Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-17-2013, 04:53 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
Broker ??'s

Say I found a boat I like. Can I speak with and negotiate with the owner?
What services do the broker provide if I have already found a boat?
Who pays his fee?
What is the normal fee a broker receives?

If I have found a boat I like it seems, (sorry brokers) the seller and buyer could save whatever the fee would be.

I am new to this so please do not flame me.

Trying to learn how this is all done.
__________________
Advertisement

BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:04 PM   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
jwnall's Avatar
 
City: St. Marks, Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
Say I found a boat I like. Can I speak with and negotiate with the owner?
What services do the broker provide if I have already found a boat?
Who pays his fee?
What is the normal fee a broker receives?

If I have found a boat I like it seems, (sorry brokers) the seller and buyer could save whatever the fee would be.

I am new to this so please do not flame me.

Trying to learn how this is all done.
You can always talk to the owner, of course. It is a free country. But an ethical owner will refer you to the broker. The owner pays broker fees. Negotiating a price is between you and the owner. A boat broker plays an important role, just as a real estate broker does. Are there some of them who should be taken out and dropped overboard with dive weights attached? Of course. But my experience (bought several boats, sold several boats) has always been positive.

This is not a flame. You asked for info, and I gave you my opinion. Others may differ.
__________________

__________________
John
jwnall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:30 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
Fair enough

Another question.

Does the broker complete the paperwork part of the deal?

Say we get to the survey part of the deal and my guy finds the boat needs repairs and we put a dollar value on them.

If I have cash in hand, not a finance deal, no "let me see if I can finance this." who is to say I don't make a low offer. In lieu of the owner making the repairs.

I guess what I am trying to say is I want the best price I can negotiate down to.

I have never owned a new car in my life. I have made some terrific deals on used cars...Do we negotiate that way with multi thousand dollar boats?
BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:50 PM   #4
Moderator Emeritus
 
jwnall's Avatar
 
City: St. Marks, Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,621
The broker generally completes the paperwork part of the deal.

I repeat what I said before -- negotiating a price is between you and the owner. The broker does not, and should not, get involved.

The question you are asking is pretty obvious -- "If we cut the broker out of the deal, can I save some money?" You might, if you deal with an owner who does not realize the legal problems he or she might be facing from the broker. Granted, most brokers will probably not take it to court. But they could. As you say, we are talking about multi-thousand dollar boats.

My advice? Don't nickle and dime. If you can afford a trawler, then do like the rest of us do and follow the established rules. And (again, no flame), if you need to worry about the nickles and the dimes, then really, you should not be getting into Trawler World. Because, as others can well attest, when you buy the boat your financial issues have only just begun! :-)
__________________
John
jwnall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 06:22 PM   #5
TF Site Team
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
Another question.

Does the broker complete the paperwork part of the deal?

Say we get to the survey part of the deal and my guy finds the boat needs repairs and we put a dollar value on them.

If I have cash in hand, not a finance deal, no "let me see if I can finance this." who is to say I don't make a low offer. In lieu of the owner making the repairs.

I guess what I am trying to say is I want the best price I can negotiate down to.

I have never owned a new car in my life. I have made some terrific deals on used cars...Do we negotiate that way with multi thousand dollar boats?
Yes, the broker handles the paperwork, and/or subs it out to a professional organization.

The typical purchase path:
  1. Find boat, make offer subject to survey/sea trial, etc
  2. Survey and sea trial
  3. Possible renegotiation after survey
  4. meeting of the minds happens, paperwork and money flows, and you own the boat.

Yes, if the surveyor finds down gripes, it's perfectly reasonable for the seller to expect a counter based on said repairs. I've always been of the mindset that I'll make an initial offer, and renegotiate after survey. I believe that if you grind a seller down in the original offer process, you have no room to talk after the survey.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 06:22 PM   #6
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwnall View Post
The broker generally completes the paperwork part of the deal. I repeat what I said before -- negotiating a price is between you and the owner. The broker does not, and should not, get involved.
Things must be done differently in your area. In Canada and every deal I've been involved with south of the border it was the brokers job to negotiate the price with the buyer, just like a real estate agent is the one who does the negotiation not the owner..
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 06:43 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
Thanks again all for the responses. I am not suggesting doing anything un ethical just attempting to educate myself as to the rules of the road so to speak.

I would never attempt to sell my home without a Realtor, because of all the paper work involved. And I would never attempt to cut a broker out of his due fee.

As I asked in my original post. If I walk the dock and see a boat for sale that I want to purchase, why then might I need a broker?

In my mind the seller sets his hope-d for price, he keeps his real price to himself.
The buyer, knowing this offers what he hopes is the sellers acceptance price. At least this is how I operate when purchasing cars.
And a $10K discount will buy a lot of Diesel fuel.!!
BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 06:52 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Russell Clifton's Avatar
 
City: Marysville, Wa.
Country: usa
Vessel Name: Sea Fever
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 283
Jim, You didn't say if the boat was listed through a broker, or is the owner selling it on his own? If it was listed through a broker and a broker showed you the boat, than he is going to get a commission. As said before, the seller pays the commission, not the buyer. Good luck.
Russell Clifton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:01 PM   #9
Moderator Emeritus
 
jwnall's Avatar
 
City: St. Marks, Florida
Country: US
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,621
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
I am not suggesting doing anything un ethical just attempting to educate myself as to the rules of the road so to speak.

I would never attempt to sell my home without a Realtor, because of all the paper work involved. And I would never attempt to cut a broker out of his due fee.
!
Trust me. It was not taken in a negative sense. It was taken that you were asking a perfectly reasonable question, and I most sincerely hope that I did not offend you with my responses. They were not intended that way.
__________________
John
jwnall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:01 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
City: Cheyenne, WY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Wanderlust
Vessel Model: Gulfstar 36 Trawler
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 44
Send a message via Skype™ to gts1544
Opening Pandora's Box, I assume that, like in real estate, the seller's broker has very little fiduciary responsibility to the buyer. He is ethically, morally and legally bound to represent the seller, who pays his commission. That said, in the marine world, is there such a thing as a buyer's broker, hired and paid by the buyer, who has the same responsibilities to the buyer? gts1544 - George
gts1544 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:28 PM   #11
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441
If said boat is listed with a broker in most/not all cases for sale by owner is not an option. In this typical case you call the listing broker or your buyer's broker and they make all contacts with the seller unless other arrangements are made after the initial contact. If you contact the listing broker than he very much has a fiduciary/moral/ethical responsibility to both of you. He is acting as a duel broker in this common scenario. His fee has already been contracted for in the listing agreement. In other words he can not be cut out legally nor should he be.

Trust me on this one:
You do not if at all possible want to negotiate the price with the seller!! This is often the most difficult part of a broker's job.

Yes the broker handles the paperwork.
__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:32 PM   #12
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts1544 View Post
That said, in the marine world, is there such a thing as a buyer's broker, hired and paid by the buyer, who has the same responsibilities to the buyer? gts1544 - George
Yes, I act as the buyer's broker often. No you do not pay his fee. He is paid out of the listing commission.
__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 07:36 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
So we negotiate...

With the sellers broker?
Might my survey guy tag along to back up the deficiencies cited?
I assume the seller has already informed the broker of his absolute lowest price?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyo View Post
If said boat is listed with a broker in most/not all cases for sale by owner is not an option. In this typical case you call the listing broker or your buyer's broker and they make all contacts with the seller unless other arrangements are made after the initial contact. If you contact the listing broker than he very much has a fiduciary/moral/ethical responsibility to both of you. He is acting as a duel broker in this common scenario. His fee has already been contracted for in the listing agreement. In other words he can not be cut out legally nor should he be.

Trust me on this one:
You do not if at all possible want to negotiate the price with the seller!! This is often the most difficult part of a broker's job.

Yes the broker handles the paperwork.
BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 08:00 PM   #14
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,011
you might want to read Use a Broker or Not ?
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 08:04 PM   #15
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441
I'm not sure what you mean by those first two questions. The broker and the seller never really know what the bottom line is. What you will sell something for today vs tomorrow is a moving target. Keep in mind if you negotiate a ridiculously low price there is a double edge sword. That price is reported in soldboats.com and when you go to sell her that price will show and you have in effect lowered the bar for all owners of that model. I think the operative phrase should be best value not lowest price.
__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 09:14 PM   #16
Member
 
City: Gig Harbor, WA
Country: US
Vessel Name: Micki
Vessel Model: 42' Grand Banks
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyo View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by those first two questions. The broker and the seller never really know what the bottom line is. What you will sell something for today vs tomorrow is a moving target. Keep in mind if you negotiate a ridiculously low price there is a double edge sword. That price is reported in soldboats.com and when you go to sell her that price will show and you have in effect lowered the bar for all owners of that model. I think the operative phrase should be best value not lowest price.
Amen Daddyo!!
The words Cheap and Value don't even belong in the same dictionary. Cheap is often a trap - it gets you something that nobody else wants. And regardless of what the reasons for that mean to you, there's still that day you'll want to sell the (thing that nobody else wanted).

I've made a career trading "big ticket" items. Here's a few things I've lost a lot of money learning:

#1 - Buying cheap and subsequently selling cheap is a tough way to go. Cheap can rarely be cheap enough. (And I hate to break it to you now, Dear Reader; you're really NOT going to keep it forever.

#2 - Pay more for "the right" (boat or whatever). There's a reason they cost more and it'll still be there when you get around to selling. Boston Whaler being a perfect example.

#3 - As wrong as it sounds: 90% of the time there is a better deal to be had by using a professional. A boat broker has a "Fiduciary Responsibility" to the seller? Sure. But guess what: They need to feed their families too. The fact is that a party removed - and I use the R word loosely - will almost always have more luck negotiating or talking sense with a seller.

In the boat world a seller pays the broker. In theory that suggests there's a commission to be saved without him/ her. In real life that's almost never the case.
Trawler Micki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:09 PM   #17
GFC
Guru
 
GFC's Avatar
 
City: Tri Cities, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Beachcomber
Vessel Model: Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,695
Of the 3 "larger" boats I've owned, I dealt directly with the owners on two of them, but you must understand that I LOVE to negotiate on things. Most people hate buying cars because they hate the negotiating. I live for it.

I think owners are easier to negotiate with if I can talk with them directly. I can get a feel for their emotional attachment for the boat, get a feeling for why they are selling, etc.

I ALWAYS have a survey done and use the deficiencies the surveyor discloses as points to negotiate for a lower price. This is done after the preliminary negotiations are done "subject to the results of buyer's survey(s)". At that point (after the surveys) I know what deficiencies there are and what the surveyor estimates it will cost to correct them. I found the best way to negotiate that is to reduce the selling price by the cost of the major items and split the cost of less serious items.

As part of the negotiations from that point forward I insist that I be able to get the work done at a facility of my choosing. That way if I want to do some of the work myself it doesn't cost me out of pocket and by controlling where I get the work done I can more closely control the quality of the work.

On the purchase of Beachcomber I used a broker to negotiate parts of the sale because he was more experienced in many areas, but I did the price negotiating with the selling broker (the brokerage owned the boat).

I paid my broker a flat fee for his work. That left the selling brokerage to keep my broker's share of the commission and I used that as an additional price negotiating tool.
__________________
Mike and Tina
Beachcomber 1995 Sea Ray 550 Sedan Bridge
GFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:24 PM   #18
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
IMHO - Find a product you like... boat/car/truck/house... whatever. Make an offer on what you feel its value is to you. No diff if the offer is to seller or broker... you should already be set in the price you will pay - Period! Of course in beginning of offer/sales contract put in contingencies where you can back out if needed and so you can adjust price if needed due to unexpected items. Then if the deal does not go as you require - Move On To the Next One! Don't ever be afraid to walk away from a deal - Ain't no anchor tied to your you know what!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:37 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
City: CA
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 178
Thanks again everyone.
i have bought and sold at least 20 cars in my life, never wanted to own a new car. Something about the loss of value off the lot. So yes I wheel and deal. Don't like my offer, no worries, no sale. But my bag of 100 dollar bills has gotten me some cool cars for cheap.

So tell me, will having $300K in my back pocket yield me anything on price? Assuming that is the agreed upon price. Does financing affect the deal?

And why are some boats listed as not for sale in USA when in fact they are in the USA?
BigJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 10:48 PM   #20
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,570
The selling broker is the sellers agent and certainly has a fiduciary duty to the seller.
So do real estate agents/brokers. I did it for fun for a couple of years post retirement, it was apparent most agents were away the day fiduciary duty was taught, they were in it for themselves not the seller ( "I`ll see the seller tonite and crunch him on the offer" etc). I expect many (not all) boat brokers missed the fiduciary duty lecture too. A buyer can turn that to advantage.
__________________

__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012