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Old 06-15-2011, 11:58 PM   #1
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Buyer's Broker

Inquiry -**How many of you used a broker as*a buyer, to help you find or purchase your boat?*

If the broker located a boat that you eventually bought, did you pay him/her a fee or a commission?* ** KJ*
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:07 AM   #2
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RE: Buyer's Broker

Kj,

You as a buyer do not pay the broker; he makes his money from the seller who pays the commission.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:56 AM   #3
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There is no such thing. Unless you pay them a fee-for-service it is a "dual agency" agreement. A true buyers agent could preclude the buyer's interest over the seller's. That is not to say that having *edit* your own *edit* broker (agent) that you trust to show you boats and help you through the process is not an extremely valuable tool when shopping. However, not all listing agents will split commissions and you need to find that out BEFORE you go shopping with your own broker for other broker's listings. Still, in the end, unless you have an agreement for a agent to represent YOU for a fee, both of the brokers have one interest and that is to sell the seller's boat at the highest possible price.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 16th of June 2011 07:46:56 AM
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:09 AM   #4
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RE: Buyer's Broker

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GonzoF1 wrote:Still, in the end, unless you have an agreement for a agent to represent YOU for a fee, both of the brokers have one interest and that is to sell the seller's boat at the highest possible price.
*Sorry Tom I don't agree.* If your broker is a good honest*broker he is out to help you.

When Tucker was representing me it was he that suggested to the selling broker that they kick in half of their commissions to salvage the deal.* Not me.* I didn't buy that boat in the end but it seems to me he was representing me. I know some is better than none but there are brokers that would not do that on a split.

KJ, in answer to your question.* The right broker can be of great help in getting you the boat that you want.* Also as was my case he*had great*advise on handling the buyer of my boat when they were trying to come with some price reductions after the boat pasted a good survey.* Your buyers broker can be very helpful with finding out*information you can not get from the selling broker on your own.**But as Tom said some brokers don't want to split deals.* United in the New Bern market is one of them.* But I did a lot of my own leg work on finding what I wanted and when I talked to brokers I would always say right off that "I had a buyers broker, will that be a problem".* The answer you get tells you something about some of the brokers you are dealing with.* For instance I had one broker that said that it was OK but then later, while showing me the boat,*tried to cut Tucker out of the deal.* Not very ethical nor someone I wanted to continue to deal with.**On the other hand*I had*a broker that said that he didn't like to split deals but when he found out who my broker was his words were, "I'll do a deal with them because they can help me in the future more than I can help them".* He was referring to much larger boats and the size of Bradford Yachts*I'm sure.

A good buyers broker is of great value in supplying you with*information you need to make smart offers based on facts not emotions*and*I would do it the same all over again.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:14 AM   #5
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RE: Buyer's Broker

Tom,
As a broker I have to really disagree with your assessment. Not all brokers are out there just to put as much cash in their own pockets, regardless of whether a boat is a good fit for a buyer or not. Just as in real estate, there are great brokers, ok brokers, and crooks. A buyer's broker should be the one to help weed through all the junk on the market and find you the best boat at the LOWEST price. A dedicated buyer's broker is not a dual agency situation unless by that you mean to mistakenly think that the listing broker also represents the buyer which they typically do not. Sadly, yes, there are brokers out there that only care about the money but it is pretty darn easy to spot them. A real broker though focuses on the client relationship b/c a relationship transcends one small transaction and can result in repeat business and referrals so a smart broker always puts his clients needs first b/c we ALL know you reap what you sow and what goes around comes around...treat people right and do what is best for them despite what the financial impacts may be for yourself as the broker and business will come to you over and over and you will have clients that become lifelong friends.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:31 AM   #6
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I didn't mean any of that disparagingly. Just because they want to sell it and make the most they can doesn't always mean they are greedy crooks. But yes, there are some that are. I am simply saying that if the seller is paying the tab for both, then they will both have the seller interests into the deal as well. So that does not classify them as a "buyer's broker" UNLESS the buyer pays the fee of their own representative. I hope that clears that up... I am not trying to insult you brokers out there.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 16th of June 2011 07:51:49 AM
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:50 AM   #7
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I think this is a very interesting topic and some very good points made all around. Tom is right in saying there are some bad brokers out there and obviously Tony is correct in saying you have to find the right one. He also realizes the value of a long lasting relationship. With people like all of us, we will be boating the rest of our lives and we likely will not be totally happy with every boat we buy... So there is always the potential for another boat in the near future. If you are a good broker, you realize this and cultivate that relationship.

JD, the reason you had the problems you did is because you were not going through the "proper channels" of looking for boats. If you have a broker representing you, then that broker should act as your point of contact...ALWAYS...and THAT broker should be the one showing you the boat. You cannot be calling on boats and saying you have a buyer's broker and then asking the selling broker to show you the boat??????? It is just like real estate. YOUR representative does all the legwork...showing...calling...etc!!! You cannot expect a listing broker to do all the legwork and then for him to share the commission with your guy that has been sitting on his ass????

My above paragraph gets us back to the original question from the OP. Does a buyer's broker help??? I have friends in the business. I honestly feel quite capable of representing myself but I also feel I may as well cut some friends in on the action and it will be no sweat off of my back. That is the intent. In reality, if you do not find a broker necessary, they can get in the way. Like I said above, he is your point of contact. If you have a question on a boat....you call him....he calls the listing broker...the listing broker calls the owner....the owner calls back...the listing broker calls back....and then the broker calls you back....all that for ONE QUESTION!!!! And that my take a couple of days of waiting on people to return calls. And you will have more questions as the deal progresses....or offers and counters....etc. So just the haggling part of the deal can take WEEKS!!!!!!

With all that said, I do think a good buyer's broker can get you the best deal...which is what you are looking for...right???? They have access to resources that you don't(Sold boats,etc.). They also can gauge the intent of the other broker and get a good idea of what the boat can be bought for before you haggle back and forth. Also, I am well versed in how a boat deal goes down...many people are not. And a buyer's broker will represent you and walk you through all of the hoops that must be jumped through.

One more thing that is a little irritating about brokers(and salespeople in general) is that an informed buyer(me) usually knows more about the boat than they do. I live in the land of the sailboats and I am willing to bet I know more about trawlers than any broker around here(I could exclude Jay Bettis here....they are pretty good and a GB and DeFever dealer). Anyway.............

Anyway, that is all of my miscellaneous ramblings on the subject. I am relatively young(I keep telling myself that) and have bought many boats through brokers. I wish I could say I agree more with Tony than I do with Tom....sad to say I think Tom's generalizations are more true...simply my opinion. I was looking at a boat for a friend that I have sailed aboard and knew the owner. Her broker was showing me the boat(at the time I thought it was the listing broker). I knew the engine had issues(by my knowing the owner....but not well) and was just asking the nature of them and if they had been fixed. She had no clue what I was talking about but asked nicely that I not bring them up to the buyer. After that I found out that this was the buyer's broker trying to withhold information from the buyer so it won't poopoo the deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WAS PISSED!!!! Anyway, in the end the buyer's broker wants the deal to go through and money is the motivator.....


-- Edited by Baker on Thursday 16th of June 2011 11:19:20 AM
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:10 AM   #8
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I have used a broker to help me find a boat twice. the broker splits the commission with the listing broker. I was quite pleased both times (same broker).

-- Edited by Avista on Thursday 16th of June 2011 11:11:07 AM
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Baker wrote:
JD, the reason you had the problems you did is because you were not going through the "proper channels" of looking for boats. If you have a broker representing you, then that broker should act as your point of contact...ALWAYS...and THAT broker should be the one showing you the boat. You cannot be calling on boats and saying you have a buyer's broker and then asking the selling broker to show you the boat??????? It is just like real estate. YOUR representative does all the legwork...showing...calling...etc!!! You cannot expect a listing broker to do all the legwork and then for him to share the commission with your guy that has been sitting on his ass????
*Sorry John I had not made it clear.* In all but a few instances the broker that was representing me did call the selling brokerage or broker to introduce me.***But*as in housing it is not always feasible for the buyers broker to show the product.* My broker was in FL I looked at boats all up and down the East Coast.* The slime ball that tried to switch me had talked directly to my broker several time before I went to see the boat.*

At no time did I have any real problems, if I had I would not have said that I would do it again.


-- Edited by JD on Thursday 16th of June 2011 11:31:21 AM
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Old 06-16-2011, 11:43 AM   #10
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RE: Buyer's Broker

My issue has less to do with pessimism of bad brokers and more of technicality, definition, and legal statute. Can an agents (in this example TWO of them) that are being paid solely by the seller ever be defined as a "buyer's broker", and thus, can they TRULY have ONLY the buyers interests and liability in mind?
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:16 PM   #11
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RE: Buyer's Broker

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GonzoF1 wrote:My issue has less to do with pessimism of bad brokers and more of technicality, definition, and legal statute. Can an agents (in this example TWO of them) that are being paid solely by the seller ever be defined as a "buyer's broker", and thus, can they TRULY have ONLY the buyers interests and liability in mind?
*No more than*when the same lawyer is used for both sides of a*divorce.* The first hiring*party gets the benefits and the second party is only protected to the extent that nothing that is done is against any laws in effect.*Division of property has to be legal not fair as long as both agree to it.*But their only*loyalty is to the first party.

The buyers broker is in effect being brought into the deal by the buyer and their loyalty should be to the buyer.* My broker flew up from FL*to NC for the survey and sea trial.* He followed the surveyor through out the survey asking questions.* Drove the boat during some of the sea trial.* Was he a broker or and advisor?* Makes no difference to me what he was called he had my better interests in mind.
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Old 06-16-2011, 02:06 PM   #12
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RE: Buyer's Broker

Just as in real estate, source of payment of the commission does not mandate allegiance. The #1 source for generating tons of business for me is....other brokers! The yacht brokerage industry is about 50 years behind the standards of real estate as far as ethics and best practices so I am not surprised to hear the frustration here whatsoever- in fact, that is what got me into doing yacht brokerage- my own frustration with inept brokers trying to sell some of my previous boats.
The story Baker told of a buyer's broker telling him to not tell HIS buyer something is disgusting. Even as a listing broker, if I know something is wrong with a boat we tell them 100% up front b/c you do NOT win friends and repeat clients by being a jerk and screwing people over. A buyer's broker is going to do all they can to assure the quality of the vessel AND that the vessel really is going to fit your needs at the time you are buying. Heck, even a quality listing broker is going to want to make sure the boat is a good fit for you b/c life is too short to create unhappy people and unhappy customers.
As already mentioned though- if you are using a buyer's broker, don't bring them into a deal on a listing broker at the last minute- it's not nice or professional. And a buyer's broker that knows what they are doing can save you a ton of heartache and money and wasted time on boats that aren't worth it. It is amazing how much more a listing broker will tell a cooperating broker directly as well so you will typically get more detailed and complete info on a listing via a buyer's broker.
It honestly is terrible to see some of the nonsense broker's try to pull and how seemingly lazy/unmotivated they can be. A good listing broker or a good buyer's broker though can save you tons as a buyer or hugely reduce the time your boat is for sale and get you the best price possible and save a lot of the headaches that go on behind the scenes from impacting you. Heck- I just sold a 41' Meridian yesterday that we got closed despite the absolute best efforts of the seller to mess the deal up due to his attitude and actions, even though he really wanted to sell. If he had not used a broker that boat would NOT be sold right now b/c the buyer would have walked.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:53 PM   #13
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RE: Buyer's Broker

I used a broker on the purchase of our last boat, and it was very helpful I thought. He flew across the countrywith me at his expense to review the boat, and was helpful in the purchase negotiation. One benefit was in getting some reasonably straight answers about condition before traveling. I found that calling "blind" resulted in a boat being described as a "10", whereas a broker to broker call cut through some of the initial chat the boat up pitch. While I take full responsibility for the negotiations, I made all the offers and counter offers through my broker, which I thought took some of the stress out of a direct negotiation. My broker was someone I knew personally, and had experience with (I had listed a boat with him years earlier), so I had a known quantity. I'd do it again (but not for a long time; we like our boat).
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Old 06-16-2011, 09:06 PM   #14
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RE: Buyer's Broker

I would add to the remarks in favor of a broker that you look beyond the purchase of the boat.* Find someone you like and trust as you can benefit from his/her knowledge for years.*In the ten years I have worked with our broker, he has recommended mechanics, advised on equipment and projects, sold us a second boat,*found a delivery captain, and on and on...*
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:21 AM   #15
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RE: Buyer's Broker

Quote:
Baker wrote:
***
Also, I am well versed in how a boat deal goes down...many people are not.* *

Would you be so kind as to share your knowledge.

It may come in handy pretty soon.**** KJ
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:49 AM   #16
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"AND that the vessel really is going to fit your needs at the time you are buying"

That is interesting , not many buyers have a handle on this.

Are brokers a new version of Psycic?
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:41 AM   #17
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RE: Buyer's Broker

FF, let's just say I knew you were going to ask that. :cowboy:
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:29 AM   #18
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RE: Buyer's Broker

While I agree that "you get your own man" if you have a separate man from the one the other party is using, I, as a lawyer, disagree with the comparison being made to using the same lawyer in a divorce. There, the rules are very clear, from a lawyer's perspective, and poorly understood by non-lawyers. The obligation to protect their interest arises with each client, so there can be none of the type of preference JD suggests. To do so would leave the lawyer exposed to complaints to the Law Society, and/or negligence suits. Even in the US, where respect for the legal profession is low, the duties faced by the lawyer exist, and are scrupulously followed (except perhaps on TV). The moment a conflict arises between two of the lawyer's clients, he must cease to represent either party without the express consent of the other.
So in your example of a divorce, (simpliciter, with no issues that require a Judge to resolve them) where only one lawyer is involved, there are always signed consents by the parties, allowing the lawyer to represent both sides. In such cases, where the parties have divided the spoils according to what they thought was fair at the time, only where there is a misunderstanding of the role played by the lawyer will you get the parties later thinking the lawyer represented the other side to their detriment. The fact is that such complaints and general perception about lawyers are frequent, demonstrating my point that the rules are not well understood by the public at large.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:23 AM   #19
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RE: Buyer's Broker

Gentlemen, thank you for some very interesting opinions and observations.

I am hoping a broker will save me some time, leg work, and expense. Very simply, I currently live on the west coast , but am looking at boats on the east coast.* I will be heading that way in August*and would like to check out a few boats while I'm there.

That being said, I would like some recommendations for a broker or agent that you folks might have had dealings with that in your opinion is trustworthy.**

*Thanks again for the input.*** KJ
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:04 AM   #20
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I attended another educational seminar put on by the Florida Yacht Brokers Association last Thursday. These are required for me to keep up my status as a Certified Professional Yacht Broker and they also qualify as continuing education for maritime attorneys. 200 people in a hotel ballroom, all lawyers and yacht brokers, make for some intersting speakers.

The subject of "can a broker represent a buyer when the seller pays the commission?" was discussed, and just like real estate the buyer's broker has an obligation to represent his client in the best way possible. When a broker represents both buyer and seller that fact must be disclosed and if I do that I always write it into the purchase agreement that the broker has fiduciary responsiblity to both parties.

When I deal with another broker on one of my listings, I expect thet he will be working in the best interest of his client, and when I am dealing with a listing broker I work in the best interest of my client.


-- Edited by yachtbrokerguy on Monday 20th of June 2011 10:07:22 AM
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