Broker experiences?

[salishpaddler]

Here is a excerpt of the email the seller's broker sent to my broker, verbatim with annotations. FYI, this boat was and still is advertised as "in Bristol condition" and my contingencies reflected that expectation, although after I noted a Bristol condition boat should be free of piles of seagull **** staining the canvas and hardtop, the broker conveniently deleted that photo from their ad:

“We will not be submitting any more offers from you with such unreasonable contingencies attached. If your clients expect to purchase a new boat of this size and class then you should up their budget by $8-900K. That said, I am surprised that you would even go so far as to submit such an unreasonable and open ended piece of paper which no one in their right mind would ever consider signing. Everyones time is wasted here and I will not annoy my client with any further “offers” from your clients. . . .(owner) was not happy with any of this nor was I. Inexperience is evident either in your clients or yourself and in future it would be advisable for you to coach your clients prior to submitting offers to anyone. The types of terms indicated on you addendum page are ridiculous on their face and possibly in violation of the terms agreed to on the previous pages. We have no intention of dragging our valued clients thru the mud and . . . (owner's) final response is “no thanks”.”

 

[BandB]

Here is a excerpt of the email the seller's broker sent to my broker, verbatim with annotations. FI, this boat is advertised as "in Bristol condition" and my contingencies reflected that expectation:

“We will not be submitting any more offers from you with such unreasonable contingencies attached. If your clients expect to purchase a new boat of this size and class then you should up their budget by $8-900K. That said, I am surprised that you would even go so far as to submit such an unreasonable and open ended piece of paper which no one in their right mind would ever consider signing. Everyones time is wasted here and I will not annoy my client with any further “offers” from your clients. . . .(owner) was not happy with any of this nor was I. Inexperience is evident either in your clients or yourself and in future it would be advisable for you to coach your clients prior to submitting offers to anyone. The types of terms indicated on you addendum page are ridiculous on their face and possibly in violation of the terms agreed to on the previous pages. We have no intention of dragging our valued clients thru the mud and . . . (owner's) final response is “no thanks”.”

Did the accepted offer have that addendum page and those contingencies as part of it?

 

[salishpaddler]

Did the accepted offer have that addendum page and those contingencies as part of it?

It did not. Broker rejected it after seeing the contingencies on the addendum page, taking particular offense at the contingency that stated the boat would be free of seagull deposits staining the canvas, as it's costly and time-consuming to remove such stains. My contingencies were based on the Bristol condition claim, and so also stated the survey would involve a diesel mechanic who would conduct an in-depth examination of the diesel engines, since one melted down and was replaced after only 500 hours, hence a 1500 hour discrepancy between the CAT 3208TA engines.

I later consulted with a Northwest Yacht Brokers Association official who informed me this particular broker has amassed a number of complaints against him and I should consider filing an ethics complaint against him myself for misrepresentation, but I honestly don't know what good purpose that would serve if he's already a known quantity.

In the meantime, the broker continues to stubbornly cling to his fraudulent "Bristol" claim.

 

[BruceK]

The animated broker response seems to say, more than once,that the owner is involved in the rejection and refusal to deal further.
In real estate, an agency/brokerage would deal with offensive or excessively low offers by seeking the buyers consent to not communicating the offer as it was likely to "do harm". Owners can be offended by bad offers.
Put very generally, to be entitled to commission,a broker has to have brought about the sale, as well as introducing the buyer. It matters not if the buyer purchases after the expiration of the brokerage agreement.
In this instance I`m a tad wary of the information provided and the objectivity. The OP understandably has an emotional involvement. Advertisements often contain "puffery", to literally hold broker and seller to all words in the advertisement can be unrealistic. Most of the time it just means the boat is for sale.

 

[salishpaddler]

The animated broker response seems to say, more than once,that the owner is involved in the rejection and refusal to deal further.
In real estate, an agency/brokerage would deal with offensive or excessively low offers by seeking the buyers consent to not communicating the offer as it was likely to "do harm". Owners can be offended by bad offers.
Put very generally, to be entitled to commission,a broker has to have brought about the sale, as well as introducing the buyer. It matters not if the buyer purchases after the expiration of the brokerage agreement.
In this instance I`m a tad wary of the information provided and the objectivity. The OP understandably has an emotional involvement. Advertisements often contain "puffery", to literally hold broker and seller to all words in the advertisement can be unrealistic. Most of the time it just means the boat is for sale.

The price had been agreed on and the addendum page was the final formality. Even so, there may be some merit to what you say about my position, because I'm certainly not objective and I appreciate your comments. My new broker has gently advised me to look elsewhere for a boat as this entire transaction has been soiled and will never be put right. But it does pain me to see that boat still sitting at the slip, unattended and wanting someone, anyone, to put it back into service after some 18 months of apparent neglect while waiting for a suitable buyer.

 

[smitty477]

"My new broker has gently advised me to look elsewhere for a boat as this entire transaction has been soiled and will never be put right. But it does pain me to see that boat still sitting at the slip, unattended and wanting someone, anyone, to put it back into service after some 18 months of apparent neglect while waiting for a suitable buyer."

What actions can you take to secure either the current Tolly or Uniflite boats that fit your requirements now?

 

[BruceK]

Your broker was right there, and says the transaction is dead and can`t be revived. I think you harbor the suspicion it was the sellers broker who got in the way,rather than the seller. That the boat remains unsold after a long time is equivocal, broker, seller, or a combination. Being very direct,it`s also possible they were rightly pissed off with your requirements, of which we might not know everything.
I once wanted a clause in the Agreement the seller empty the holding tank pre handover. The Broker didn`t like that, I remonstrated I wasn`t buying a tankful of someone else`s sewage, he didn`t like that either. Sale fell through for other reasons, I wanted warranties on work the seller had volunteered to do, he refused, I walked.
I`ve dealt with "buyers" I could tell were going to be trouble,no matter what the sale Agreement said,and was glad when they went away. I had a suspicion(relying on years of legal practice) one was asking certain questions and recording phone conversations to rely on later and cause trouble.
The only possibility I see of pursuing the deal is you directly contacting the seller. That will tell you if the problem was broker or seller. There is nothing unethical about parties to a transaction talking direct, even if both have brokers or lawyers for that matter(here at least). You are still unhappy it fell apart,part of you doubts the transaction is dead, so maybe you need to do that, if only to put the episode to bed forever. And if you do it, DO NOT badmouth the broker,that way lies trouble.

 

[BandB]

I also think you're blaming the wrong person. I suspect the owner had already told the broker plus I suspect your contingencies were unnecessary and excessive. You don't need to add contingencies on top of survey and sea trial. You can reject any boat you want to after survey or sea trial. You don't need to add anything else.

Now, you've also gone public which by doing so would mean if you made a side deal with the seller, you'd be liable in addition to the seller since you knew the broker was due a commission and you were aiding in circumventing. Oh, and I do know of a similar case in Washington where multiple parties lost in such a situation.

 

[salishpaddler]

My question was entirely hypothetical. There are no actual or potential side deals, nor will there be. This boat will never be owned by me. I was simply curious about how such a scenario would play out. I've taken my new broker's advice to look elsewhere. However, I will state that I had told my then-broker in advance that I wanted to add contingencies to validate my expenses associated with flying to the PNW. As an inexperienced out-of-town buyer, I depended on him to keep me out of trouble. He had the opportunity to review the addendum and counsel me on my addendum contingencies, since everything I did was through him and he stood to split the commission. At no time did I contact the selling broker or owner directly. Instead, he passed it on without even reviewing it. Hence, new buyer broker. So, bottom line, I feel screwed, but not certain who screwed me. Maybe I screwed myself. But he bailed out after receiving the seller's reply.

I once wanted a clause in the Agreement the seller empty the holding tank pre handover. The Broker didn`t like that, I remonstrated I wasn`t buying a tankful of someone else`s sewage, he didn`t like that either. Sale fell through for other reasons, I wanted warranties on work the seller had volunteered to do, he refused, I walked. I have to laugh at that, because that was indeed one of my contingencies and for the same reason.

My other key contingencies for this boat advertised as Bristol, not very clean, not turn key, but Bristol, were removing seagull stains from the canvas, my intention that the survey would include a mechanic to conduct an in-depth examination of the diesel engines, since one had apparently melted down and was replaced, resulting in a 1500 hour discrepancy between the two CAT 3208TA engines, a condition the selling broker was unwilling to explain in detail; an examination of all maintenance records, operator manuals and logs, expectation that all scheduled maintenance was documented and up-to-date; complete cycling of all systems, including galley appliances; sea trial that would test all machinery to its specified limits at WOT. This was apparently more than they were willing to do. I would prefer to know in advance if these are going to be problematic for the seller rather than learning after undertaking the expense of flying to the boat for the survey and sea trial.

As for another boat, my new broker is fully read in and he makes me aware of potential boats that meet my desires. The Tolly 44 in Portland is still on my list, but it lacks a bow thruster. I decided against the Uniflite 48. It's a fine boat at a good price, but it just doesn't thrill me.

Maybe someone else will have better luck with the boat in question.

 

[smitty477]

My question was entirely hypothetical. There are no actual or potential side deals, nor will there be. This boat will never be owned by me. I was simply curious about how such a scenario would play out. I've taken my new broker's advice to look elsewhere. However, I will state that I had told my then-broker in advance that I wanted to add contingencies to validate my expenses associated with flying to the PNW. As an inexperienced out-of-town buyer, I depended on him to keep me out of trouble. He had the opportunity to review the addendum and counsel me on my addendum contingencies, since everything I did was through him and he stood to split the commission. At no time did I contact the selling broker or owner directly. Instead, he passed it on without even reviewing it. Hence, new buyer broker. So, bottom line, I feel screwed, but not certain who screwed me. Maybe I screwed myself. But he bailed out after receiving the seller's reply.

I once wanted a clause in the Agreement the seller empty the holding tank pre handover. The Broker didn`t like that, I remonstrated I wasn`t buying a tankful of someone else`s sewage, he didn`t like that either. Sale fell through for other reasons, I wanted warranties on work the seller had volunteered to do, he refused, I walked. I have to laugh at that, because that was indeed one of my contingencies and for the same reason.

My other key contingencies for this boat advertised as Bristol, not very clean, not turn key, but Bristol, were removing seagull stains from the canvas, my intention that the survey would include a mechanic to conduct an in-depth examination of the diesel engines, since one had apparently melted down and was replaced, resulting in a 1500 hour discrepancy between the two CAT 3208TA engines, a condition the selling broker was unwilling to explain in detail; an examination of all maintenance records, operator manuals and logs, expectation that all scheduled maintenance was documented and up-to-date; complete cycling of all systems, including galley appliances; sea trial that would test all machinery to its specified limits at WOT. This was apparently more than they were willing to do. I would prefer to know in advance if these are going to be problematic for the seller rather than learning after undertaking the expense of flying to the boat for the survey and sea trial.

As for another boat, my new broker is fully read in and he makes me aware of potential boats that meet my desires. The Tolly 44 in Portland is still on my list, but it lacks a bow thruster. I decided against the Uniflite 48. It's a fine boat at a good price, but it just doesn't thrill me.

Maybe someone else will have better luck with the boat in question.

I thought we had concluded discussing the 48 C but i guess i was wrong...

"At no time did I contact the selling broker or owner directly."
You never contacted the selling broker.

"Instead, he passed it on without even reviewing it. Hence, new buyer broker."
Previously you said your buying broker was really good , but now it appears that you are not so sure and fired your buying broker as well.

So you do not know exactly who said what to whom and who may or may not be a problem in the transaction - you never saw the boat for yourself so you have no baseline or real feel for this boat in person.
You have made some very clear statements about the failure and lack of professionalism with this boat using names with 3rd hand information.

I do not know any of your folks but as a curiosity I contacted the selling broker who knows I am on the east coast, am not a buyer and was just interested in the boat and this problem. I did not learn too much in our exchange while it was limited but here are some observations from that exchange:
- he responded quickly
- he took the time to communicate with me
- he was very clear and concise
- I found his statements to be sincere
- as expected there are two versions to this story

Easy to get a hold of, easy to speak to, easy to understand.

 

[mramoo]

Smitty477, I have dealt with this broker in the past, and will "not" go there again. My wife and I were interest in a vessel that they had at their dock, we had looked at it several times, and was impressed with it. We made an offer, it was excepted with conditions of survey and sea trial. This vessel was listed as being in "Bristol condition". When it was pulled out of the water for the survey, the surveyor said that it was unsafe for sea trial. That is when our problems started, we backed out of the deal, and it took threating to getting legal assistance to get our funds back.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty477, I have dealt with this broker in the past, and will "not" go there again. My wife and I were interest in a vessel that they had at their dock, we had looked at it several times, and was impressed with it. We made an offer, it was excepted with conditions of survey and sea trial. This vessel was listed as being in "Bristol condition". When it was pulled out of the water for the survey, the surveyor said that it was unsafe for sea trial. That is when our problems started, we backed out of the deal, and it took threating to getting legal assistance to get our funds back.

Sorry to hear that - do you have any information on this particular boat that may be of help?

 

[salishpaddler]

I thought we had concluded discussing the 48 C but i guess i was wrong...
I guess you were. Sorry, but no one is forcing you to read the post and I'm still curious about why that boat is still sitting untended. I'm certain my requirements were not unreasonable and I'm certain I would have preferred making my requirements as the buyer clear in advance rather than learning the seller was going to be recalcitrant after I spend thousands on travel, survey and sea trial.

Smitty, there are two brokers at that brokerage, one friendlier than the other. My broker was dealing with the less friendly of the two. I don't know if they're partners or if one has the controlling interest in the firm.

I did not say I fired my buyer broker. He walked, essentially firing me. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and not speak ill of him. But in retrospect, he did fail to review my contingencies and he did walk, upset that my contingencies (that he failed to review) embarrassed him with his boss, to whom the selling broker complained, and didn't even advise me the deal was dead until I telephoned him to inquire about wiring instructions for the deposit. I was referred to my new buyer broker by a good friend, another boat owner in Seattle who followed these events in real time and I can't say enough good things about him. I wish I had known about him earlier.

I am personally aware of at least one other local would-be buyer who examined the boat on site with intentions of buying it and determined it was being misrepresented. He walked. The surveyor I was going to engage had misgivings about the brokerage based on previous experiences.

 

[smitty477]

Smitty, I did not say I fired my buyer broker. He walked, essentially firing me. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and not speak ill of him. But in retrospect, he did fail to review my contingencies and he did walk, upset that my contingencies embarrassed him with his boss, to whom the selling broker complained, and didn't even advise me the deal was dead until I telephoned him to inquire about wiring instructions for the deposit. I was referred to my new buyer broker by a good friend, another boat owner in Seattle who followed these events in real time and I can't say enough good things about him. I wish I had known about him earlier.

More new information - your buying broker which you had said was a pro fired you.
He (the initial buying broker) told you to never speak to the listing agent and you followed that advice.

The likelihood that you do not know the entire story is very high.
Your statements concerning all of these folks are very hard to follow.

 

[BandB]

More new information - your buying broker which you had said was a pro fired you.
He (the initial buying broker) told you to never speak to the listing agent and you followed that advice.

The likelihood that you do not know the entire story is very high.
Your statements concerning all of these folks are very hard to follow.

I think you need to review your entire approach. Whether your buying broker was good or horrible, the fact is he fired you. Someone wanting to sell boats, wanting customers, decided they did not want to deal with you. Based on all you've posted in this thread, I can certainly understand that. I wouldn't want to deal with you if this thread is indicative of what it would be like. I'm trying to say that constructively, so perhaps you'll read it all again and think about it. However, for a customer to be fired by a broker, indicates that broker at least feels that customer is not worth the trouble and/or the damage to the broker's reputation.

 

[salishpaddler]

As I said, my then-broker failed to review my contingencies on the addendum page, something he was being paid to do by virtue of splitting the commission. Instead, he forwarded the signed P&S Agreement without comment. In my view, that was a serious mistake, since I was depending on him to navigate this purchase on my behalf. He acknowledged that he overlooked it. He fired me because he was embarrassed by his failure to review a signed contract prior to forwarding it. That's the size of it.

I've dealt/am dealing with a total of four brokers thus far in my boat search. As an out-of-town buyer, a buyer's broker is a necessity for me. Of those four brokers, two were/are a pleasure to deal with. The other two are those involved in the transaction in question.

Am I ignorant and unschooled? Yes. Unreasonable? No. It's my money.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

I am trying to understand both sides of this as a long distance buyer. I think alot of your contingencies were probably unnecessary and could be addressed at the sea trial... IE you want the tanked pumped have it done by the selling broker during the sea trial with your surveyor.... if you get lucky maybe the tank will burp...



We are also looking for a boat to purchase while we are 1400 miles away... when we find a boat of real interest our broker will facetime with us while touring the boat... This normally takes about an hour he can show any areas of interest and we can ask to see any areas of our interest. If we both agree that the boat will work. We get the history of sales of like boats from sold boats then together make a fair offer based on that data.... if we can agree on a sales price we fly up for the sea trial and survey.... it doesn't have to be a contentious process and ultimately the buyer has final say on the deal.... good luck with your boat search.

 

[BandB]

it doesn't have to be a contentious process and ultimately the buyer has final say on the deal.... good luck with your boat search.

That's what seems to be overlooked is that if they buyer wants to walk away, he can, for whatever reason he wants.

A contract on a boat the way it's done today isn't a commitment to purchase as much as it's an option to buy. It gives the buyer the chance to survey and trial and decide whether to proceed or not. It's actually very one sided in favor of the buyer as the seller is locked in and the buyer isn't.

 

[Antares]

Mister Paddler,
As your story winds out it seems that the order of events goes like this.


1. You made an offer on a boat and it was accepted.
2. You then submitted additional requirements the owner instructed the broker to reject.
3. You teed off on the broker for not submitting them when the broker told you they were rejected and not reasonable.
4. You started at least 2 threads here to disparage the broker and knock the boat for not being perfect.

5. You enlisted a buyers broker to salvage the deal.
6. The buyers broker told you the deal was dead and also fired you.


Is this basically correct?

 

[salishpaddler]

Mister Paddler,
As your story winds out it seems that the order of events goes like this.


1. You made an offer on a boat and it was accepted.
2. You then submitted additional requirements the owner instructed the broker to reject.
3. You teed off on the broker for not submitting them when the broker told you they were rejected and not reasonable.
4. You started at least 2 threads here to disparage the broker and knock the boat for not being perfect.

5. You enlisted a buyers broker to salvage the deal.
6. The buyers broker told you the deal was dead and also fired you.


Is this basically correct?

Not at all.

1. After I found this boat, I told my broker of my interest in it. In fact, I had no broker at the time. He asked if I had personally contacted the selling brokerage. When I replied that I hadn't, he offered to represent me as a licensed broker, which he is. As an out-of-town buyer, I accepted his offer, based on satisfactory previous business dealings. He communicated to the seller my initial offer on the boat. That offer was rejected but after negotiation we agreed upon a satisfactory price.

2. My broker visited the boat on my behalf but was allowed only to walk through it. He told me the boat was attractive but by the strong musty odor mixed with diesel throughout the boat, and mildew in the engine room, it was evident the boat had not been allowed to have fresh air. The selling broker also refused to start the engines. Because of my broker's observations and the selling broker's unwillingness to be forthcoming about the cause of the engine failure and replacement, and because of his refusal to even start the engines, I told my broker I was concerned that the engine failure and replacement was maintenance-related and that I wanted to have a rigorous mechanical survey performed. I added contingencies to the addendum on the P&S Agreement.

3. The selling broker/owner rejected my contingencies without recourse. When I questioned my broker, he acknowledged that he had submitted the addendum with my contingencies without first reviewing them. If he had reviewed my contingencies in advance, we could have discussed them and I would have heeded his advice. He failed to do that.

4. I became upset with my broker for his failure to review my contingencies and his decision to walk away, abandoning me. As for the boat itself, the seller description as Bristol condition, even now, isn't mere puffery. It's specific. There are any number of other adjectives the broker could have chosen that are open to interpretation. Bristol isn't one of them. If it isn't in Bristol condition, then it's being misrepresented. How many boats on offer include that specific term? The photo that gives the lie to it and suggests it's not as represented is the one they deleted from their advertisement afterward.

5. I did not and would not hire another broker to salvage this deal.

6. Based on solid references, I hired my current buyer's broker to assist me in finding a satisfactory boat other than this one. Of course I related to him my experience with this boat and he advised I forget about it and search for a more suitable vessel from a different brokerage/seller. I am heeding his advice.

 

[Stabi]

With some Turkey Day time on my hands, I read this long thread. Was this Bristol England, or Bristol Washington; an unincorporated community in Kittitas County

I've had a less-than-pleasant experience with one of the brokers at Port Gardner Yacht Brokerage in Everett WA. An arrogant prick who thinks his boats are solid gold (they're not) and who reacts defensively if a prospective buyer points out imperfections that most people would acknowledge as true.

All I can say is treat people the way you want to be treated,

and GET OVER IT!

Have you considered spending a week at the Seattle Boat Show to see first hand what the condition of these boats are in?

Good luck in your search, glad I am not presently selling.

 

[salishpaddler]

Have you considered spending a week at the Seattle Boat Show to see first hand what the condition of these boats are in?

Funny you should mention that. The answer is yes, I will be attending.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I hate all this "he said, I said, stuff". Most brokers are honest,some exceptional (some members here on TF), As in any profession, there are going to be some less than steller performers and some real scumbags... Just as there are going to be some unreasonable buyers and potential buyers....

 

[Lepke]

I've owned boats and ships. If I made a list, I'd probably miss some. I use to sell my vessels myself. Then I discovered the joy of having a broker. They deal with all the lookers without funds, the lookers without a hope of financing, the lookers with limited funds and a long list of demands tailored to bring the price into their range. Whatever the broker commission, if I was doing it, it wouldn't be enough.

Whenever someone gives me a long list of minor imperfections, I don't read past the first demand before saying no. And I won't deal with them past that point. Usually they don't have the funds or financing. Or they're overly fussy people that expect everything to be like new. And they'll be a problem long after they buy the vessel.

Near the coast, seagulls are part of life. Get over it. If you buy the boat, you can clean the canvass.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

With some Turkey Day time on my hands, I read this long thread. Was this Bristol England, or Bristol Washington; an unincorporated community in Kittitas County



All I can say is treat people the way you want to be treated,

and GET OVER IT!

Have you considered spending a week at the Seattle Boat Show to see first hand what the condition of these boats are in?

Good luck in your search, glad I am not presently selling.

Agreed! seagull poop happens..

 

[BruceK]

I`m not sure, but I think I read that if the boat failed survey the OP wanted reimbursement for the expenses of inspection, travel, surveys, etc, based on the boat being advertised as in "Bristol" condition. "Bristol" probably needs defining, but I`m thinking it meant "without fault". It is very unlikely any boat is, on thorough examination, "without fault". As B&B says, a purchase agreement is little more than an option in the buyers favour while he does "due diligence".
So,"pissing on the ashes"(of the failed deal),I suspect the seller was scared off by the knock on effects if the OP found the boat wanting. This situation was partly the result of the then buyers broker acting as a conduit rather than a filter/adviser, by just sending on the OP`s requirements without examination or question.
Next boat I buy I will enquire if it has osmosis or has ever had it. If the answer is "no" I`d like a provision in the Agreement the seller pays for surveys and haulout etc if the answer proves untrue. It will be interesting to see the response, it`s another form of holding the seller to representations and raising a liability if the representation was not true. Reality is it would more likely just flush out the truth early. Perhaps that is what the OP`s "contingencies" did, they flushed out that on survey the boat would not mirror its advertised condition,and it was better to let the deal sink then and there,rather than later.
Which may say something about truth in advertising, but that`s another issue. The one thing I take out of a boat advertisement is that it is for sale,and even then I allow it may not be "seriously" for sale.

 

[dhays]

6. Based on solid references, I hired my current buyer's broker to assist me in finding a satisfactory boat other than this one. Of course I related to him my experience with this boat and he advised I forget about it and search for a more suitable vessel from a different brokerage/seller. I am heeding his advice.

I think your current buyers broker gave you great advice there. Move on to another boat and listen carefully to the advice that your broker gives you.



Keep in mind that brokers will describe boats using a variety of terms, none of which really mean anything. It sounds like you got yourself hung up on the description of "Bristol" condition. I think that was a mistake on your part, albeit an understandable one.



Also remember that here in in the PNW we wash our boats and then take pictures of them. This time of year, a couple weeks later a boat in outside moorage will be covered in the excrement and trash of birds as well as start to grow green slime on the northern side. It is unreasonable to expect a boat to be washed weekly while it is waiting for sale.



With reasonable expectations, professional advice, and a modicum of patience I think you will find yourself a great boat you can enjoy.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am not taking sides on this discussion as I have not fully read all the posts and I feel like I need more information to take a side.

I think advertising a boat as Bristol is dangerous. Bristol is not a standard but an interpretation. My interpretation is “better than new”.

I have recently looked at the add and I see no mention of the word Bristol, I assume it has been removed, I don’t know for a fact. This tells me that the broker found the word to be causing him problems. I have looked at the pictures and I see a very nice boat. Would the average person call that boat Bristol? I have to say the answer would be close. Close enough that an out of town buyer should have reservations if he thinks he is paying a high price because the boat is Bristol. Not sure why the brokers couldn’t work through the list of demands but I know I am missing some info here.

Did the buyer’s broker fail. Absolutely!! Maybe he quit, doesn’t matter. He should have looked through your offer and contingencies and discussed a best practices method of protecting your interest.

Are you an unreasonable buyer. Don’t know, you wouldn’t be the first and it’s your buyer brokers job to help you learn what’s reasonable.

Is the selling broker unreasonable. Hard to say but since Bristol no longer shows up in the add, i’m Guessing he is cavalier and lacks true service skills.

To be fair, I have been approached by buyers that I recognized as being to much work and I had my broker blow them out. That said, I never had one of my boats sit on the market for more than 6 months.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I’m reviving an old thread here to vent and rant having just been burned by a less than honest broker. I will state up front that I have little to no respect for commissioned sales people and that in the end is what a yacht broker is, commissioned sales. With one exception all of the commissioned sales people in any market I’ve dealt with in my life have run the gamut from ignorant of what they are selling to down right dishonest. Usually I can spot the dishonesty quickly and walk before it costs me more than a bit of my time. I got duped this time.

I just walked from a purchase post survey. The boat failed survey miserably. Costs to rectify the issues found would be in the range of 3X the purchase price, likely more. This comes after the costs for air fare + hotel + car rental for the initial visit and decision to make an offer. Then round two of air fare + hotel + car rental to attend surveys and hopefully schedule needed work. Add in the costs of engine survey and condition and valuation survey and we’re not talking pocket change.

Upon questioning the broker post survey regarding his knowledge of the condition of the boat he inadvertently let slip he knew some of the bigger issues. Big enough issues I would have walked before making an offer. Not disclosing that at the time of offer is at best unscrupulous. Possibly, depending upon location, illegal. And his story changed throughout the post survey “conversation”, names, places etc.

I’m not new to this having been on the water for my entire life professionally and as a recreational boater. I don’t have stars in my eyes and I’m not wearing rose colored glasses. I do understand that buying a used boat is a risk, it will take money and time to get it squared away the way I want and need. I do understand that the survey process is about making the final decision and that I may in my own best judgment walk eating the costs. This is not my first survey and purchase. None, not a one, have been fully above board honest and competent. But this is by far the worst.


My advice to buyers is to get EVERYTHING in writing. Every statement made about the boat’s condition by the broker. Take notes, amend the sales offer to show all said. Add a clause that if anything has been intentionally omitted that you are to be reimbursed for all costs, not just haulouts and surveys.

This does not mean you can expect more that a return of your deposit if you simply don’t like what surveys find, that is the risk you assume in purchasing a used boat. It does mean that if the broker lies or withholds information they will be held liable for all costs incurred. I know this is not possible, I understand that the potential legal fees to attempt to enforce the clause will likely exceed the funds recovered. The intent is to put the broker on notice that from the minute you consider making an offer you will hold the broker responsible for his / her actions and all costs incurred by you for their intentional dishonesty in any way.

In the end my rant is not about the $$$. It’s about honesty and integrity. Something that I have almost always found lacking in commissioned sales.

No, I won’t post the brokerage and broker’s names here because I did not follow my own advice therefore I can’t prove anything. Nor will I bad mouth the brokerage and broker to any of the other professionals here on the waterfront. The boating community is small and tight knit on most waterfronts. I may well have to do business with the surveyors and other professionals I hired for this failed purchase again.

If any of you are considering a purchase in California I will in private conversation reveal the brokerage and broker’s names. If you are considering purchasing from the same brokerage and broker I will disclose the details of the pre offer and post survey conversations.


End rant. Climbing off my soap box now. Be careful out there when buying used boats.

 

[dhays]

Very sorry.

When I bought my last sailboat, I was very happy with the buyers broker I used (Debbie Yeend) and was not particularly happy with the selling broker down in Marina Del Rey. They were less than forthcoming about the boat we bought and its history.

Debbie also sold my last two sailboats. She was scrupulous about how the boats were represented. I’m sure her innate honestly likely reduced the number of offers we received, but as my representative, I want a broker to be at least as ethical as I am.

When I bought my current used boat, the broker was outstanding. Completely upfront about the boats known issues and history to the point that the broker spotted potential problems that the surveyor missed. Now, the fact that the broker in this case also happens to be the owner of North Pacific Yachts makes it a bit of a special case.

My point is that good brokers are out there. Unfortunately, as buyers we don’t get to pick the brokers that list boats we may be interested in. However, as sellers we can try to ensure that the brokers we use to list our boats meet the same high standards we would like to see as buyers. Unfortunately, I think many sellers don’t give a rip and just want the boat sold regardless of how it is done.