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Old 04-19-2014, 11:32 PM   #21
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This broker say's:

Yeah, the Internet is a sword that cuts in both directions. On one hand it makes it easier for buyers and sellers world wide to quickly find you, and on the other hand it makes it easier for buyers to quickly find other sellers, brokers, and boats.


To my fellow Broker I suggest that the best you can do is thank people politely for their time, wish them the best of luck, and to remember you when they wake up in the future. It's like fishing- you don't expect to catch every fish, or it would be called catching. I've been doing this for 40 years now, and if I had a nickel for EVERY one of these buyers who made mistakes, calling me up years later saying "you were right, I should had listened"- I would have several dollars by now- but THE next time they do listen to you after you help them liquidate their mistakes - they then allow you to find them the right boat for them (which might be NOT what they thought they wanted)- then you get repeat business, along with great referrals. And sometimes people are just scum bags. I've had them stay the night in my house, pet my kid, look me in the eyes, and say they're buying a boat from me, and then go right around my back and buy it from another to save a dollar- It happens. Karma has a way of catching them. No problem. What goes around-comes around. A honest person can't be conned, only a greedy person-ask the gypsies across the canal in their mega mansion. They depend on that fact to play their games, but even they get caught in a "great deal".



Just feel solace, and sleep well tonight that YOU didn't sell that buyer whatever he ended up buying, it was his choice, so he can't blame you when he discovers he should had listened. When I sell a boat- I'm thinking WAY past the buyer, I'm thinking "how easy will it be to resale this boat for this guy in 3 years, and then to the next guy after that, and the next guy after that?" If the answer is: "I don't think I can"- I'll recommend the buyer go buy whatever delusion he's chasing from some Brokerage with a fictitious name that won't be around next year to complain to, and even if you sue them- you won't know who the real owner is anyway, and he'll just keep reopening brokerages under other fictitious names and move state to state.. (speaking of Symbol Yachts).
Cheer up, and MOVE up. Just remember buyers wanting fast boats BUY fast, and those wanting slow boats buy slow. You've seen what happened to the sailboat market haven't you? You see what's happening on the fast boat market right now? What I like about the Internet is now I rarely have to drive a buyer anywhere, most mine buy sight unseen relying on just ALL my large photos and specs, I have posted on the Internet, along with references from others who've bought this way from me. THAT I like about the Internet. Back when I was single-you couldn't beat Match.com for quick companionship..like pretty rich doctors, lawyers, and rich divorcees would just come over to your house- right quick. Internet is good for speed.
And this wasn't a rant..this was love.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:50 PM   #22
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I think the buyer in Marks story hurt himself as well as Mark. I know if I had established a relationship with a broker and then found a boat on my own, I would have called my broker to help me with the purchase.

I've had a lot of real estate dealings recently. If I see a property I'm interested in, I never call the name on the sign. I call a broker I know and trust and ask him to find out about the property. That way he gets a piece of the commission and I get good advise. Usually it's "Are you insane? Don't buy that!" He doesn't make a lot of sales with that advise but it's why I call him every time.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:19 AM   #23
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My intent in ranting was to educate those who might not have known this.
Please guys, I don't ever do anything backhandedly. I stated my intentions in both my original post and above in my second. Where else could I post this as this is the only place I post? I never called anybody out and would never reveal a client no matter what. I'm very sorry that someone chose to reveal themselves that was never, never, never my wish. I will not discuss the specifics of this deal now that anonymity has been lifted. I think the majority of the time these things happen it is out of ignorance and not ill intent. I wanted people to understand the job that some brokers do and stick my neck out in attempting to foster greater understanding so if a client in any walk of life chooses this path that they do so knowingly. I would never contractually bind a client to use my services. They are always free to do as they choose, I think it's important that we know the results of our actions as the outcome can often be unintended. I told this client they are always welcome to call on me if they need anything and that I truly hope the sale works out. That's the way I do things.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:26 AM   #24
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"ONLY Brokers in Florida and California are licensed."

Just so people know Virginia requires a license and bond and MD requires pretty extensive licensing by the brokerage.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:32 AM   #25
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HopCar,
On a side note I finally just realized your ride. Donnie builds one hell of a boat doesn't he?! I hope to have announcement soon regarding those guys.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:37 AM   #26
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"ONLY Brokers in Florida and California are licensed."

Just so people know Virginia requires a license and bond and MD requires pretty extensive licensing by the brokerage.
I didn't know that. Live and learn-I stand corrected. Thank you. There's a Yacht and Ship Division in the State government in Virginia that can pull licenses and chain doors shut, and seize bonds upon a formal complaint? I didn't know that..but regardless I'd already deleted this when I edited my post.
Of course having a license certainly hasn't stopped a good amount of thieves in Florida OR California by any means, and many were under fictitious Brokerage names anyway, so the public might not know the actual name of the thieves, and some of them just moved to other states. Although I can't think of any that actually had their brokerages names the same as their own, daddies, and kids. Sometimes I wish I had gone with a fictitious name so I could sell popular boats that I don't wish to have associated with my name. Certainly would make more money if I sold boats with latent defects-that's for sure. Can't though- ghosts would get me!
Some of the most honorable Brokers I know reside in States that don't require any.
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Old 04-20-2014, 01:13 AM   #27
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Well, hopefully it'll all even out in the end. Sure, you lost that sale after a significant investment of time and effort, but next time somebody will appear on your doorstep and jump into a sale after some other broker invested lots of time. All evens out in the end - or at least it should.

I have a broker with Pop yachts who has been browsing boats for me for two years. I only mention that brokerage specifically because that one is a highly automated, online brokerage, kind of unusual that way. He can track which of their listings I look at most, and he's got the capability to shoot me automated emails to flag boats that track with my search history. He also sends me personal emails too. I like the guy, even with a highly automated sales tracking system he's spent a lot of time on me. I would love to buy a boat from him eventually, but so far haven't found THE ONE. Maybe it will be his listing eventually. Maybe not. But I expect it will all even out in the end.

(I asked him once if he acts as a buyer's broker, but he never answered the question. Could be that that brokerage is exclusively online with their own listings, I don't know.)
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Old 04-20-2014, 01:26 AM   #28
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I would be careful with them is my two cents. Odd your guy wouldn't answer that question? I have had clients mention long after the fact that they were working with brokers. I have always protected the other broker once I learn of their existence no matter how involved or not.
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Old 04-20-2014, 01:29 AM   #29
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Let's keep one thing in mind. Mark did not disclose or point to the client or non-client, as it turned out, in name or any way I could discern.

As to what happened, none of us know the specifics nor are they really important to this discussion.

The fact is that there are good brokers and bad brokers. The relationship between broker and client is very important as is good communication. Frankly, the best way I know to insure that communication is something in writing. Doesn't have to be a contract since that would be contrary to the industry norm in buyer's situations. But if I was a broker, I'd hand a brief document of some sort outlining what I would do for the buyer and then what I asked (note the soft word "asked") of them in return.

A fact of life for brokers or persons in sales of any form is that most "customers" never actually convert to purchases. You spend money on every potential customer or client, but you only get payback on a few. Hopefully enough to justify what you spend.

Now, as to buyers, if you don't feel the broker is doing what you need, do go to another. But please do it for service. Doing it to try to cut the commission might save you money, at least might appear to, but is that really fair? Each year many of the good, responsive, knowledgeable brokers tend to retire or otherwise move on. They're at best replaced by less experienced. But often they're replaced by huge brokerages just bringing another disposable (I don't consider anyone disposable but sometimes they treat them as they are) young eager person on board.

Bad brokers can be a waste of time and money. But good brokers can pay for themselves many many times over. Most used boats in the trawler range are sold through brokers. A good broker can work you through things and help you avoid mistakes. A bad broker can encourage you into mistakes. But do recognize for it to work, you need to do your part as well. Stay in touch. Make it clear what you expect from them.

On the other hand, part of being a broker is qualifying the client and deciding what time and energy to spend. If you believe it's a good investment of your time, you stay active and on top of the situation. If you don't stay in touch and actively working for them, then don't be disappointed when they sell or buy without you.

Ultimately brokerage is a service business and I do believe ultimately good service will be rewarded. However, the growth of some of the mass merchants in retail make you wonder sometimes. Still, I'm committed to service and found in our little area of the retail world it seems to be paying. So to the broker, provide service and value not just worth your fee in your mind, but that the client will perceive worth the fee. And to the potential client, lay out your expectations clearly, if they aren't met discuss, and if that doesn't work, move to another.

When it becomes a matter of just dollars and cents then both the broker and the client will end up losing. When it's all geared toward service, then both will win.
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:18 AM   #30
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You need to explain to people what you can offer if they are looking at boats listed by another broker. Also good to explain how a commission works on the boats that you broker, and that it is the seller who pays your percentage. Presented propperly, it's not offensive to the customer and helps them understand that you are a small business and this is how you make you get paid.
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Thank you but that is always one of the first things I do when acting as a buyer's broker. I make very sure that my clients understand the "business" end of things. My intent in ranting was to educate those who might not have known this.
Well ... call me ignorant ... but how the buyer broker thing works. I never used one ... I always dealt with boat seller's broker myself.

What constitutes or commences the buyer and broker business relation. I can sense it's not a black and white thing, and somehow different than in real estate.

This might be an opportunity to educate the ignorant ...
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Old 04-20-2014, 03:42 AM   #31
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Well ... call me ignorant ... but how the buyer broker thing works. I never used one ... I always dealt with boat seller's broker myself.

What constitutes or commences the buyer and broker business relation. I can sense it's not a black and white thing, and somehow different than in real estate.

This might be an opportunity to educate the ignorant ...
Your method works but understand two negatives. First, you're really talking to the seller. Not going to do anything to steer you into what is right for you in most cases. His obligation is clear. Second, you're going to be contacting a lot of brokers. In doing so you may not be as important as you should be to some. If you'll only look at one boat with them, they'll think you're just window shopping sometimes. All of them want but some will.

By having your own broker as a buyer there are certain benefits. Let's be clear they are not a buyer's broker as such unless you have a contract saying so. They are a broker chosen by buyer and helping the buyer but their true obligation is to the seller, because that's who is paying them. To change that would take a contract stating they are your representative and responsible to you. Still some will show they feel obligated to help you regardless. They will help you with negotiation, contracting, steps to take, even refer you for documentation, loans, or insurance. But most importantly they'll help you find the right boat. They don't care which it is. Just one, the right one. They should listen to you and talk to you about types and brands, likes and dislikes. Then search, but not just what is on Yachtworld or Boat Trader. They should inquire and qualify the boat. Then take you to the one, two or three that meet your needs best. So the two benefits are (1) you pick up some personal assistance and direction and may make a better decision plus learn of more boats and (2) you may save a lot of time in the process. There is a third I should add. Using the seller's broker you don't get to choose, it's who he chose. Using a broker yourself, you get to interview brokers and find one you're comfortable with.

Now this is when it works as it should. Otherwise it's easier to do what you've done.

In deciding which way to go, I'd consider my own knowledge and experience in the type boat I was searching for, the time I had available, and just my tolerance for having to talk to many brokers as opposed to one.

I personally would never go to all the different selling brokers for one personal reason. I want someone to work with as I go through the entire process, whether I look at one or ten boats. What I don't want is looking at 5 boats and 5 brokers then contacting me constantly about the boat they showed me and others, and probably sometimes about the same boat. I do not enjoy hard sells or talking to a lot of salespersons.

Now I must give one caveat to all this. While I know the process well and have helped friends who bought plus have friends who are brokers, I've not actually been through it as I've never purchased a used boat. But in many ways they work very much like house brokers, just not as many legal restrictions in most areas. Not to offend any broker and I know the good brokers won't be, but in most areas being a boat broker doesn't require any courses nor any apprenticeship of any sort. So while there are many great ones, there are some who have no idea what they're doing and others with no integrity.
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:31 AM   #32
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It's the nature of forums. I think TF is a little better than most but much has to change or else it's going to die. As proof to that, I offer this question: how many women participate here? 2%? If that? Women won't put up with much of the crap that goes on here. It can't continue over the long term unless and until women are a part of the conversation (remember that quote!).

.

I really don't think so.
Men are more likely to be overt, while women covert, for obvious reasons.
Just because the thoughts are not said, does not make it nicer.

THis forum works and is useful because contributors are willing to say what's on thier mind, good, bad or ugly.

i'd rather have a contributor like Mark, say his piece, then go sulk like others have and lose his valuable contributions. And if you don't like his contributions, don't ... read them.
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:15 AM   #33
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>If that? Women won't put up with much of the crap that goes on here.<

Nonsense, my bride is an ex. capt of her own cruiser racer, and is delighted with the extra space of our 50 ft.

Sadly she has ZERO interest in swopping oil change techniques , or holding tank blow outs repair techniques...

But then I am not a knitter or weaver , and do not participate in her forums.

It took 60 years but even Time mag finally realized there is a difference between boyz and goils!

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Buyers are Liars.

Not even the Saints among brokers will list low priced , fix her up, style boats.

Miles and miles of Lookey Lou time wasters with big dreams , but no dimes .

Time is money,
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:07 AM   #34
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OK. So I'm the ass it would appear.

Mark and I did talk on the phone a few times and we did exchange many emails quite awhile back. I did go look at a boat he had listed in MD and didn't like it, like maybe a year ago? Really didn't hear from him much after that and I figured that was that. We did talk about him being a buyers broker, but we never had any formal, written agreement, and I don't remember him EVER sending me any boats, but I could be misremembering.

Since then I've looked at quite a few boats (and posted them up here) and did not use any buyers brokers on any of them or talk to Mark, and never heard from him. I really didn't think we had any agreement.

I'm a little surprised he is going off on me now, but I do (and did) apologize because now I feel like I've f$&ked it up somehow, so I understand his frustration.

I'm in sales so do get it, but I don't tend to whine when shit doesn't go my way.

Don't want to start a pissing match, but wanted to respond.
I don't think you did anything wrong. It's the salespersons job to size up the client in order to make the sale. This reminds me of a house I bought once where I was working with one agent who did his best to show me houses that were in my budget even though clearly I wanted more house than my money would buy. I got talking with another agent and he sized me up perfectly, took me out one night showed me 3 houses within my price range and then the fourth and final house was what I was really looking for even though it was more money than I wanted to spend. I bought the fourth house. The first agent tried to make a case out of it but in the end it was him who didn't read me right. You snooze you loose.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:15 AM   #35
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Nonsense, my bride is an ex. capt of her own cruiser racer, and is delighted with the extra space of our 50 ft.

Sadly she has ZERO interest in swopping oil change techniques , or holding tank blow outs repair techniques...
That's cherry picking a few subject areas that women probably aren't interested in.

The reality and the reasons women are not here go much deeper. As proof, Facebook groups about boating and cruising are filled with women contributing and taking part in the conversations. There's magic in understanding why...
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:24 AM   #36
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Like I said I'm not going to get into the specifics now that the buyer has exposed himself. That said please don't start into a who's right who's wrong as I have not detailed my side, and won't to protect my client. The topic should stay on the broad topic and not the specifics of this case as none of you are totally aware of either sides version. The questions lie in a better understanding of the roles of the broker and clients. I have decided to add a client's bill of rights statement to pass on to my clients. The statement should help to educate the public and cut down on unintended consequences.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:29 AM   #37
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The sheer number of women in boating that place it high as a hobby...over keeping up with friends and family is very low.

My liveaboard girlfriend also enjoys the cruising life but barely has much interest in the nut's and bolts of boating other than slightly assisting in docking. No way would she be on any forum other than when I point out something of interest to her.

Sure in the "pure" cruising circles...there's plenty of women with the same captain rating as their sig other...but not from the general boating population...I would say that of all the boaters I know...and I know plenty as I tow them 8 months out of the year.... I would say it's only a couple percent that would be on this or any boating forum as much as the regulars are.

They have better things to do with their time.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:30 AM   #38
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Like I said I'm not going to get into the specifics now that the buyer has exposed himself. That said please don't start into a who's right who's wrong as I have not detailed my side, and won't to protect my client. The topic should stay on the broad topic and not the specifics of this case as none of you are totally aware of either sides version. The questions lie in a better understanding of the roles of the broker and clients. I have decided to add a client's bill of rights statement to pass on to my clients. The statement should help to educate the public and cut down on unintended consequences.
Great idea...too bad we have so many uneducated consumers in this world.

In fact I think education and knowledge have become four letter words these days....
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:32 AM   #39
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That's cherry picking a few subject areas that women probably aren't interested in.

The reality and the reasons women are not here go much deeper. As proof, Facebook groups about boating and cruising are filled with women contributing and taking part in the conversations. There's magic in understanding why...
I know we're getting a bit off subject but isn't that the nature of a conversation? Jeff, I'd love to hear more about your take on what is the reason for the lack of female participation on this forum?
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:39 AM   #40
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