Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-12-2015, 04:13 PM   #1
Guru
 
ancora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,490
Bump in the night...

Came back from dinner the other night and found a fire engine and two fire boats at the dock behind us. A 44' Silverton had developed an engine fuel leak, (gasoline) the firemen went aboard and pumped foam into the engine room. At 11:45 our boat took a hit on the swim step as the boat was towed out. No damage but it did startle the Sicilian. As usual I heard nothin' and felt nothin'. Just wonderin' how deleterious the foam is to mechanical stuff.
__________________
Advertisement

ancora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 04:17 PM   #2
Guru
 
hmason's Avatar
 
City: Westport, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Magic
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Europa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,904
Hmm, don't know but I'll bet it's less deleterious than fire.
__________________

__________________
Howard
Magic, 1996 Grand Banks Europa
Westport, CT and Stuart, FL
hmason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 05:37 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
City: Southern California
Country: US of A!
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 146
As said... beats the alternative. If I recall from training oh so many years ago... it was mildly corrosive.
Phyrcooler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 08:43 PM   #4
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,602
Oh its going to be a big repair bill alright! Expect everything metal to corrode to some amount over a long time.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Englewood, FL and Cape May, NJ
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 12:05 PM   #5
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,155
That foam is pretty corrosive, so the entire electrical will need a going over...
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 02:16 PM   #6
Guru
 
SCOTTEDAVIS's Avatar
 
City: Vero Beach, FL.
Country: US
Vessel Name: FIREFLY
Vessel Model: Pilgrim 40
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 913
The old protein foam (low and high expansion) was nasty stuff, stunk the high heaven and was very corrosive but the new AFFF (aqueous film forming foam) is more like soap and no more corrosive then the water used in the solution. AFFF was developed by the US Navy for several reasons not the least of them was to not to destroy jet engines when fighting a hot section fire or destroy the mechanical's of a ship fighting a fire.

I was able to use it by the tank full when I was a USAF Firefighter in the late 70's early 80's. Would not want it sprayed in the guts of my boat but as stated beats the alternative.

Not much of the high expansion foam used any more last use was runway foaming now really only used in high cost/loss protection systems like flight deck and hanger deluged systems and they use a very expensive (for obvious reasons)
synthetic HE foam. I doubt that was used by the fire trucks in this case as the cost benefit ratio would make no sense to even carry it.

Been a bunch of years away from it, but that's my take, bumps in the night wake me the heck up.
SCOTTEDAVIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 02:46 PM   #7
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,155
That's good to know....I know some of the oler boats still have the halon fire bottles and I have been told this is corrosive?
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 07:55 PM   #8
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction View Post
That's good to know....I know some of the oler boats still have the halon fire bottles and I have been told this is corrosive?
I dont ever remember hearing Halon 1301 as being corrosive. On the contrary, its only used on very expensive equipment where prevention from damage beyond the fire is paramount. Big $$$$$ and leaves no residue. There is another variant of Halon that might be. We NEVER used anything but 1301 in the power plant.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Englewood, FL and Cape May, NJ
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 09:15 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
City: Leesburg, VA
Country: United States
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 109
Yes, Halon is expensive. It is no longer used as it is Ozone layer depleting. In the US, if you have an existing system with Halon in it you can keep it until it goes off, then you have to replace it with something else. If you are in the EU (or move equipment to the EU) Halon is not allowed at all (even if it is the existing fire protection system).

If you don't see the Halon system actually discharge, there is no residual evidence that the Halon was discharged on the equipment, other than the low pressure warnings on the supply bottles.

Most systems today are CO2 or water mist.
ssobol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 09:18 PM   #10
Guru
 
SCOTTEDAVIS's Avatar
 
City: Vero Beach, FL.
Country: US
Vessel Name: FIREFLY
Vessel Model: Pilgrim 40
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 913
Halon 1301 and Halon 1211 are/were wonderful fire fighting agents. They are among the banned gasses per the EPA Jan. 1 1994 except for use in Aircraft firefighting systems.

Both worked great with some differences. The flood systems use 1301 as it is self discharging from its own pressure and is lighter and works better inside an enclosed space.

1211 is heaver so it carriers further and is more persistent in an outdoor fire such as may be found in a aircraft engine on the flight deck, it does require a propellant to give it some throw distance from the extinguisher so some of the weight is not agent but a propellant. This is the gas used in handheld extinguishers.

Halon is NOT corrosive and not a hazard to human life even in an enclosed space, it is used in computer and electronic facility's to prevent unnecessary damage to millions of dollars worth of equipment when discharged.

They work by disrupting the chemical chain reaction of the fire and are the reason that the old fire triangle is now a tetrahedron.

Halon 1211 and 1301 is no longer available and systems can only be serviced using the existing gas inside them. No refilling as they are considered a ozone depleting gas. they have been replaced with a less effective gas requiring more agent and a much greater cost. The only 1:1 replacement gas I know of is AF11E there is another product called Halotron 1 that is somewhat of a replacement but not using the same systems you have now.

Halon is still used in aircraft extinguishers.

Keep your FireBoy halon systems protected, replacement cost is a shocker.



Regards,
SCOTTEDAVIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 09:25 PM   #11
Guru
 
ulysses's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Shores, Ala.
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ulysses
Vessel Model: Romsdal 1963
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 876
Actually the AFFF has anti-corrosion chemicals in it. It is more like soap and does dilute and cleans up well with just water. It was just hitting the market the last time I attended a marine fire fighting school. Halon has always been my first choice, wish it did not destroy the ozone layer. I wonder about that because it like C02 was heavier than air. Go figure.
dan
ulysses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2015, 10:07 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
City: Leesburg, VA
Country: United States
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTTEDAVIS View Post
... not a hazard to human life even in an enclosed space...
This is not always true. If the concentration of 1301 is at the recommended amount (I think about 4%) than it is effective against the fire and safe for humans. If the concentration is too high it is hazardous to humans. The Halon system should be sized for the application so that the concentrations are correct. However, it is difficult to ensure that all protected areas have a uniform concentration. There can be places that have a higher than recommended concentration depending on how the gas flows and collects. In most cases the Halon system is designed to initially flood the protected area and then maintain the Halon concentration for many minutes (system contains fast and slow discharge bottles).

From Wikipedia:

Human exposure to Halon 1301 can be toxic, affecting the central nervous system and other bodily functions.

and

It is considered good practice to avoid all unnecessary exposure to Halon 1301, and to limit exposures to concentrations of 7 percent and below to 15 minutes. Exposure to Halon 1301 in the 5 to 7 percent range produces little, if any, noticeable effect. At levels between 7 and 10 percent, mild central nervous system effects such as dizziness and tingling in the extremities have been reported.[3] In practice, the operators of many Halon 1301 total flooding systems evacuate the space on impending agent discharge.

I the situation I worked in, the Halon was discharged into an enclosed area that contained people. If the Halon discharged someone had to go into the affected area and ensure that there were no people overcome and left in the area.
ssobol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 07:56 AM   #13
Guru
 
SCOTTEDAVIS's Avatar
 
City: Vero Beach, FL.
Country: US
Vessel Name: FIREFLY
Vessel Model: Pilgrim 40
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssobol View Post
This is not always true. If the concentration of 1301 is at the recommended amount (I think about 4%) than it is effective against the fire and safe for humans. .


"Halon is a liquefied, compressed gas that stops the spread of fire by chemically disrupting combustion. Halon 1211 (a liquid streaming agent) and Halon 1301 (a gaseous flooding agent) leave no residue and are remarkably safe for human exposure."

What is Halon? How does Halon Work? Is Halon legal? Is Halon Safe?

Everything in moderation.

When the systems discharge you leave, I went to work. Air-pack was not required to be in use but you had to have it on.

Many taxpayer dollars were spent on my training on installed and portable Halon systems. I received the certifications and the T-shirt
SCOTTEDAVIS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 09:01 AM   #14
Guru
 
ulysses's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Shores, Ala.
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ulysses
Vessel Model: Romsdal 1963
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 876
I had my Halon fixed engine room system and two hand held extinguishers serviced and refilled in the Dominican Republic in February. Evidently it does not deplete the ozone layer down there. Cost $120.00.
dan
ulysses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 02:05 PM   #15
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,159
I just had our Halon system, its manual pull, and 7 portables (4 were from our house) "serviced" too -- for $120 -- in Annapolis.

"Service" meant checking the weights and connections, though; no re-charging required or involved.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 04:32 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
Very interesting thread. Much of what is being said is true and some is outright wrong. I'll set the record straight when I see an outright lie that matters. Halons are called clean agents for a reason........ They are mostly all toxic in higher than say 7% concentrations. There are replacements for 1301 that do not eat ozone such as FM200. You will need to change equipment to use. U.S. signed Montreal Protocol and Halon 1301 can be used/reused but is no longer made. In other countries that did not sign the treaty it is still made and available. Protien foam and AFFF concentrate are both corrosive. Haven't seen protein foam in many years. Fire department most likely used a 1, 3, or 6% AFFF, good wash down with some salt away and engine room corrosion will be OK ...except the flooding is not good.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 05:14 PM   #17
Guru
 
ulysses's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Shores, Ala.
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ulysses
Vessel Model: Romsdal 1963
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 876
From the AFFF MSDS sheet: PH of 7-8.5 no longer corrosive. A corrosive inhibitor changing ph characteristics is now part of the chemicals in AFFF.
ulysses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 05:24 PM   #18
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,794
Halon is not available in St. Lucia or Grenada
__________________
Marty
Bay Pelican is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 05:26 PM   #19
Guru
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction's Avatar
 
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,155
Good to know and it would appear i was wrong about Halon...
__________________
1988 M/Y Camargue Yacht Fisher
Alaskan Sea-Duction
MMSI: 338131469
Blog: http://alaskanseaduction.blogspot.com/
Alaskan Sea-Duction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2015, 05:41 PM   #20
Guru
 
ulysses's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Shores, Ala.
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Ulysses
Vessel Model: Romsdal 1963
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 876
Alaskan Sea-Duction: I really hate to cause an argument but you may be seriously mistaken in stating that you were "wrong" about Halon. Please read your earlier post. You probably did hear from someone that it was corrosive.

dan
__________________

ulysses is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012