done, and had a few issues which might well have put others off, but which I felt I could live with, some ultimately change, many I could improve myself, but that she was basically sound in the areas that mattered, and good to go, as it were.

Well when the surveyor did his number, he was pretty ruthless, and I could see the PO's face going paler and paler as he saw his sale going down the gurgler, or so he thought. I was impressed when surveyor scratched the bronze seacocks, and muttered, "yes, although frozen, and needing working, they were genuine bronze and showing no de-zincification" ( I think was the term he used). I remember thinking 'aha, clearly he knows his stuff', as I remembered reading about how important that was in an article I had read on the subject. You can imagine the laughs when I later mentioned this, and he then informed me he was aware of the article, as he wrote it..!
Laughs aside though, if anything, his survey was rather more negative than it could have been, and could have put me off, but I knew enough that I could cope with the negatives, and remedy most of them myself, thereby saving a lot, and thereby making her affordable for me with no need to borrow, whereas if she had been a younger, smarter, neater vessel, she would have been out of my price range.

The point is, I could have literally just gone by my own examination and gut feeling, knowing she was not perfect, and she would still have been a good, (better by the cost of the haul-out and survey actually, if I could have avoided the survey), because she has proved this over the succeeding 12 yrs down the track.

Would I have set off on my own to deliver her 100nm away? - I think not - not then, but with more experience I would, (and she would have made it, as in 12 years her engine and running gear have never missed a beat), as long as I could harbour hop, as I understand Trawler Micki did GFC..?
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:11 AM   #34
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Mick, OK, perhaps I was a bit harsh with the language in my critique of your post, but I'll stand by my comments about a person (any person) taking on a trip such as this, on a boat he is not at all familiar with without taking what most people would consider adequate preparations. Things can happen at sea...people can fall and break bones or hit their head, or fall overboard or any one of a bazillion other things. If you're out there alone, who ya gonna call? Or if you can't get to the VHF, HOW are you going to call for help?


Hollywood, had Mick done this I would have viewed the trip a little differently. He didn't though. He was out there at night, solo, on a boat he didn't know. Nuff said about that.


Art, I would agree with you up to the point where he runs into trouble and starts calling out a MAYDAY call on the VHF. At that point he's getting the USCG choppers in the air, their boats in the water and likely other boats coming to his rescue. I always shake my head when I read a story about some dimwit attempting to cross oceans in a skiff (as an example) because the odds are high that someone, somewhere is going to have to put his life in jeopardy to rescue him.

It's all well and good to believe we're ten feet tall and bulletproof and can take on anything the world dishes up to us and make it through. Fortunately, most of the time we survive. Unfortunately, too much of the time we don't and others have to pick up the pieces.

As to your multiple references to me as a "senior boater", that title probably fits me well. I got my first boat over 60 years ago...it was 9' long and came with a pair of oars. In terms of miles traveled on the water I'm sure I'm FAR below what many of you are, but I'm working hard to catch up.

Mick, lest you think I'm a total jerk, I too am looking forward to your writeup about the trip. I'm sure I will learn something from it, and to reiterate what I mentioned in my first post, I'm glad you made it home safe and sound. Good on ya for that!
GFC, you have no clue what I did to prep the boat for her trip. How could you? I've written about purchase/ inspection only.

How could you know my skill level, or even any formal training I might have under my belt? Would that matter? Does a 9' rowboat 60 years ago matter?

So far you know nothing about the actual trip details - except I planned to go alone and keep relatively close to shore. (Your retention needs some work, I did mentioned my intent to run in the daylight only).

You say I wasn't at all familiar with the boat... Yet I've already mentioned studying every record since she was sold new AND spending an entire week prepping her for the trip. We're talking a 42' Grand Banks here, a very, VERY simple vessel... How much time were you thinking it really takes to "know" a little boat like that? Yes yes, I agree; probably more than an hour (but certainly less than a week).

GFC, we DO have something in common; seems that I'm a senior boater too. And here's something I've noticed since I got my first little sailboat about the same amount of years ago: Many people love being on the water but they're scared of it. Some even a bit too scared, I think. That's sad because fear can often be very limiting.

As I get older I think of the lyrics to an old Pink Floyd tune; "All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be" - my thought is that fearing (or more accurately misunderstanding) risk does little to make you safe but PLENTY to keep you from living your life. To each his own I guess.

-No more banter, next post is about what matters - the trip!
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:18 AM   #35
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Good thread, great story! Keep it coming Micki. Minus the distance from home and subsequent delivery my purchase story really isn't much different at all. Of course I needed an insurance survey after the fact anyway but that held no great revelations either.

Common sense and the balls to pull the trigger when the time is right are often your greatest assets in life.
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:34 PM   #36
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1. - Minus the distance from home my purchase story really isn't much different at all.

2. - Common sense and the balls to pull the trigger when the time is right are often your greatest assets in life.
1. - Ditto!

2. - Ditto and Bingo!!
Happy Boating Daze!!!
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:33 PM   #37
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Micki, you made some valid points. Thanks.

Now I'm looking forward to reading about the trip.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:08 PM   #38
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Next Post - Getting Micki Ready
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